Defecting from Church

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:08PM

Your baptism was a definitive event.
Your parents made an appointment with a healthcare professional.
Your parents brought you to get your MMR vaccine. It was given to you, and a record was made of the incident.
Likewise,
Your parents made an appointment with the priest.
They asked people they knew to be your godparents.
They bought a special candle.
On the big day they got you all dressed up and they brought you to the church and you were baptized a Catholic.
Nobody dragged them there.
I would suggest that it’s your parents you should have the issue with and you really should take it up with them and I wonder if you have?
It did happen and you can’t go back in a time machine and undo it.
Apart from feeling aggrieved with the church instead of parents, how is the fact that you were baptized affecting your day to day life?

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 07:10PM

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

You are the one who is concerned about being forever considered a Catholic.
I don’t consider you to be a Catholic at all.
There are over 1 billion other people who are either happy to be Catholics or don’t care one way or the other.
Your attaching a huge importance to something that you don’t believe in and that means nothing to you.
It’s extraordinary really.
But...keep agonizing anyway...

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 07:11PM

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

You want the record corrected.
What details in the record are incorrect Daithi ?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:14PM

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem very triggered at the thought of someone wanting their name removed. How exactly will it affect you? I was baptised and now I want that record deleted and my name removed. You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded. I want that record either deleted or amended to reflect my defection since that is the official record held by the Catholic Church. It’s quite simple. Don’t know why you are so against the idea unless you don’t want people leaving.

You are the one who is concerned about being forever considered a Catholic.
I don’t consider you to be a Catholic at all.
There are over 1 billion other people who are either happy to be Catholics or don’t care one way or the other.
Your attaching a huge importance to something that you don’t believe in and that means nothing to you.
It’s extraordinary really.
But...keep agonizing anyway...

The Catholic religion is of no consideration to me personally. My name being used on their documents is. It’s quite simple. My name on that list means a huge significance to me. Why you consider my wanting my name on a baptismal register removed a great upset to yourself is beyond me. Enjoy your faith and your church, I just don’t want to be apart of it.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 07:15PM

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

I'm not aware of any legal reason why the Catholic Church, any of its orders or any other religion would be exempt from EU data protection law.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 07:15PM

What is this word 'triggered'?
I think it's more 'bored and killing time'.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:15PM

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic. Don’t know why this bothers you so much.

Again I cancelled my Tesco card, I am no longer considered a Tesco club card member. I was registered before and now I’m not. