Man cleared of murdering trespasser in home with garden shears

Manic Moran · 15-03-2018 05:07PM

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That is bad advice in the US, for four reasons.

1) Warning shots are not usually authorised in the US (Indeed, for professionals such as police or military in domestic operations, they are often specifically forbidden in policy). If you are pulling a trigger, you are discharging lethal force. If you are discharging lethal force, the situation is evidently so bad that warning shots won't cut it, because, well, it's so bad that you feel that it's worth risking a life, which is what happens when a trigger is pulled.

2) What goes up must come down. Some ammunition may not penetrate, some may. But why take the risk?

3) There is no need to anyway. Castle doctrine is quiet well entrenched in the US. Unless there are unusual circumstances, there is usually a default position in favour of the homeowner that he felt under threat.

4) If you're shooting, you're almost certainly shooting more than one round. Weird 'warning shot'.

AlphabetCards · 15-03-2018 05:07PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A camouflaged ceramic Commando knife - sorry buddy, that's an offensive weapon. Having one of those by your bed and then killing an intruder with it would certainly give the impression that you were planning exactly that.

Unless of course, you've earned a fairbairn-sykes commando dagger and it just happens to be accompanying your old regimental regalia by your bed...

Wildcard7 · 15-03-2018 05:10PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

A camouflaged ceramic Commando knife - sorry buddy, that's an offensive weapon. Having one of those by your bed and then killing an intruder with it would certainly give the impression that you were planning exactly that.

How do I plan to kill a person that
a) I don't know
b) I've never spoken to
c) doesn't even know about my plan, but comes to me of their own free will
d) has no access to my domicile?

Are you sure you understand what a "plan" is?

pilly · 15-03-2018 05:12PM

rustynutz wrote: »

I'm sorry, but that sounds incredibly naive, you are assuming the person that has broken into your house is sane and reasonable, and that if disturbed they will make their way to the nearest exit without any fuss. The reality is, they are more likely try and hurt or kill you, than not, particularly if you are in a doorway, or in their path for escape. While you make an attempt to hit them, or whatever non lethal force you are suggesting, they will be fighting back, and are probably more used to being in this situation than you are so more likely to win.

I am 6'2 and trained in self defence and I can tell you that the last thing I would be doing is getting into a fist fight, or wrestling match with an (possibly armed, and/or high) intruder. Unless they ran for the nearest exit (unlikely) I would be attacking with whatever the nearest weapon is to hand, not out of some Hardman blood lust, but because this reduces the risk of the intruder hurting me or my family.

I don't think its any harm to have thought about what you would do in this scenario in advance, however unlikely it is to happen, rather than trying to figure it out for the first time when the intruder is already in your home.

Look, the reality is most burglars run if they encounter a dog never mind another person.

But let's say that I find myself in the VERY unlikely scenario of facing a burglar who's not running, I'm not saying I'm not going to hit them with something. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to deliberately try to kill them just to be on the safe side.

All you have to do is knock someone down for long enough to get past them.

It's like the age old argument in America about the guns, give all the good guys guns and no-one innocent will ever be killed. Not true is it?

The more violent a society becomes the more violent the base scum in that society become.

....... · 15-03-2018 05:15PM

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Zubeneschamali · 15-03-2018 05:18PM

Wildcard7 wrote: »

How do I plan to kill a person that
a) I don't know
b) I've never spoken to
c) doesn't even know about my plan, but comes to me of their own free will
d) has no access to my domicile?

Are you sure you understand what a "plan" is?

Yes, I am absolutely sure.

Suppose I set a lethal mantrap in my home and it kills a burglar. Do you think the fact that I don't know his name and I have never spoken to him would be a defence in court? Nope.

....... · 15-03-2018 05:19PM

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....... · 15-03-2018 05:22PM

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pilly · 15-03-2018 05:26PM

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I'm talking about the posters on here who "claim" they would kill them stone dead just to be sure to be sure.

Yes, my house has been broken into and I've chased scumbags out of my back garden. One of them threw a bottle at me, I still didn't feel the need to blow his brains out mind you.

I was also attacked in Dublin City Centre.

In none of those cases did I feel murder was the appropriate response.

Zubeneschamali · 15-03-2018 05:26PM

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Any of those could be your defense in court. Best of luck. I hope it works as well as yourman's "broken shears" story.

Neyite · 15-03-2018 05:35PM

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Maybe they thought they were appearing on Come Dine with Me?

iamwhoiam · 15-03-2018 05:39PM

pilly wrote: »

I'm talking about the posters on here who "claim" they would kill them stone dead just to be sure to be sure.

