Irish judge stops extradition of Polish citizen...

bear1 · 15-03-2018 11:34PM #1

... due to potential risk of an unfair trial in Poland.
Seems to be escaping people's attention but it's not going down too well with avid PiS supporters.
With the eu voicing their concerns over how the government in Poland has completely reformed their judiciary system and replaced judges with their own branded judges, taken over the main television station and the whole **** you Europe attitude, it seems it was only a matter of time before it trickled down further.
I fully understand the judges concerns of the person receiving a fair trial in his native country and that allowing the ecj rule on it - we are after all a union based on democracy and fairness.
Even the polish supreme court has criticized the government's reforms.
However, has a can of worms now been opened which has started to damage relations?
I'm here in Warsaw at the moment and already the racial slurs have started, some even calling for burning the flag on Saturday.
Thoughts?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ireland-refuses-artur-celmer-extradition-poland-justice-reforms-ecj

Jim Bob Scratcher · 15-03-2018 11:36PM

We'll just have to start burning Polish flags if they do that :pac:

bear1 · 15-03-2018 11:46PM

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

We'll just have to start burning Polish flags if they do that :pac:

You'd nearly hope that with a party called PiS... that the judge missed a golden opportunity to say "they must be taking the PiS".

*tumbleweed

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 12:01AM

It's PC gone mad the drug dealing scumbag should be deported along with our so called Judge.

bear1 · 16-03-2018 12:06AM

Dr Brown wrote: »

It's PC gone mad the drug dealing scumbag should be deported along with our so called Judge.

Except there is a thing called innocent until proven guilty.
If the person is likely not to receive a fair trial based on large changes to the judiciary system which has attracted complaints from the eu, the judge is correct to halt the extradition pending advise from the ecj.

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 12:08AM

bear1 wrote: »

Except there is a thing called innocent until proven guilty.
If the person is likely not to receive a fair trial based on large changes to the judiciary system which has attracted complaints from the eu, the judge is correct to halt the extradition pending advise from the ecj.

It's not our problem. If hes dealing drugs he should be deported end of story.

The_Kew_Tour · 16-03-2018 12:12AM

Would Polish accept it if other way around? Like **** they would

bear1 · 16-03-2018 12:23AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Would Polish accept it if other way around? Like **** they would

If it was an Irish citizen and our system had been compromised so heavily you mean?

bear1 · 16-03-2018 12:25AM

Dr Brown wrote: »

It's not our problem. If hes dealing drugs he should be deported end of story.

"If" being the key word there.
If implies a potentiality not a confirmation of crimes.
And if he is in Ireland it is our problem as it's our taxes that pay for this and the extradition.

greencap · 16-03-2018 12:28AM

bear1 wrote: »

I'm here in Warsaw at the moment and already the racial slurs have started, some even calling for burning the flag on Saturday.
Thoughts?

Thats a bit ungrateful, isn't it.

Wonder did they buy the flag with money sent back from a relative working in a lidl in Arklow.

Lmklad · 16-03-2018 12:29AM

We live in a civilised society governed by rules. The EU has set the bar on what those rules are. The Polish government has changed their legal system so that the offices of justice and prosecutions is now the same. The Supreme Court there has stated this is an attack on the Constitution, the government has just removed half the Supreme Court judges.

Our High Court has a duty uphold the rule of Irish and EU law, regardless of our personal opinions of the alleged offender, that rule of law must be followed. The Judge is perfectly correct in referring this case to Europe.

splinter65 · 16-03-2018 12:30AM

greencap wrote: »

Thats a bit ungrateful, isn't it.

Wonder did they buy the flag with money sent back from a relative working in a lidl in Arklow.

Why do you think Polish people need to grateful to Ireland ?

greencap · 16-03-2018 12:32AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Why do you think Polish people need to grateful to Ireland ?

They're all over our land of opportunity.
From sea to shining sea.

Lmklad · 16-03-2018 12:37AM

bear1 wrote: »

...
I'm here in Warsaw at the moment and already the racial slurs have started, some even calling for burning the flag on Saturday.
Thoughts?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ireland-refuses-artur-celmer-extradition-poland-justice-reforms-ecj

Good luck burning flags as was recently shown, EU regs ensure they are fire resistant

splinter65 · 16-03-2018 12:38AM

greencap wrote: »

They're all over our land of opportunity.
From sea to shining sea.

So?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 12:40AM

The Irish judiciary isn’t fit for purpose. It isn’t up to this judge to decide whether the judicial system of another EU country is up to standards or not. Most European countries have totally different systems.

If the EU decides that Poland isn’t compliant then it can decide the penalty.

I mean I personally think most judges should be elected.

bear1 · 16-03-2018 12:41AM

Lmklad wrote: »

Good luck burning flags as was recently shown, EU regs ensure they are fire resistant

They can go ahead and burn it, it's nothing compared to the burning of it north of the border

Funny enough the backlash both in the media and out and about are from those who support the party.
Just for balance, I've talked to quite a few who are delighted that the judge has pissed off the party.

greencap · 16-03-2018 12:42AM

splinter65 wrote: »

So?

so be grateful. no dunnes no money for flags. no flags no flag burning. no flag burning no fun.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 12:43AM

The Polish reforms look like an American system to me. Judges there are elected by parliament or the electorate, or selected by the president subject to confirmation hearings.

bear1 · 16-03-2018 12:45AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The Irish judiciary isn’t fit for purpose. It isn’t up to this judge to decide whether the judicial system of another EU country is up to standards or not. Most European countries have totally different systems.

