RAW Superthread

J. Marston · 13-03-2018 03:06PM

The two women's storylines on Raw right now are...

"I'm not your bestie anymore."

and

"You're fat and unpopular."

Smackdown is shíte but Asuka's much better off there.

martyos121 · 13-03-2018 03:16PM

J. Marston wrote: »

The two women's storylines on Raw right now are...

"I'm not your bestie anymore."

and

"You're fat and unpopular."

Smackdown is shíte but Asuka's much better off there.

Maybe I’ll get some stick for this but I think the second one, Bliss and Nia, is actually a feud that interests me that’s focusing on a difficult subject and could be excellent if it’s booked tastefully. It’ll probably end with Nia overcoming her bully (ironic given the size difference) but I honestly don’t hate it as a storyline. Of course we’ll have to see how it pans out, but it’s more promising than most of the empty women’s feuds we’ve had since the “revolution”. I genuinely cannot remember more than two from each brand.

Loughc · 13-03-2018 03:18PM

SlickRic wrote: »

the only option left for Vince, if he's actually serious about trying to get him over as a babyface star, is to turn him heel and see what happens.

these last 2 weeks have largely been written perfectly.

Reigns has been given all the big lines.
He's been given the right things to say.
They've found the only way they could potentially get Lesnar booed - which is by having him not show up.
They've had Reigns up against the establishment.
They've put Vince in front of the camera.
They've had Reigns suspended.

But Vince still got cheered.

it's not going to work. they fúcked it up years ago, and it has never recovered.

the moment he was quite brutally and overwhelmingly chosen over Daniel Bryan was the big turning point.
Bryan had just come back from an injury that robbed him of the championship run everyone wanted to see.
he came back as the underdog hero.
he was eliminated by Bray fúcking Wyatt before Reigns even entered the match.
the crowd rejected the rest of the match, which Reigns ended up winning, where they even turned on The Rock.
The fúcking Rock, lads.

and that was it. there was no coming back. perception is reality, and from that point forward, Reigns was the embodiment of Vince saying 'fúck you' to the fans.

and they knew it almost immediately - booking the endorsement match between Bryan and Reigns. It didn't work.

Is it fair on Reigns? Probably not. he's an excellent worker, has great charisma, looks great, and was no doubt actually over before that Rumble. he'd never really been majorly booed on any show before that point as far as I remember.

but it killed him. and he was forever cast as Vince's lovechild. And you can't fight it.
No matter how many Shield reunions you have.
No matter how many times you have him overcome odds.
No matter how many times you get him to say 'bh'.
No matter how many times you try to paint him as the working class hero.
It's not going to work.

The best thing they could do at Wrestlemania is have Vince help him beat Brock, and reveal that the two were in on this all along, and that Roman was always the chosen one.

but they won't.
because they don't have to.
because Vince has no competition and he can do what the fúck he likes, feeding his own private fantasies, without repercussions, and ignoring the wishes of the fans, knowing he owns the game.

why the fúck do I care?

Well Said. Fantastic post. The biggest problem is there’s nothing stopping Vince doing what he wants. They’re more profitable than ever. People will still tune in still go to the shows still buy the merch.

Booing doesn’t work. If people feel that strongly why not walk out of the Main Event. How f ucking awesome would it be to see streams of people leaving the stadium while the Main Event of Mania was taking place. What would the commentators say? It would never happen tho.

The problem isn’t reigns. He’s a good worker the problem is the relentless booking to make him the star we don’t want.

Officer999 · 13-03-2018 03:38PM

It's funny how they have given no backstory or build to Matt Hardy becoming 'Woken'

For the casual WWE fan with no interest in TNA, it really must have been odd last night seeing characters such as 'King Maxel' and 'Senior Benjamin'

I'm guessing Jeremy Borash will be involved in the production of the Ultimate Deletion next week which should make it good.

PTH2009 · 13-03-2018 04:27PM

i wonder will the ultimate deletion match spell the end of Bray Wyatt as we knw him and he will return as a differnt character yet again ???