Yes, my house has been broken into and I've chased scumbags out of my back garden. One of them threw a bottle at me, I still didn't feel the need to blow his brains out mind you.

I was also attacked in Dublin City Centre.

In none of those cases did I feel murder was the appropriate response.

I just know that all my instincts would kick in if my kids or family were in danger or if I thought they could be harmed . Then so be it if I can put my hand on a knife and ram into anyone threatening my family . If that knife hits an artery and he or she dies then I would have no regrets

....... · 15-03-2018 05:46PM

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DEFTLEFTHAND · 15-03-2018 05:54PM

I'd imagine 99 times out of 100 the last thing a burglar wants is a confrontation with the property owner.

Act in self defence for sure but I wouldn't attack them just for the sake of it. It could bring much worse trouble down at your door.

Zubeneschamali · 15-03-2018 06:41PM

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You are a more charitable person than I am!

I think it is obvious that the "broken shears" is in fact a weapon, prepared for use in advance. And in "stabbing out twice" he got both the guys lungs. These were not slashes or shallow cuts.

In effect, he impaled the guy with a sword and got away with it.

Galwayguy35 · 15-03-2018 07:56PM

Most burglars will unfortunately only target people who they think can't defend themselves so cases like this will be rare but it's one less scumbag in the country so not a bad result I suppose.

Occasionally though scumbags like that POS Frog Ward will attack someone they think is vulnerable and defenceless and find out it's not the case when the homeowner fights back.

rustynutz · 15-03-2018 09:02PM

pilly wrote: »

Look, the reality is most burglars run if they encounter a dog never mind another person.

But let's say that I find myself in the VERY unlikely scenario of facing a burglar who's not running, I'm not saying I'm not going to hit them with something. What I'm saying is that I'm not going to deliberately try to kill them just to be on the safe side.

All you have to do is knock someone down for long enough to get past them.

It's like the age old argument in America about the guns, give all the good guys guns and no-one innocent will ever be killed. Not true is it?

The more violent a society becomes the more violent the base scum in that society become.

I agree with what your saying so far as i wouldn't set out to deliberately kill an intruder, but I wouldn't be taking a gamble on getting close enough to them to "knock them over" if there was anything else nearby I could use, be it a hurley, kitchen knife, shotgun or whatever. The intruder has already shown an act of aggression by breaking into a house they know is occupied in the first place, and you would have to assume they were armed in case they encounter a homeowner

Esel · 15-03-2018 10:35PM

GarIT wrote: »

That's why I said should have the right to not does have.

I believe if someone has broken into your home and is still inside your property you should be entitled to shoot them in the back of the head as they try to run away.

I think the home should be treated as sacred and protected within the law. Breaking into somebodys home is only beaten in terms of seriousness by, murder, manslaughter, rape and pedophilia. If you catch somebody breaking into your home you should own them, you should be allowed to do what you want to them without the law getting involved. If you want to stop a burglar leaving your home so you can beat them for longer that's totally acceptable in my books.

Move to Texas and give us all a break.

Graces7 · 16-03-2018 08:14AM

rick_shaw wrote: »

agree entirely

apart from the foggy and dubious testimony which casts doubt on how surprised he was to see this now dead person , the defendant engaged in savage violence to " defend " himself

Me too and I wonder what posters here would REALLY do in that situation?

iamwhoiam · 16-03-2018 10:08AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Me too and I wonder what posters here would REALLY do in that situation?

Nobody knows what they would really do .We cant know but we can imagine what we might if our kids were in danger .

16-03-2018 10:19AM

seamus wrote: »

So if you find someone in your house and they stop, put their hands up and say, "I don't want any trouble", there's little you can do but call the gardai. You can't pull out a gun and shoot them in the back. Or the chest.

Not knowing the law can be really stressful. I suck at law. But the one time someone broke into my house - he got cornered by my Canine and could not escape. I found him there as I happened to come down for water. He had been immobile and too scared to move for some time. Made him tea and called the guards and kept him there until they arrived. While said teeth baring animal basically stood over him.

For quite some time afterwards I started having all kinds of nightmares of him prosecuting me for kidnapping or some level of unlawful imprisonment. To this day I remain so ignorant of the law that I do not know if there was some - lots - or absolutely no potential for that to ever happen. Was I in any small or large way wrong in the eyes of the law to prevent him the chance to get up and leave? Even if only through the inaction of not calling off the animal?

I genuinely do not know where my rights begin and end on what I can or can not do to an intruder. I should rectify that I guess. It is somewhere on my to do list.

sbsquarepants · 16-03-2018 10:25AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But the one time someone broke into my house - he got cornered by my Canine and could not escape.