If the EU decides that Poland isn’t compliant then it can decide the penalty.

I mean I personally think most judges should be elected.

Hence that's why she is referring it to the ecj.
And apparently she can decide that, just the same as a french/german/Estonian judge can refer judgement to a higher court.
The eu has already said that the polish system isn't compliant but this is the first ever case that will test it.
Judges should be elected by who?
In Poland they removed independently assigned judges and inserted judges which are connected to the party, do you see anything wrong with that?

Lmklad · 16-03-2018 12:49AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It isn’t up to this judge to decide whether the judicial system of another EU country is up to standards or not. Most European countries have totally different systems.

If the EU decides that Poland isn’t compliant then it can decide the penalty.

Except it is up to the High Court to make this decision. It’s one of their functions. The EU will decide if Poland isn’t compliant, that is the reason this Judge has referred this case to Europe.

splinter65 · 16-03-2018 12:55AM

greencap wrote: »

so be grateful. no dunnes no money for flags. no flags no flag burning. no flag burning no fun.

Go to bed you’re drunk.

Dr Brown · 16-03-2018 12:56AM

bear1 wrote: »

In Poland they removed independently assigned judges and inserted judges which are connected to the party, do you see anything wrong with that?

Most of the Judges in Ireland are either members of FF or FG.

greencap · 16-03-2018 01:08AM

splinter65 wrote: »

Go to bed you’re drunk.

on zywiec. from my local corner shop. where pioter works.

Irish Guitarist · 16-03-2018 01:54AM

I couldn't care less about the politics of Poland. If he's guilty get him the fuck out of the country.

There's always some excuse as to why criminals don't get a proper sentence here. That's not a fair trial either.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 02:13AM

Dr Brown wrote: »

It's PC gone mad

nope.

Dr Brown wrote: »

the drug dealing scumbag should be deported along with our so called Judge.

nope. we can't deport our judge as she is irish. also, we can't deport this individual because the polish judicial system is currently under attack from what i understand.

Dr Brown wrote: »

It's not our problem. If hes dealing drugs he should be deported end of story.

it's our problem, he has to stay as he can't get a fair trial. end of story.

end of the road · 16-03-2018 02:14AM

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The Irish judiciary isn’t fit for purpose. It isn’t up to this judge to decide whether the judicial system of another EU country is up to standards or not. Most European countries have totally different systems.

If the EU decides that Poland isn’t compliant then it can decide the penalty.

I mean I personally think most judges should be elected.

in this case our judiciary is perfectly fine. if a justice system of another EU country is under attack then the judge can decide that it isn't up to standard and isn't fit for purpose and can decide not to deport somebody but refer the matter to europe.

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I couldn't care less about the politics of Poland. If he's guilty get him the **** out of the country.

There's always some excuse as to why criminals don't get a proper sentence here. That's not a fair trial either.

currently he isn't guilty given he hasn't been found guilty. so therefore he can go nowhere until the EU says otherwise.

bear1 · 16-03-2018 08:56AM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

I couldn't care less about the politics of Poland. If he's guilty get him the fuck out of the country.

There's always some excuse as to why criminals don't get a proper sentence here. That's not a fair trial either.

Again, if. He hasn't been proven guilty yet.
Why would you deport someone who, according to the law, is still innocent?

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 11:33AM

bear1 wrote: »

Hence that's why she is referring it to the ecj.
And apparently she can decide that, just the same as a french/german/Estonian judge can refer judgement to a higher court.
The eu has already said that the polish system isn't compliant but this is the first ever case that will test it.
Judges should be elected by who?
In Poland they removed independently assigned judges and inserted judges which are connected to the party, do you see anything wrong with that?

Impeachment should be a bit harder but as I said the US political classes or the electorate choose or ratify judges.

Elected by the district the judges serve.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 16-03-2018 11:34AM

bear1 wrote: »

Again, if. He hasn't been proven guilty yet.
Why would you deport someone who, according to the law, is still innocent?

That’s the way extradition works.

_Brian · 16-03-2018 11:49AM

bear1 wrote: »

... due to potential risk of an unfair trial in Poland.
Seems to be escaping people's attention but it's not going down too well with avid PiS supporters.
With the eu voicing their concerns over how the government in Poland has completely reformed their judiciary system and replaced judges with their own branded judges, taken over the main television station and the whole **** you Europe attitude, it seems it was only a matter of time before it trickled down further.
I fully understand the judges concerns of the person receiving a fair trial in his native country and that allowing the ecj rule on it - we are after all a union based on democracy and fairness.
Even the polish supreme court has criticized the government's reforms.
However, has a can of worms now been opened which has started to damage relations?
I'm here in Warsaw at the moment and already the racial slurs have started, some even calling for burning the flag on Saturday.
Thoughts?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/ireland-refuses-artur-celmer-extradition-poland-justice-reforms-ecj

The whole thing is built on a false premise that drug dealers are somehow entitled to a fair trial. If we got over this one simple misunderstanding I feel dealing in drugs would become less common indeed.

Irish judge stops extradition of Polish citizen...

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