This bray wyatt vs Woken matt was something we always wanted and it has turned out a bit meh and really confusing, what will we they do with Woken matt after this fued ends ???. The way to go is Brother nero but we all knw how Jeff ****ed up yet again

Lord TSC · 13-03-2018 04:30PM

SlickRic wrote: »

the only option left for Vince, if he's actually serious about trying to get him over as a babyface star, is to turn him heel and see what happens.

these last 2 weeks have largely been written perfectly.

Reigns has been given all the big lines.
He's been given the right things to say.
They've found the only way they could potentially get Lesnar booed - which is by having him not show up.

And this is where this whole thing threatens to fall apart then. Cause the second Lesnar shows back up, the crowd will probably get right back behind him.

They have an issue bubbling here; by not showing up, Brock is showing he's not beholden to WWE. They might be saying he's Vince's golden child, but He's also presented as the rebellious outsider. And the smarky crowd, the one who'll be at Mania, will happily cheer the guy sticking it to WWE (as they always have with the rebellious outsider character).

SlickRic · 13-03-2018 04:49PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

And this is where this whole thing threatens to fall apart then. Cause the second Lesnar shows back up, the crowd will probably get right back behind him.

They have an issue bubbling here; by not showing up, Brock is showing he's not beholden to WWE. They might be saying he's Vince's golden child, but He's also presented as the rebellious outsider. And the smarky crowd, the one who'll be at Mania, will happily cheer the guy sticking it to WWE (as they always have with the rebellious outsider character).

and Vince will wonder why the fúck Reigns is getting booed again.

this is not like last year with the Undertaker. Vince knew Roman was getting booed, and they didn't really try to stop it. this is different. this is an attempt at a coronation. this is a concerted effort to get this guy over the main guy, and the face of the company, and cement him in that spot.

and it's going to fail.

you know what the other thing is? as good as Roman was and is, Cena still upstaged him with his promo on Taker.

i guarantee you more people will now watch Mania for the 2 broken down veterans going at it in a match that's, in reality, largely meaningless and 5 years too late, ahead of the match between the heir apparent to the WWE throne and the 'legit', unbeatable, superstar fighter.

Lord TSC · 13-03-2018 04:55PM

I know I come accross as a Brawn fanboy, but I think he'd have been far, far better suited to this story too.

Brock's no showing? Have Brawn go out and call him a little bitch who's running scared. Crowd would buy into that as well. Have him invade Vince's backstage area, threatening people. Have Brawn suspended, and have Brock show up then when Brawn "isn't there", only for Brawn to ignore the suspension and start causing chaos.

The Nal · 13-03-2018 05:00PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

i wonder will the ultimate deletion match spell the end of Bray Wyatt as we knw him and he will return as a differnt character yet again ???

As much as Vince will always put the top face out there as close to a Hogan, Luger, Cena type, he always has a Bray Wyatt. From Skinner, to Waylon Mercy to Phineas Godwin. Quarter of a century of the same character and it never works.

Lord TSC wrote: »

I know I come accross as a Brawn fanboy, but I think he'd have been far, far better suited to this story too.

1. The match Brock and Braun had was total plopsies.
2. Braun botched a knee in a match so maybe Brock doesn't want to work with him.
3. A big angry shouty guy (a character since the 1950s in pro wrestling) is never going to be the guy.

HandsomeBob · 13-03-2018 05:06PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

i wonder will the ultimate deletion match spell the end of Bray Wyatt as we knw him and he will return as a differnt character yet again ???

This bray wyatt vs Woken matt was something we always wanted and it has turned out a bit meh and really confusing, what will we they do with Woken matt after this fued ends ???. The way to go is Brother nero but we all knw how Jeff ****ed up yet again

The problem is that it's been a combination of half assed and utterly pedestrian. 80% of Woken Matt has been against a white background more or less giving the same promo. Hasn't had half the freedom he had at TNA.

Ultimate Deletion should be a goldust/piper mania moment instead they're blowing their load next week after only announcing it last week. CLOWNS.

beakerjoe · 13-03-2018 05:08PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Roman is suspended

So how are we to believe Shane McMahon now when hes talking about how SD is his only concern when he was clearly shown bsckergwr at Raw

its really odd showing gorilla on live TV

Ive no idea what you believe or not, but its 2018..... 2018

The White Feather · 13-03-2018 05:10PM

I agree with you Lord TSC

Braun would have been a better fit. Then put Roman with Rollins against the Bar and have Finn 1 on 1 with the Miz

It's not going to work with Roman. I laughed out loud when he said Brock was Vinces boy. Like C'mon, really?!!!

Otherwise that was the first Raw in a long long time that I have watched everything. Usually I have it on fast forward.

Seemed like they had a number of stories all going.All had me interested.

Cena did a brilliant promo.They key to a good promo is having something to say not just putting people out for the sake of it. This is what happened to Bray. Constant segments where he is rambling really hurt his character.

As Officer999 said, I have no idea of Hardys people other than stuff I have read. They should have been introducing them one by one every week but here we are so I, like most people will just go with it!

Lord TSC · 13-03-2018 05:21PM

The Nal wrote: »

1. The match Brock and Braun had was total plopsies.
2. Braun botched a knee in a match so maybe Brock doesn't want to work with him.
3. A big angry shouty guy (a character since the 1950s in pro wrestling) is never going to be the guy.

I'm always aware that match quality is always lower down the list of priorities for me, especially on a show that will have Nakamura/Styles on it to give me that side of things. I'd rather 6 weeks of a great story and a ****ty match than 6 weeks of an un-credible story and a good match, and one where the crowd will reject the story anyway...

SureYWouldntYa · 13-03-2018 07:22PM

Reigns is a fine worker, he’s not as limited as Cena was in his first mega push or Hogan but then again who was ever more limited as a top guy

Reigns being a good worker is usually used as an arguement for him being the guy going forward, but in reality while he’s more than serviceable when it comes to in ring ability he’s still not in the top 10 in WWE and he’s even lower when it comes to mic ability

I’ve said it many times before but keeping Reigns face instead of heel is robbing us of a true heel but more importantly a foil for someone like Balor or Rollins etc for us to truly get behind

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-03-2018 08:37PM

There's a lot of nonsense frequently spouted about Reigns by people who place far too much emphasis on the obnoxious opinions of smarks who go to events purposely to boo faces and act the maggot. You can't run a business by catering to these vocal minorities. If you did, then you would have had HHH beat Cena at Mania 22 and HBK win the following year. Both of which the smarks in attendance would have popped for but which would have done terribly for business.

Why do they push Reigns in the top spot? No, it's not because Vince McMahon hates you or wants to ruin your life or chase away fans. It's because the numbers tell him to.

Have a glance at Meltzer's twitter feed and the answers are there for you:

Q to Meltzer: @davemeltzerWON are @WWE & @VinceMcMahon that naive thinking @WWERomanReigns will become over with fans at WM 34?

Meltzer: He sells merch and he gets loud reactions, and business is fine, Cena taught them worrying about faces being booed on TV isn't relevant.

Q to Meltzer: Does he sell merch? I go to tons of wrestling events of all kinds and I've seen one Roman shirt worn ever.

Meltzer: His merch numbers are very strong.

Q. They had him win rumbles, main event WM's, punch McMahon, retire Taker, semi retire Cena etc- its insane how forceful his push has been.

Meltzer: That is how you push a top guy.

Q to Meltzer: @davemeltzerWON just wondering does Vince worry that people are sick of a 4-5 year main event featuring Roman Reigns?

Meltzer: Business indicators really don't show that.

Q to Meltzer: It's an interesting debate -- whether booing the hell out of Roman because he's been shoehorned into Top Babyface spot is proof he's "over".

Meltzer: Business is fine and he gets the biggest reaction at most house shows and fans are always into his matches & merch sells.

Q to Meltzer: @davemeltzerWON Why does Vimce feel this need to make less money choosing "His guy" instead of broadening his media presence and revenue just putting the belt and the Main Event in a guy the Crowd likes more?

Meltzer: He thinks his pick is the right guy. Key is right now there is no standout right guy except Cena, who isn't around enough to be the top guy.

Q to Meltzer: Or it's the fact Vince literally gives every "big" moment to Reigns and no one else...i mean he's about to Main even his 4th Mania in row

Meltzer: Same as Hogan, Bruno, Cena, Austin. Vince always builds around a top guy. Always will.

Q to Meltzer: how come he doesn't listen to the crowd. in era's gone by Roman would be a heel etc more stubborn in old age

Meltzer: Cena taught him not to listen to the crowd, instead listen to the revenue. He's not wrong either.

Brandon Howard of Fightful.com:

The study I did of Google Shopping searches for 2016 suggested Reigns moves merchandise better than anyone in WWE except for Cena. The study suggested Reigns is the clear no. 2 merch seller

And that's two years ago. Just because a bunch of angry and bitter guys in Philly, New York etc boo him like crazy doesn't mean he is a flop. They boo him because they know he's the company's chosen one and because he didn't earn his stripes in their snobbish eyes by wrestling on the indy scene or in Japan. If these unhappy fans in attendance - or indeed the ones who watch from home - really were put off then they wouldn't watch.

Anyway back to Raw I like where the Reigns/Brock storyline is going and also enjoyed the return of the Broken Universe characters. Cena's promo on Taker very good too.

Very enjoyable Mania build and the event should do great numbers for the company once again.

Agent Coulson · 13-03-2018 09:54PM

So is Meltzer a fraud and totally out of touch as some seem to say or is he still gospel as others say.

Some use Meltzer to prove their point others use him to disprove those points.

So is he still a real deal ITK or was he really ever in that position.

Loughc · 13-03-2018 10:01PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

So is Meltzer a fraud and totally out of touch as some seem to say or is he still gospel as others say.

Some use Meltzer to prove their point others use him to disprove those points.

So is he still a real deal ITK or was he really ever in that position.

Personally I think he’s a fraud. I’ve called him out as one for years.

All of his news is either stating the obvious or guess work. The time when Raw was at Chicago shortly after Punk walked after the Rumble and he said something alone the lines Punk will be at Raw unless they decide not to run with the angle. It was embarrassing.

CastorTroy · 13-03-2018 10:11PM

Cena even proved how aware he is at least when he slipped I the "Let's go Roman" line and got the response he expected.

So that's 2 guys at least whose storyline for fighting at Mania is that they don't have a match for Mania. Cena and Braun.
I'm assuming Braun will team with Elias.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-03-2018 11:04PM

Loughc wrote: »

Personally I think he’s a fraud. I’ve called him out as one for years.

All of his news is either stating the obvious or guess work. The time when Raw was at Chicago shortly after Punk walked after the Rumble and he said something alone the lines Punk will be at Raw unless they decide not to run with the angle. It was embarrassing.

This inaccuracy from many years ago is often brought up as a reason to criticize him but any inside journalist is going to have times when they are given faulty information like the above. The likes of Jericho, Austin, Heyman, Cornette, J.R. etc. seem to trust and respect his views which is a good enough rep for me.

sky88 · 13-03-2018 11:05PM

CastorTroy wrote: »

Cena even proved how aware he is at least when he slipped I the "Let's go Roman" line and got the response he expected.

So that's 2 guys at least whose storyline for fighting at Mania is that they don't have a match for Mania. Cena and Braun.
I'm assuming Braun will team with Elias.

Thinking about it now they were pushing symphony.of destruction strongly so thats tottally going to be there name

sky88 · 13-03-2018 11:09PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

This inaccuracy from many years ago is often brought up as a reason to criticize him but any inside journalist is going to have times when they are given faulty information like the above. The likes of Jericho, Austin, Heyman, Cornette, J.R. etc. seem to trust and respect his views which is a good enough rep for me.