Do you watch game of thrones by any chance?

He'd have met the same fate as Ramsey Bolton if I'd come down for water and discovered that scene in my kitchen!

16-03-2018 10:31AM

Fraid I have neither watched it nor read it. But it is somewhere way down the reading list I have. A quick google tells me he was torn apart by dogs?

The comical thing there is that while he can be quite threatening and insanely scary he appears to be something of a pacifist. So said burglar probably could have simply stood up and ambled out the door without any fear of harm. He just did not know that.

The only time I have seen him in violence was when three large dogs set on him in the forest and he defended himself in a display of what I can only describe as combat ballet. He simply destroyed them with an ease that was almost beautiful to behold. But he seemed intensely depressed for days afterwards like he had somehow compromised his own moral compass in life.

sbsquarepants · 16-03-2018 10:40AM

He's the Mister Miagee of the canine world "no learn doggy karate to fight taxAhcruel san, learn doggy karate so no have to fight":D

16-03-2018 10:44AM

Hah that exactly how I like to picture it as it happens. You read my mind.

In fact that is basically what I teach my 4ish year old son and 7 year old daugther as we teach them Jutitsu and a few other things. That we teach them to master violence so they never have to fight.

But I guess the particular species he is means he is more natural at combat. Whereas house dogs have probably had a lot of that bred out of them. He just moved in a form of fluidity that day that I never even imagined him capable of. Still gives me goosebumps on the arm skin when I imagine it.

sbsquarepants · 16-03-2018 10:49AM

He's some wolf hybrid or other isn't he?

Don't have any dogs at the moment but always did growing up, mostly big breeds. I think there's a fairly pronounced trait in them that the more it looks like it's capable of killing you on a whim, the less it actually wants to kill you.

It's the damn Chihuahuas you've gotta watch out for - those things are ruthless!

16-03-2018 10:55AM

Lap dogs are the worst. Strike like a snake at any hand that comes near them.

Yea the effect he has usually is that he not just looks capable of killing you - but it is more a "presence" he has. Most dogs and other animals seem to just go still and silent the moment he enters their presence. Like they simply sense instantly this animal is "other". Has that effect on people too - especially when they see his eyes. Even the volume of birds in the forest seems to go down as he approaches.

Hah this is about as far off topic as we could push the thread. Sorry people. But yea the thing about wild animals is they are naturally selected to conserve energy. So it means he really has to be provoked to strike. It's like hawks and such birds. When people see them in captivity they imagine they should be soaring and flying free the whole time. Reality is when you release them they fly to the nearest tree and sit there and do nothing for hours. They absolutely do all they can not to fly till they have to (wonderful German guy who keeps birds in a sanctuary he runs near Sligo taught me this when I took my canine to meet him once - says the birds sit doing nothing in captivity all day then he releases them and they pretty much do the same during their freedom time each day).

But back to the topic - I really do not know what I can or can not do with an intruder. Was I in any way legally obliged to let the guy leave?

sbsquarepants · 16-03-2018 11:05AM

Last derail! - that is fascinating stuff - I'd love to see a picture of him if you wouldn't mind?

On your question - I'm not a legal expert or anything but my understanding of it is, if it was any longer than a year or so ago, I think you probably were technically guilty of false imprisonment, if he wanted to leave you had to let him (legally, not actually!) What's more if your dog had bitten him, he could have sued you and would quite possibly have won.
Now, you have no obligation to retreat.

Gravelly · 16-03-2018 11:08AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Last derail! - that is fascinating stuff - I'd love to see a picture of him if you wouldn't mind?

On your question - I'm not a legal expert or anything but my understanding of it is, if it was any longer than a year or so ago, I think you probably were technically guilty of false imprisonment, if he wanted to leave you had to let him (legally, not actually!) What's more if your dog had bitten him, he could have sued you and would quite possibly have won.
Now, you have no obligation to retreat.

Could you not call it a citizens arrest or something? Is the oft-quoted citizens arrest a real thing, and if so does it have to follow some kind of procedure I wonder?

sbsquarepants · 16-03-2018 11:15AM

I always thought citizens arrests only happened on the telly! But no, it actually turns out they are a statute inscribed thing.

Under section 4(1) of The Criminal Law Act 1997, any person may arrest, without a warrant, a person suspected of being in the act of committing an arrestable offence, with section 4(2) covers a person you suspect guilty of having already carried it out.

(Arrestable means punishable by 5 years in prison upon conviction)

You live and learn!

Man cleared of murdering trespasser in home with garden shears

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