Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 10:59AM

awec wrote: »

The problem is the guys in the squad and those who bring them in.

But to say the problem is not the deadwood or that we can’t fix that first, that’s just completely wrong.

Crap players either buck up their ideas or leave. Either works for me.

So new arrivals can look forward to being bitched about behind their backs by their superiors. Wonderful.

It's delusional if you think (1) this was a positive and (2) should be a policy going forward. Forget about rugby and your animosity towards Ulster for a moment. Is this a good way for employers to air grievances with employees?

Former Former wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Cunningham not the manager, i.e. the guy in charge of operations for the pro side?

I'm not sure he's really culpable for what we've seen on the pitch.

To flip it around, when Leinster are riding high in Europe and the Pro12, no one is singing Guy Easterby's praises and no one mentions Mick Dawson. It's Cullen and Lancaster getting the plaudits.

My understanding is Cunningham is in charge of recruitment. Open to correction.

In any case it's unacceptable for him to make these comments. He should walk.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 10:59AM

awec wrote: »

This is just completely wrong.

Guys like Van see Merwe are exactly the deadwood that needs cleared. Deysel too if he doesn’t improve.

You seem to think people are saying that this isn't true. IBF is the only one who has come even close to that, and even he didn't say it.

There is nothing wrong with something like:

"We've a lot of work to do both within the senior squad and beyond. The performances to date have been very disappointing and we need to ensure that we have the playing, coaching and support staff to turn that around. That will mean working with existing players, bringing in new players and probably letting some guys go. We recognise that the playing squad itself isn't where it needs to be."

This basically says exactly the same thing as what was said. It does it without throwing individual players under the bus in public, potentially damaging their future prospects etc. You and Ulster rugby may not care about that, but if Ulster don't care about throwing their players under a bus then they have more deep rooted issues that need resolving beyond the rugby.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:01AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

So new arrivals can look forward to being bitched about behind their backs by their superiors. Wonderful.

My understanding is Cunningham is in charge of recruitment. Open to correction.

In any case it's unacceptable for him to make these comments. He should walk.

Only if they fail to perform. This isn’t band camp.

Buer · 13-03-2018 11:01AM

awec wrote: »

This place is hilarious sometimes. Ulster are a mess, the players need to take responsibility. We heard a lot of this from people who kept making excuses for Kiss.

Oh, but don’t dare actually say that to anyone, cause it might hurt their feelings.

Absolutely nobody is saying that. You don't say it publicly because it's bad management. Behind the cameras, rip into them, cancel their contract, tell them they're not worth having in the squad.

But you don't shame one of your employees in public particularly in a straightforward Q&A where you can deal with such a question with a straight bat no problem.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 11:02AM

awec wrote: »

Only if they fail to perform. This isn’t band camp.

According to who?

So if enough supporters can't stand a player, they should expect a verbal guillotining. Wonderful.

This is rank incompetence. Players confide with management like Cunningham. Imagine their delight to see this. That is why I'm calling it a betrayal of trust. You're being blinded by your frustration to see this.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 11:03AM

awec wrote: »

The problem is the guys in the squad and those who bring them in.

But to say the problem is not the deadwood or that we can’t fix that first, that’s just completely wrong.

Crap players either buck up their ideas or leave. Either works for me.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:03AM

molloyjh wrote: »

You seem to think people are saying that this isn't true. IBF is the only one who has come even close to that, and even he didn't say it.

There is nothing wrong with something like:

"We've a lot of work to do both within the senior squad and beyond. The performances to date have been very disappointing and we need to ensure that we have the playing, coaching and support staff to turn that around. That will mean working with existing players, bringing in new players and probably letting some guys go. We recognise that the playing squad itself isn't where it needs to be."

This basically says exactly the same thing as what was said. It does it without throwing individual players under the bus in public, potentially damaging their future prospects etc. You and Ulster rugby may not care about that, but if Ulster don't care about throwing their players under a bus then they have more deep rooted issues that need resolving beyond the rugby.

Why is it you have been saying all along when people talked about getting rid of Kiss that the players need to take responsibility, but now have done a u turn?

When you say players responsibility did you mean some fluffy group hug type thing where we just ignore the players who aren’t cutting the mustard and just talk about the team as a collective to avoid the hard discussions?

I am fairly certain dire performances on the field will have a far greater impact on future prospects than what Bryn Cunningham says in a season ticket holder meeting.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:04AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

According to who?

So if enough supporters can't stand a player, they should expect a verbal guillotining. Wonderful.

This is rank incompetence. Players confide with management like Cunningham. Imagine their delight to see this. That is why I'm calling it a betrayal of trust. You're being blinded by your frustration to see this.

Can’t stand a player?

Are you trying to suggest it’s just cause we don’t like them?

This is getting ridiculous now.

Again, any that don’t like it are free to leave. They won’t be missed and there won’t be a queue of clubs looking to sign them.