From all reports all those guys are sources of meltzer minus austin aa ive never heard of that. But i honestly think dave just hasnt got the sources he once had hence the innaccurate stories plain guessing at times.

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-03-2018 11:24PM

sky88 wrote: »

From all reports all those guys are sources of meltzer minus austin aa ive never heard of that. But i honestly think dave just hasnt got the sources he once had hence the innaccurate stories plain guessing at times.

I'm not aware of many inaccuracies of late. He's predicted the Mania card a while in advance. The thing is Vince changes his mind a lot so when Meltzer says plans can change people assume that's him covering his ass because he has made everything up, but Vince does change his plans frequently as all the guys who work there confirm. Example being when Rollins was to cash in for the title at Mania I believe he was told on the day.

DM_7 · 13-03-2018 11:25PM

sky88 wrote: »

From all reports all those guys are sources of meltzer minus austin aa ive never heard of that. But i honestly think dave just hasnt got the sources he once had hence the innaccurate stories plain guessing at times.

Of course he guesses a lot. He is a reviewer and previewer these days more than someone breaking news.

SureYWouldntYa · 13-03-2018 11:59PM

Business is going well because the WWE in 2018 is the draw. Reigns being there or not in his current role doesn’t move the needle either way, he’s Vince’s guy but a change in how he’s booked would make for a more enjoyable product for those of us who will probably always be here.

Mr Nice Guy you can’t call the ‘smarks’ who boo Reigns the minority, thats just ridiculous. The only time he’s had the majority of the crowd behind him was vs Sheamus. Other than that he’s booed out of every arena. Last nights Raw was in Detroit, not exactly bizaro world like Chicago for instance.

Im sick of him because of the crappy booking of the Roman Reigns WWE superstar character. I always thought you were messing when praising Roman or just taking the piss, but I honestly don’t know what your train of thought is when it comes to Reigns. You say the fans reject Reigns because they’re smarks and he’s the chosen one, yet you seem to be going against the grain online because he’s the hated one so id call your mindset smarkception.

CastorTroy · 14-03-2018 12:24AM

Saw someone suggest the suspension is to cover up a wellness violation, which reminded me wasn't it the last Mania match with Brock when he got suspended after? I doubt that's what it is this time though

Mr.Nice Guy · 14-03-2018 01:12AM

SureYWouldntYa wrote: »

Mr Nice Guy you can’t call the ‘smarks’ who boo Reigns the minority, thats just ridiculous. The only time he’s had the majority of the crowd behind him was vs Sheamus. Other than that he’s booed out of every arena. Last nights Raw was in Detroit, not exactly bizaro world like Chicago for instance.

Im sick of him because of the crappy booking of the Roman Reigns WWE superstar character. I always thought you were messing when praising Roman or just taking the piss, but I honestly don’t know what your train of thought is when it comes to Reigns. You say the fans reject Reigns because they’re smarks and he’s the chosen one, yet you seem to be going against the grain online because he’s the hated one so id call your mindset smarkception.

You've just exemplified what I've been saying. Just because you hear audible boos from smarks you assume they speak for the majority of the fanbase. They don't. Have a read of this:

https://twitter.com/nWoWolfpacTV/status/951943837324324864

Marketability studies, Google trends, Youtube views, merch sales, house show reactions, are all pluses where it concerns him.

My train of thought is to not be a sheep and to be led by those who take their cues from these smark fans acting the maggot. You heard them in full voice at the Rumble chanting at Reigns and Cena to go away. I'm sure many believe that would be a good thing but it would be terrible for WWE if that happened.

If people are so sure Reigns is bad for business then present figures that suggest as much. Simply pointing to a bunch of booing smarks isn't a good enough argument or Cena would have been turned a decade ago.

