UK: Up to 1,000 children ‘drugged, beaten and raped’ in Telford grooming scandal

Summer In the City · 14-03-2018 03:08AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

When the Police are afraid of being called " racist " you know political correctness has gotten even madder altogether- no matter what race/class/background/religion someone has,, criminality is criminality & if people are involved in criminality they need to be punished for it .

I'm not disagreeing that the police should be held accountable for their gross mishandling of the situation. This has nothing to to with the press reporting of the situation which is what I am talking about now.

ceadaoin. · 14-03-2018 03:24AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

As far as I can see they are naming anyone arrested. No different to anyone else. The takeaway thing is their job, just like the RTE guy or a Priest etc. This is the standard practice.

How do you expect the reporter to know if they they are Shiite, Sunni, Ibadi or any of the other Muslim religions. Some people in these gangs were white and British.

They can't come out and say they are Muslim gangs like you want because even if it was relevant it is way too broad a term. A quarter of the population of the world are Muslim.

I think given that they have no problem saying that "white girls" were specifically targeted, they should state that they were gangs of primarily Asian men. It's not like noone else has ever said it, most other publications have, because it is relevant despite how you don't want it to be. Trying to say that the primary link between the men is takeaways is ridiculous, better to mention nothing at all than that tbh

Yes, we know that most Muslim or Asian men don't do this. I dont see how that means we can't mention their ethnicity. most people are smart enough to realise the difference between "all Asians" and "a small group of primarily Asian men" and if they aren't, well, a BBC article isn't going to make any difference to their opinion. By refusing to mention it they are only alienating more people and giving the far right more ammunition

Summer In the City · 14-03-2018 03:27AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I think given that they have no problem saying that "white girls" were specifically targeted, they should state that they were gangs of primarily Asian men. It's not like noone else has ever said it, most other publications have, because it is relevant despite how you don't want it to be. Trying to say that the primary link between the men is takeaways is ridiculous, better to mention nothing at all than that tbh

How would you word it if you were writing the article?

ceadaoin. · 14-03-2018 03:37AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

How would you word it if you were writing the article?

Well in an article about the Jay report the BBC said the following

Professor Alexis Jay's report detailed how girls as young as 11 were raped, trafficked, abducted, beaten, and intimidated, predominantly by men of Pakistani-heritage

Something similar to that I suppose. Do you think that is racist or inflammatory? Or just factual? They won't though until they absolutely have to. So in several years time when an enquiry has been conducted maybe

Summer In the City · 14-03-2018 03:41AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Well in an article about the Jay report the BBC said the following

Something similar to that I suppose. Do you think that is racist or inflammatory? Or just factual? They won't though until they absolutely have to. So in several years time when an enquiry has been conducted maybe

No, I don't. That is in line with everything I have been saying. They don't mention religion or race.

ceadaoin. · 14-03-2018 03:45AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

No, I don't. That is in line with everything I have been saying. They don't mention religion or race.

I've never said that they should be labelled "Muslim gangs" btw so we are in agreement then. Something a bit more specific than takeaway workers is very relevant in this case

Summer In the City · 14-03-2018 03:52AM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I've never said that they should be labelled "Muslim gangs" btw so we are in agreement then. Something a bit more specific than takeaway workers is very relevant in this case

They always mention peoples jobs or lack thereof in crime reporting. It's a weird thing to get hung up on.

ceadaoin. · 14-03-2018 03:59AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

They always mention peoples jobs or lack thereof in crime reporting. It's a weird thing to get hung up on.

I wouldn't say I'm "hung up" on it. It's the complete omission of the most relevant factor of this grooming gang (after there have already been several of the exact same type of gangs uncovered around the country) which I find odd

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 09:03AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

No, I don't. That is in line with everything I have been saying. They don't mention religion or race.

Even if every one of these abusers could be identified as the same race, religion and nationality what would it change? Would you be more or less disgusted by their acts? Would it help in preventing or stopping child abuse? How exactly would it change anything at all?

Pepefrogok · 14-03-2018 09:22AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Even if every one of these abusers could be identified as the same race, religion and nationality what would it change? Would you be more or less disgusted by their acts? Would it help in preventing or stopping child abuse? How exactly would it change anything at all?

Identifying the problem is the first step towards finding the solution, If 7% of the community are responsible for 86% of grooming gangs racially and sexually abusing children and you can notice a trend that runs through all the attackers then ignoring it won't help!

