The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Call me Al wrote: »

You say you know lots of women who have had an abortion and thought nothing of it.
How can you possibly know LOTS of women in this situation? Lots who have discussed this with you, an openly anti-repeal supporter? How many do you consider "lots"?
I am heading towards 50 years on this earth of ours, and know and have met lots of women over the years. I know a few women who have had abortions. None of them, when they chose to discuss their thought process and choice with me, made the decision lightly or dismissively.
Where are these LOTS OF WOMEN you have encountered?

I meet them in my line of work.
This is getting ridiculous now.
About one in 3 women having abortions in the UK have already had an abortion.
Across Asia 100 baby girls are born to every 120 boys .
I don’t judge any of these people. Every one has to live with themselves.
But pretending that people only have abortions in a crisis is nuts.

splinter65 wrote: »

I meet them in my line of work.
This is getting ridiculous now.
About one in 3 women having abortions in the UK have already had an abortion.
Across Asia 100 baby girls are born to every 120 boys .
I don’t judge any of these people. Every one has to live with themselves.
But pretending that people only have abortions in a crisis is nuts.

And you think that because some people have abortions for reasons that you think trivial, the 8th amendment should be retained?

Do you know how nuts that is?

splinter65 wrote: »

Pretending that women don’t decide to have an abortion when they find themselves unexpectedly pregnant at a time when they didn’t plan to be is ridiculous.
It happens all the time.
I know lots of women who have had abortions and thought no more about it.
There is not always weeks of agonizing and grief and contemplation.

I don’t pretend that.
Nor did I state that women always spend weeks agonizing, grieving or contemplating the decision.

I also don’t pretend that being pregnant is merely an inconvenience or that abortion is merely a lifestyle decision.

I’ve been pregnant and have a child. It’s been the most wonderful best thing I’ve ever done. Love it but that’s in a large part because I wanted a child and am in a great position to raise him.

My pregnancy was not merely inconvenient though. It was an easy pregnancy but I had common symptoms, in my case exhaustion. I could work but I certainly couldn’t safely drive to and from the west of Ireland in a day as my job required. Long hours weren’t possible, clear headed analysis was out the window. Staring at a computer screen blankly accounted for big chunks of my day. Staying awake to be able to cook dinner was an impossibility, luckily my husband did that. These are the minor end of pregnancy symptoms but their impact is much greater than an inconvenience. We all know women who’ve had much tougher pregnancies than mine.

The 20+k I didn’t earn when on maternity leave was planned and saved for, but for many women that would mean homelessness. Perhaps that’s the lifestyle choice you’re thinking of? The childcare expenses we now pay, the pay cut I took to move to a more family friendly job. . .

Choosing to have an abortion, no matter how quickly or decisively, is never for convenience and lifestyle reasons because pregnancy is not merely inconvenient and having a child does not merely tweak your lifestyle.

splinter65 wrote: »

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

Do you think the decisions you listed were snap judgements decided on a whim? Just because its not a crisis situation, does not mean its an easy decision to make. You may 100% know it is the right thing to do but still wish you weren't in the situation to have to make the decision.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

Are you saying an 11 week old baby in the mammies belly is the same as a bit of jizz on a sock?

Nope. I never said that. Try thinking harder.

splinter65 wrote: »

I live in the real world. People have abortions because they have been told that the baby they are having is disabled or will not survive outside the womb.
They have abortions because they thought their family was complete and didn’t intend to start again.
They have abortions because either their contraception failed or they didn’t use contraception.
They have abortions because they don’t want to be pregnant.
Some women have abortions because it has been made clear to them that they will have no support.
Some women have more than 1 abortion.
There’s a trend on amongst the pro repeal advocates to push the idea that every abortion is agonized over and only happens after much heart searching.
What absolute nonsense.
It’s just a bunch of cells. A non sentient clump with no brain and no rights.
There’s no need for any agonizing.

People have abortions for all those reasons and more. It didn't take much... ehh... heart searching... for me to make my decision for the future. I am really struggling to see your point here. Some people agonize over it before they become pregnant, some people do afterwards, some people don't at all. However, the fact remains that you cannot call it an easy decision, or one that's done on a whim when so many do agonize over it.

Also, do you truly believe those last lines? Or is this part of the weird point you're making?

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I know a fair few women who have had miscarriages and for them the thought that people say 11 week old babies are just an unimportant blob of cells sickens them.
I know a fair few gay people who would love to adopt and the thoughts that people would rather babies were aborted rather than gay adoption given more attention sickens them.

It’s a mad referendum all together really.

They aren't unimportant when they're wanted.
Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

It’s not a sneer. You can’t just call things you don’t like a sneer.

I’m glad I had autonomy over my body when I was growing in my mother. What if she wanted to go study literature in dit?

So only arts students have abortions? Or is it only arts students who aren't doing a course that's worthy of abortion? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

People have abortions for all those reasons and more. It didn't take much... ehh... heart searching... for me to make my decision for the future. I am really struggling to see your point here. Some people agonize over it before they become pregnant, some people do afterwards, some people don't at all. However, the fact remains that you cannot call it an easy decision, or one that's done on a whim when so many do agonize over it.

Also, do you truly believe those last lines? Or is this part of the weird point you're making?



They aren't unimportant when they're wanted.
Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

No I don’t believe those lines.
That’s part of the pro repeal spiel here.
The bloody hypocrisy .
One minute it’s a zygote a fetus a speck non sentient and a bunch of cells. It’s even been described as a parasite.
The next post were asked to believe that every woman who ever had an abortion only did so after “much heart searching” etc....over the zygote/bunch of cells/parasite ....oh please.

swampgas wrote: »

What about the twin brother your sister might have had? Do you miss your brother? Can you imagine living without him?