Former Former · 13-03-2018 11:05AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

My understanding is Cunningham is in charge of recruitment. Open to correction.

In any case it's unacceptable for him to make these comments. He should walk.

We have absolutely no idea what he said. I'm not being a dick but we're playing Chinese whispers here.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 11:05AM

awec wrote: »

This is getting ridiculous now.

I agree.

We need to stage an intervention I think

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 11:05AM

awec wrote: »

This place is hilarious sometimes. Ulster are a mess, the players need to take responsibility. We heard a lot of this from people who kept making excuses for Kiss.

Oh, but don’t dare actually say that to anyone, cause it might hurt their feelings.

Let’s just keep acting the ostrich to the season ticket holders, it has always worked so well in the past.

This post shows a frightening lack of empathy for one, but more importantly a working knowledge of modern HR practices and real world impacts to public statements like this.

It also shows the usual "argue whats not being said". Absolutely nobody is saying that Ulster shouldn't be reasonably open and honest. We are saying that there is a professional way in which that can be done. This is very much not it. You can say that the playing group isn't good enough without throwing players under the bus. You can be honest and tactful at the same time.

Bad references are almost completely a thing of the past. Many employers these days will not allow anyone but their HR department actually give references. Because there is a genuine precedent for legal action being taken against organisations for bad references. While it may not happen, comments like these leave Ulster Rugby vulnerable to such action.

irishbucsfan · 13-03-2018 11:06AM

Former Former wrote: »

We have absolutely no idea what he said. I'm not being a dick but we're playing Chinese whispers here.

This is true actually. I wouldn't be surprised if some creative license has been taken. Worth keeping in mind.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 11:06AM

awec wrote: »

Can’t stand a player?

Are you trying to suggest it’s just cause we don’t like them?

This is getting ridiculous now.

Can't stand / don't rate / think they're ****e / whatever

In so many words Cunningham was asked why a player was so ****e and he agreed. ****ing hell.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 11:07AM

Former Former wrote: »

We have absolutely no idea what he said. I'm not being a dick but we're playing Chinese whispers here.

See where I said "based on those paraphrases/quotes" earlier. I really hope it is Chinese Whispers.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:08AM

Buer wrote: »

Absolutely nobody is saying that. You don't say it publicly because it's bad management. Behind the cameras, rip into them, cancel their contract, tell them they're not worth having in the squad.

But you don't shame one of your employees in public particularly in a straightforward Q&A where you can deal with such a question with a straight bat no problem.

It’s not a straightforward Q and A. This was no fluffy PR exercise.

Cunningham and co we’re getting asked hard, specific questions from a crowd that was fairly pissed off at the continual slide. You had supporters walking out. The CEO being absolutely slated. People demanding answers.

Bryn has already said Ulster are desperate for ST renewals. He can hardly say that then give them some wishy washy bollocks answer to their valid questions.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 11:08AM

awec wrote: »

Why is it you have been saying all along when people talked about getting rid of Kiss that the players need to take responsibility, but now have done a u turn?

When you say players responsibility did you mean some fluffy group hug type thing where we just ignore the players who aren’t cutting the mustard and just talk about the team as a collective to avoid the hard discussions?

I am fairly certain dire performances on the field will have a far greater impact on future prospects than what Bryn Cunningham says in a season ticket holder meeting.

Hasn't my point almost always been that the players aren't there? Not that they need to take responsibility? And players taking responsibility means that they work hard to identify and fix the issues. Not that they publicly diss themselves and others. Honestly awec, at times I wonder what planet you're living on. There are other things in life, hell there are other things in a professional rugby organisation, than just the performances on the pitch. And those things all feed the performances on the pitch. Hanging people out to dry like that is poor form. Regardless of industry or the level of publicity.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:09AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Hasn't my point almost always been that the players aren't there? Not that they need to take responsibility? And players taking responsibility means that they work hard to identify and fix the issues. Not that they publicly diss themselves and others. Honestly awec, at times I wonder what planet you're living on. There are other things in life, hell there are other things in a professional rugby organisation, than just the performances on the pitch. And those things all feed the performances on the pitch. Hanging people out to dry like that is poor form. Regardless of industry or the level of publicity.

“Work hard to identify and fix the issues”.

Honestly this doesn’t mean anything. It’s a wishy washy nothing answer. Just work harder, that’s the solution to the problems.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 11:10AM

awec wrote: »

Bryn has already said Ulster are desperate for ST renewals. He can hardly say that then give them some wishy washy bollocks answer to their valid questions.

I think maybe I should just repeat this line over and over until it (or maybe in the hope that it will) sink in.....

You can be honest and tactful at the same time.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:12AM

molloyjh wrote: »

I think maybe I should just repeat this line over and over until it (or maybe in the hope that it will) sink in.....

You can be honest and tactful at the same time.