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 09:33AM

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Identifying the problem is the first step towards finding the solution, If 7% of the community are responsible for 86% of grooming gangs racially and sexually abusing children and you can notice a trend that runs through all the attackers then ignoring it won't help!

So which of the posters in this thread making a big deal of their background have suggested a solution to this problem? Have you? I'm not saying identifying issues and subcultures within communities is a bad thing. It's just not all that useful. In Ireland we know that travelers are about 10 times more likely to be involved in crime. How has that knowledge changed anything?

And from a criminal point of view, race is completely irrelevant, with the exception of trying to identify/locate a particular unknown person. Crimes aren't investigated differently. They aren't prosecuted differently. And if you target a particular type of person as being the bogeyman you blind yourself to the rest of them.

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 11:14AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So which of the posters in this thread making a big deal of their background have suggested a solution to this problem? Have you? I'm not saying identifying issues and subcultures within communities is a bad thing. It's just not all that useful. In Ireland we know that travelers are about 10 times more likely to be involved in crime. How has that knowledge changed anything?

And from a criminal point of view, race is completely irrelevant, with the exception of trying to identify/locate a particular unknown person. Crimes aren't investigated differently. They aren't prosecuted differently. And if you target a particular type of person as being the bogeyman you blind yourself to the rest of them.

People are more wary around them. People will keep more of an eye out if they hear they are in the area. People will take in the kids bikes/toys from the front garden. It might not be PC to say, but it happens. People take more precautions.

Pepefrogok · 14-03-2018 11:26AM

The authorities could look for other parallels that link with the already observed links, do they attend the same mosque? Is there radicalisation happening there? Are they from the same schools? Are they being indoctrinated in misogyny and anti-western opinion? One thing is for certain, ignoring the evidence to protect the sensitivities of a few middle class liberals isn't going to result in anything other than more abused kids and more fractured communities.

RDM_83 again · 14-03-2018 11:29AM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

So which of the posters in this thread making a big deal of their background have suggested a solution to this problem? Have you? I'm not saying identifying issues and subcultures within communities is a bad thing. It's just not all that useful. In Ireland we know that travelers are about 10 times more likely to be involved in crime. How has that knowledge changed anything?

And from a criminal point of view, race is completely irrelevant, with the exception of trying to identify/locate a particular unknown person. Crimes aren't investigated differently. They aren't prosecuted differently. And if you target a particular type of person as being the bogeyman you blind yourself to the rest of them.

Race might be irrelevant ignoring culture and heritage isn't though.

Encourage informers among their communities to come forward, throw legal resources at the issue to bring charges of conspiracy and so on to those tangentially involved in the crimes, protect those who speak up from retaliation from members of the community.

For example if takeaway owners knew that if they turned a blind eye to their staffs acts they were going to have the home office checking on them once a week to investigate status of their workers with the risk of asset seizure that would be a strong motivation.

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 11:36AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

People are more wary around them. People will keep more of an eye out if they hear they are in the area. People will take in the kids bikes/toys from the gront garden. It might not be PC to say, but it happens. People take more precautions.

What you are advocating is what the police did in the USA with racial profiling. It didn't work. All that happened was innocent people had to suffer for the crimes of others. And while some may see that as an acceptable price, that's likely because they aren't in the group that would be targeted.

Pepefrogok wrote: »

The authorities could look for other parallels that link with the already observed links, do they attend the same mosque? Is there radicalisation happening there? Are they from the same schools? Are they being indoctrinated in misogyny and anti-western opinion? One thing is for certain, ignoring the evidence to protect the sensitivities of a few middle class liberals isn't going to result in anything other than more abused kids and more fractured communities.

But when the BBC suggested a link between the takeaways where the people were being raped a poster here dismissed it as irrelevant. You say ignoring the evidence, but race and religion aren't evidence.

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Race might be irrelevant ignoring culture and heritage isn't though.

Encourage informers among their communities to come forward, throw legal resources at the issue to bring charges of conspiracy and so on to those tangentially involved in the crimes, protect those who speak up from retaliation from members of the community.

For example if takeaway owners knew that if they turned a blind eye to their staffs acts they were going to have the home office checking on them once a week to investigate status of their workers with the risk of asset seizure that would be a strong motivation.