ERG89 · 14-03-2018 01:29AM

How is anyone meant to predict the creative direction of WWE they have people win Rumbles, MITB, World titles & they don't really know what to do with them next. They throw a lot of sh!t against the wall every week with the exhausting amount of content & the stuff that sticks they will say it was planned from the offset.
The Rusev Day chant catching on so much shows how poor the company is when they have to react to something unexpected. Shane & Bryan has taken up a LOT of time & is back at square one again with Bryan still questioning Shane's judgement. They were meant to have Rousey on Raw every week but probably told her not to bother as they struggle for ideas on what to do after they set up the match a month out from Mania as if Stephanie lays her out it just looks plain stupid. Braun Strowman is the number one contender because he's so wacky & more social media memes for him I guess.
I'm meant to care about Lesnar leaving even though he looks so bored & disinterested the last few years I nearly feel bad for him. Taker is asked to come out of "retirement" even though he should have stayed gone 4 years ago.
There is no rhyme or reason to a lot of it but people will pay for the shows even if it's repetitive

Lord TSC · 14-03-2018 09:45AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

If people are so sure Reigns is bad for business then present figures that suggest as much.

So here's the problem; if Reigns was bad for business, there won't be statistical facts proving that because it's all hypothetical; it's a discussion of potental based on what could be rather than what is.

The main arguement against Reigns and, more specifically, WWEs booking of him is that many believe the product would be a lot better if they put someone else into the Reigns spot, or stopped trying to shove that particular morseal down people's throats. And I think you know this, but when you are talking about how something could potentially be a lot better, there isn't exact figures to back it up.

The arguement isn't "they should push Rollins because he sells more shirts" or "they should push Finn because the ratings pop when they do", it's that we don't get the chance to find out how others would do in that sort of position they put Reigns in. Your stats show that's a Reigns, the guy they push as their top baby face on their top show, does more tshirt sales than the people they push less. To be blunt. . . . D'uh. The arguement is that if WWE took that rocket and put it onto others, spent time actually trying to push others like they push Reigns, then you'd be able to generate the figures you want, but they don't, so we can't give you what you want.

In fact the list of criteria you list (merchant sales, house show reactions and ticket sales, etc). . . Physically you can't measure the impact of those who aren't showing up. Your argument, the logic in it, is so flawed. If "da sharks" aren't buying the WWE merch, then of course Reigns looks like a ****ing champ. It's a discussion of the missed potential that is on the table though. My own personal opinion, and I hold this over from the days of Cenas Reigns of terror too, is that if you put Ellsworth into the top spot and had WWE strap a rocket to him, then his sales would be the top ones. The "marks", to continue the terms used, will ultimately cheer who they are told. This doesn't make Reigns special; it makes him the current chosen one.

SlickRic · 14-03-2018 10:37AM

Vince has created a self-fulfilling prophecy with Reigns.

Meltzer has said that Reigns isn't bad for business. That is correct.
He has also said that he is the least over main event babyface WWE have ever had.

As Lord TSC says, we don't know how good he is compared to anyone else in that position, because he's the one in that position, and is continuing to be battered into that position year after year.

Who is to say Rollins wouldn't do better with the same push?
Or Cesaro?
Or Joe?
Or Nakamura?
Or someone else?

SureYWouldntYa · 14-03-2018 10:45AM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

You've just exemplified what I've been saying. Just because you hear audible boos from smarks you assume they speak for the majority of the fanbase. They don't. Have a read of this:

https://twitter.com/nWoWolfpacTV/status/951943837324324864

Marketability studies, Google trends, Youtube views, merch sales, house show reactions, are all pluses where it concerns him.

My train of thought is to not be a sheep and to be led by those who take their cues from these smark fans acting the maggot. You heard them in full voice at the Rumble chanting at Reigns and Cena to go away. I'm sure many believe that would be a good thing but it would be terrible for WWE if that happened.

If people are so sure Reigns is bad for business then present figures that suggest as much. Simply pointing to a bunch of booing smarks isn't a good enough argument or Cena would have been turned a decade ago.

Why does that google trend show Jon Moxley instead of Dean Ambrose? Just curious its almost theres an agenda in place.......

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