You might as say we should ban contraception because of all the other brothers and sisters you might have right now.

I feel abortion should an option in some cases.
However my concern is that it will be become a form of mainstream contraception. (I'm trying to be sensitive with my words here)

If I felt people were responsible in this country it would be a big "repeal" from me.
However people are not responsible in this country, not at all in fact.

Irish people are renowned for the "It's always someone else's fault" attitude or "just my luck" or "not my problem", not to mention how self entitled a lot of people are today. Such to the extent that they feel they should have X,Y or Z not because they've earned it, but because the feel they are entitled to/deserve it, because someone that has earned it has gotten it. (Obviously you dont earn the right to have an abortion, I' not using this as a metaphor. rather trying to gauge the way people think in this country)

You only have to look at all the crap that happen in the lead up to and during the crash to understand we Irish are not responsible.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

I’m glad I had autonomy over my body when I was growing in my mother. What if she wanted to go study literature in dit?

You didn't have autonomy. You weren't even aware you existed.

If she had aborted you would never know it, is the point. You (and everyone else) is the result of a staggeringly random set of circumstances. It's crazy (yet quite common) for people to panic about how "if abortion was available to my mother I might not be here", when there are a million and one other reasons why you might not be here, or why you might be a completely different person.

What about if your mother had an abortion and you were the child she had later in life, having met a different partner? If she had never aborted the first time then you wouldn't be here either. It's an insane game of what-if to play with yourself.

splinter65 wrote: »

No I don’t believe those lines.
That’s part of the pro repeal spiel here.
The bloody hypocrisy .
One minute it’s a zygote a fetus a speck non sentient and a bunch of cells. It’s even been described as a parasite.
The next post were asked to believe that every woman who ever had an abortion only did so after “much heart searching” etc....over the zygote/bunch of cells/parasite ....oh please.

Both of those answers are correct. A foetus is a potential for life. Not every woman aborts as she doesn't want children, not every woman faces that decision until they fall pregnant. However, in the time frame mentioned, it is still very much non sentient. I'm not sure what's so confusing about that.

Ajsoprano wrote: »

You say you are not a baby maker for the barren but tell me why would you rather your child not live than have him live with somebody else?

Because it would kill me, not that the pro-life would care.

grahambo wrote: »

I feel abortion should an option in some cases.
However my concern is that it will be become a form of mainstream contraception. (I'm trying to be sensitive with my words here)

If I felt people were responsible in this country it would be a big "repeal" from me.
However people are not responsible in this country, not at all in fact.

Irish people are renowned for the "It's always someone else's fault" attitude or "just my luck" or "not my problem", not to mention how self entitled a lot of people are today. Such to the extent that they feel they should have X,Y or Z not because they've earned it, but because the feel they are entitled to/deserve it, because someone that has earned it has gotten it. (Obviously you dont earn the right to have an abortion, I' not using this as a metaphor. rather trying to gauge the way people think in this country)

You only have to look at all the crap that happen in the lead up to and during the crash to understand we Irish are not responsible.

Look, Irish women have abortions right now - they just travel to the UK. In fact in a referendum years ago the Irish people put it in the constitution that they have the right to travel. The constitution reflects the weird contradictory attitude I find here: abortion is okay if you travel, but a terrible crime if you have one at home. It's the same woman, the same pregnancy, the same foetus/baby, just in a different place for a few days. How crazy is that?

Trying to link abortion to the financial crisis is just ... I don't know where to begin, to be honest.

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Fertile women are not baby makers for people who can't have children. That thought sickens me.

Handmaids Tale anyone?

swampgas wrote: »

Look, Irish women have abortions right now - they just travel to the UK. In fact in a referendum years ago the Irish people put it in the constitution that they have the right to travel. The constitution reflects the weird contradictory attitude I find here: abortion is okay if you travel, but a terrible crime if you have one at home. It's the same woman, the same pregnancy, the same foetus/baby, just in a different place for a few days. How crazy is that?

Trying to link abortion to the financial crisis is just ... I don't know where to begin, to be honest.

Your points are valid.
We cannot control what happens in another country.

As I mentioned in the previous post, I was trying to gauge how responsible Irish people are in general. Not compare pregnancy/abortion to the financial crisis.

People in this country take the piss all the time.
You may not believe it's a life, but a great many do (as was evident on the 11th of March).
And at a very high level, each side need to respect what the other side thinks.

I feel if I talk positively about abortion to pro-lifers they hate me and are disgusted by me.
I feel if I talk positively about pro-life to pro-choicers they feel I'm a misogynistic pig.

This whole debate has gotten personal (again a very Irish thing). And no one is listening.
Everyone just wants to be right regardless of what the consequences of being right are. (if that makes sense)

zedhead wrote: »

You think people are so irresponsible they should not be trusted with the decision to have abortion available to them...but all of these horribly irresponsible people are grand to raise children?

Valid point.
Tallaght 2 weeks ago verifies your point.

grahambo wrote: »

I feel if I talk positively about abortion to pro-lifers they hate me and are disgusted by me.
I feel if I talk positively about pro-life to pro-choicers they feel I'm a misogynistic pig.

Just on this, I am pro-choice but I do fully understand that this is a diverse issue. I don't think it's misogyny (well mostly). I just can't stand ridiculous arguments which some pro-life people put forward, especially ones that are misleading.

At the end of the day, abortion is going to happen anyway. People will travel, they'll order pills online, they'll use a coat hanger if they have to. I was unfortunately present in Limerick one night about 4 or 5 years ago when a girl nearly drunk herself into a coma to try and give herself an abortion. Abortion being illegal doesn't stop abortions. It just stops safe ones.