How is any of that related to their race or religion though?

jmayo · 14-03-2018 11:47AM

Summer In the City wrote: »

They are reporting it though. In the same way they report all their stories where they don't mention the race or religion of the subject unless it is relevant.

But it is very fooking relevant.
It is the major link and commonality between the vast vast majority of the perps.

Summer In the City wrote: »

As far as I can see they are naming anyone arrested. No different to anyone else. The takeaway thing is their job, just like the RTE guy or a Priest etc. This is the standard practice.

How do you expect the reporter to know if they they are Shiite, Sunni, Ibadi or any of the other Muslim religions. Some people in these gangs were white and British.

Very few were white and you fooking know it.
And most are British, it is just they are primarily of a muslim background and originally from such places as Pakistan.

In Newcastle case 1 white women was convicted alongside 16 Asian guys who had links to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indian, Iran, Iraq and Turkey.

Now for 2 points what religions have those countries in common ?

In Rochdale 9 men who ran the grooming gang were convicted in 2012.
8 were of Pakistani origin and 1 of Aghani origin.

In 2010 in Rotherham case 5 men were convicted and they were of Pakistani origin.

In 2010 9 men were jailed for grooming gang in Derby.
1 of the gang was white the rest were all "Asian".

So please stop trying to engage in deflection.

Summer In the City wrote: »

They can't come out and say they are Muslim gangs like you want because even if it was relevant it is way too broad a term. A quarter of the population of the world are Muslim.

84% or those convicted since 2005 of being engaged in child grooming paedophile gangs in Britain have been muslim.

And before you or the usual excusitory muppets come on, we all know the vast majority of paedophiles in Britain are white.
Afterall white people make up the vast majority of the population.

But the very worrying trend in these instances is that
1. the vast majority of organised grooming gangs are now muslim background
2. nearly 100% of their victims are white vulnerable girls.

Now if that situation was reversed imagine the hoop la we would be seeing about racially motivated attacks and racially motivated sexual assaults. :rolleyes:

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yes, we know that most Muslim or Asian men don't do this. I dont see how that means we can't mention their ethnicity. most people are smart enough to realise the difference between "all Asians" and "a small group of primarily Asian men" and if they aren't, well, a BBC article isn't going to make any difference to their opinion. By refusing to mention it they are only alienating more people and giving the far right more ammunition

That is one thing that sticks in my craw.
Slapping the Asian tag on them is insulting to Sikhs, Buddhits, Hindus, Shintoists, Christians, etc of Asian background and insulting to races such as Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Malayasian, Indonesian, Nepalese, etc.

14-03-2018 11:49AM

Assetbacked wrote: »

It seems to be relevant given this is yet another high profile incident of Asian sex gangs in the UK. Almost pandemic at this stage. However, at the very least, why are the BBC not investigating the claims that the police did not act on tip offs for fear of being called racist? That is troubling to think about; police sitting on information about paedophiles for fear of being called racist.

It "Seems" to be relevant? that is an opinion. The BBC reports on news, not opinions.

Assetbacked wrote: »

I disagree. See this article where the colour black as used in art is being argued as racist http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180312-the-racist-message-hidden-in-a-masterpiece this article is being portrayed as a legitimate argument despite it being a piece of poo, having read it twice now. The BBC will not touch certain groups.

You didn't read this bit, about a specific painting?:

BBC wrote:

But it is a painting from a subsequent generation of artists, Russian Suprematist Kazimir Malevich’s Black Square (1915) – often credited with being among the first abstract works ever painted – that reveals just how easily the colour can curdle from soulful luminosity into something rather shadier. In 2015, fresh analysis of the celebrated work (which Malevich said signified where “the true movement of being begins”) traced the outlines of a barely visible bigoted quip scrawled by the artist beneath the varnish.

The lurking words “battle of the negroes”, too gutless to show their face in full view, are thought to be an allusion to a racist phrase – “negroes battling at night” – used by a French humourist for an 1897 cartoon of a black square. With that disappointing discovery, which succeeded in recontextualising the work from pioneering masterpiece to appalling misadventure, the inner light of a painting that had, for decades, been the source of meaningful meditation, suddenly went out.