He was. He could have said “van der Merwe, yea he is actually completely rubbish. Struggles in the AIL, not related to a pro prop. Waste of time and money”.

But he didn’t. He said he knows he needs to improve. Outrageous.

Sangre · 13-03-2018 11:15AM

awec wrote: »

Ah gimme a break. A betrayal of trust.

I can only imagine the reaction if he has given such a cowardly and vacuous answer to the hard questions.

The cowardly response is throwing individual players under the bus to a bunch of supporters.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 11:17AM

awec wrote: »

“Work hard to identify and fix the issues”.

Honestly this doesn’t mean anything. It’s a wishy washy nothing answer. Just work harder, that’s the solution to the problems.

I didn't say work harder. Jesus, this is impossible.

awec · 13-03-2018 11:20AM

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't say work harder. Jesus, this is impossible.

Yes you did. You said “work hard to identify and fix the issues”.

What does that even mean?

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 11:30AM

awec wrote: »

Bryn has already said Ulster are desperate for ST renewals. He can hardly say that then give them some wishy washy bollocks answer to their valid questions.

If renewing one's season ticket with Ulster is contingent on upper management throwing players on the bus then well....nothing left to say.

molloyjh · 13-03-2018 11:32AM

awec wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't say work harder. Jesus, this is impossible.

Yes you did. You said “work hard to identify and fix the issues”.

What does that even mean?

It means have open and honest review sessions after games where players and coaches give honest assessments of their performances. They then identify what needs to be done to address those issues, e.g. more intense training sessions or whatever. The things every team out there does to address poor performances. Things like Carton House in 2009 where players spoke up and faced some hard truths.

These things are internal process driven to have a productive impact. They are exactly the kind of thing you see in any team environment, sport or not, when things don’t go well. None of it is rocket science. It is not “wishy washy”. It is completely standard stuff.

In an environment where the man with ultimate responsibility for the playing group is hanging people out to dry I can’t see how the culture required for a productive session like that can ever happen. It’s far too blame game oriented.

arsebiscuits1 · 13-03-2018 11:40AM

People including myself have mentioned it but would Ulster go after Pete Dooley?

Cunningham has said they're looking for a loosehead. He is firmly 4th choice now at Leinster but I think is a cracking player.

A 24 year old prop with European experience would be a valuable acquisition and having seen Ulsters front row, I think Dooley would be first choice pretty quickly up there

irishfan9 · 13-03-2018 11:41AM

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

People including myself have mentioned it but would Ulster go after Pete Dooley?

Cunningham has said they're looking for a loosehead. He is firmly 4th choice now at Leinster but I think is a cracking player.

A 24 year old prop with European experience would be a valuable acquisition and having seen Ulsters front row, I think Dooley would be first choice pretty quickly up there

Of course they would, would he be interested in leaving leinster is another thing entirely.

thomond2006 · 13-03-2018 11:44AM

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

People including myself have mentioned it but would Ulster go after Pete Dooley?

Cunningham has said they're looking for a loosehead. He is firmly 4th choice now at Leinster but I think is a cracking player.

A 24 year old prop with European experience would be a valuable acquisition and having seen Ulsters front row, I think Dooley would be first choice pretty quickly up there

Dooley should leave. Healy's resurgence in the last 12 months means the top two LH spots at Leinster are fixed for the forseeable future.

arsebiscuits1 · 13-03-2018 11:52AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Dooley should leave. Healy's resurgence in the last 12 months means the top two LH spots at Leinster are fixed for the forseeable future.

Agree. And Byrne leapfrogged Dooley the second he was back to full fitness. It's clear he's rated higher.

He's at a precarious stage of his career. One wrong move and he's out in the cold.

Ulster would be mad to not buy Irish and I genuinely think Dooley could be an international player (probably more 5-10 caps than 20-30 but still)

He's at a good age where the established 3 looseheads for Ireland aren't exactly whippersnappers (they've all got years left in them but I think there's opportunity there post 2019)

irishfan9 · 13-03-2018 11:52AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Dooley should leave. Healy's resurgence in the last 12 months means the top two LH spots at Leinster are fixed for the forseeable future.

He probably should but there is no indication that he is going to.

$ausage$ · 13-03-2018 11:52AM

I think that its great to hear some truth, all be it his truth. As a ex agent you think he would be less direct. I guess its different to what maybe a lot of you are used to in day to day jobs but sports have a curve around HR values. Football would not do this as it would devalue the asset. Rugby however do not have the signing fees yet so he can throw them under the bus to either try to get them to leave or to use them as a stick to hit others with. Some of these guys might need the tough love.

Do I agree with it? from a rugby point of view yes. everyone is complaining about how he said i. Not many are correcting what he said. That in its self says lots. The players are not what Ulster are used too.
However, last time I remember a meeting like this was when Humph was doing his best Judas on McGlock so I hope someone can turn it around.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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