Pepefrogok · 14-03-2018 11:55AM

I believe the poster was more bemused that the BBC offered the takeaway link as the only link, to ignore the fact that they were predominantly Muslim would also downplay the racial element of this crime, it wouldn't help to understand why they believe white non Muslim girls to be acceptable targets, the fact is they are all Muslim, Muslims have a problem with rape and misogyny in the UK and the head in the sand approach that you seem to be advocating has not and will not work!

86% of all grooming gangs in the UK are Muslim.
12% of all prisoners incarcerated for rape in the UK are Muslim while only making up 4% of the population.

There is an undeniable problem within the Muslim community, people have denied it for so long now when presented with irrefutable evidence have no option but to admit they were wrong or double down on accusing the people highlighting these problems as racist! It dosent work anymore, more and more people are now awake to this tactic.

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 11:57AM

jmayo wrote: »

But it is very fooking relevant.
It is the major link and commonality between the vast vast majority of the perps.

Very few were white and you fooking know it.
And most are British, it is just they are primarily of a muslim background and originally from such places as Pakistan.

In Newcastle case 1 white women was convicted alongside 16 Asian guys who had links to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indian, Iran, Iraq and Turkey.

Now for 2 points what religions have those countries in common ?

In Rochdale 9 men who ran the grooming gang were convicted in 2012.
8 were of Pakistani origin and 1 of Aghani origin.

In 2010 in Rotherham case 5 men were convicted and they were of Pakistani origin.

In 2010 9 men were jailed for grooming gang in Derby.
1 of the gang was white the rest were all "Asian".

So please stop trying to engage in deflection.

84% or those convicted since 2005 of being engaged in child grooming paedophile gangs in Britain have been muslim.

And before you or the usual excusitory muppets come on, we all know the vast majority of paedophiles in Britain are white.
Afterall white people make up the vast majority of the population.

But the very worrying trend in these instances is that
1. the vast majority of organised grooming gangs are now muslim background
2. nearly 100% of their victims are white vulnerable girls.

Now if that situation was reversed imagine the hoop la we would be seeing about racially motivated attacks and racially motivated sexual assaults. :rolleyes:

That is one thing that sticks in my craw.
Slapping the Asian tag on them is insulting to Sikhs, Buddhits, Shintoists, Christians, etc of Asian background and insulting to races such as Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Malayasian, Indonesian, Nepalese, etc.

You still haven't explained why it's relevant though or how the knowledge of their backgrounds helps anything. The vast majority of sex offenders are men but that knowledge helps stop the problem in no way whatsoever, unless you are a fan of the consent classes for fellas in colleges.

jmayo · 14-03-2018 12:15PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You still haven't explained why it's relevant though or how the knowledge of their backgrounds helps anything. The vast majority of sex offenders are men but that knowledge helps stop the problem in no way whatsoever, unless you are a fan of the consent classes for fellas in colleges.

It is very fooking relevant and the first step in tackling an issue or problem is understanding it and the background.

Jaysus fook is there no level to which people will go to try distance this from the muslim communities that have spawned it.

The very fact that state authorities, police forces, media and local political representatives refused to deal with it because it primarily involved men from the muslim community is the reason it went on for so long and affected thousands of girls.
And even now some are still are refusing to deal with it.

I just despair that we now have a tranche of people who view one particular religious background as untouchable.

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 12:18PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

What you are advocating is what the police did in the USA with racial profiling. It didn't work. All that happened was innocent people had to suffer for the crimes of others. And while some may see that as an acceptable price, that's likely because they aren't in the group that would be targeted.

Sorry, but I haven't advocated anything. I replied to the question

"In Ireland we know that travelers are about 10 times more likely to be involved in crime. How has that knowledge changed anything?"

with an answer.

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 12:23PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You still haven't explained why it's relevant though or how the knowledge of their backgrounds helps anything. The vast majority of sex offenders are men but that knowledge helps stop the problem in no way whatsoever, unless you are a fan of the consent classes for fellas in colleges.

If "asian" females were being attacked by white skinheads with 88 tattoos on them and they all attended far right meetings in various parts of the country, not necessarily the same ones. Do you think that wouldn't/shouldn't be reported?

Should it just be reported as caucasian men found assaulting asian girls???

baylah17 · 14-03-2018 12:28PM

I have to say that, even as one who tries my best to be tolerant and respectful of all cultures, this is disgusting and the Police and other authorities also need to be brought to justice for facilitating this happening.

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 12:40PM

jmayo wrote: »

It is very fooking relevant and the first step in tackling an issue or problem is understanding it and the background.

Jaysus fook is there no level to which people will go to try distance this from the muslim communities that have spawned it.

The very fact that state authorities, police forces, media and local political representatives refused to deal with it because it primarily involved men from the muslim community is the reason it went on for so long and affected thousands of girls.
And even now some are still are refusing to deal with it.

I just despair that we now have a tranche of people who view one particular religious background as untouchable.

Again I ask, deal with it how? How does knowing they are msulims help you deal with it?

weldoninhio wrote: »

Sorry, but I haven't advocated anything. I replied to the question

"In Ireland we know that travelers are about 10 times more likely to be involved in crime. How has that knowledge changed anything?"

with an answer.

And your answer was that people profile travelers. You're right though, you didn't advocate it. Do you think profiling is the way to handle it?

weldoninhio wrote: »

If "asian" females were being attacked by white skinheads with 88 tattoos on them and they all attended far right meetings in various parts of the country, not necessarily the same ones. Do you think that wouldn't/shouldn't be reported?

Should it just be reported as caucasian men found assaulting asian girls???

A tattoo is something you choose to get, a haircut is something you choose to get and a meeting is something you choose to go to. You can't choose your background.

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 12:42PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Again I ask, deal with it how? How does knowing they are msulims help you deal with it?

And your answer was that people profile travelers. You're right though, you didn't advocate it. Do you think profiling is the way to handle it?

A tattoo is something you choose to get, a haircut is something you choose to get and a meeting is something you choose to go to. You can't choose your background.

A religion is something you choose to follow.

So you can't choose not to be Muslim? You are talking shyte.

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 12:47PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

A religion is something you choose to follow.

So you can't choose not to be Muslim? You are talking shyte.

Except that's not something I said is it?

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 01:01PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Except that's not something I said is it?

You've been vehemently arguing that them being reported as Muslim rape gangs is unnecessary. I used an example and now you are changing your tune.

Muslim isn't their background, its their religion. You can choose your religion. Much like the skinheads in my example chose to attend far-right meetings. As you pointed out. I would have thought Captain Obvious would have spotted that.

14-03-2018 01:05PM

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I believe the poster was more bemused that the BBC offered the takeaway link as the only link, to ignore the fact that they were predominantly Muslim would also downplay the racial element of this crime, it wouldn't help to understand why they believe white non Muslim girls to be acceptable targets, the fact is they are all Muslim, Muslims have a problem with rape and misogyny in the UK and the head in the sand approach that you seem to be advocating has not and will not work!

86% of all grooming gangs in the UK are Muslim.
12% of all prisoners incarcerated for rape in the UK are Muslim while only making up 4% of the population.

There is an undeniable problem within the Muslim community, people have denied it for so long now when presented with irrefutable evidence have no option but to admit they were wrong or double down on accusing the people highlighting these problems as racist! It dosent work anymore, more and more people are now awake to this tactic.

Are they Muslim then?

Could you provide some evidence to support this claim?

Captain Obvious · 14-03-2018 01:30PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

You've been vehemently arguing that them being reported as Muslim rape gangs is unnecessary. I used an example and now you are changing your tune.

Muslim isn't their background, its their religion. You can choose your religion. Much like the skinheads in my example chose to attend far-right meetings. As you pointed out. I would have thought Captain Obvious would have spotted that.

Muslim is a background and religion. And while you can indeed choose your religion, it's much harder to choose not to be in a religion you've been born into. Such is the nature of indoctrination. The reason I think it's not relevant in this case is because it's not the normal practice of muslims to rape children. It's not an indicator of someone who might do harm to children. In your example though, it is the normal practice of so called alt-right people to target minorities. That's why I'd consider the situations different.

weldoninhio · 14-03-2018 01:34PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Muslim is a background and religion. And while you can indeed choose your religion, it's much harder to choose not to be in a religion you've been born into. Such is the nature of indoctrination. The reason I think it's not relevant in this case is because it's not the normal practice of muslims to rape children. It's not an indicator of someone who might do harm to children. In your example though, it is the normal practice of so called alt-right people to target minorities. That's why I'd consider the situations different.

That is your perception. Vast swathes of Italians recently voted for a far right party. Do you believe that the majority of Italians who voted for them now target minorities??

UK: Up to 1,000 children ‘drugged, beaten and raped’ in Telford grooming scandal

Comments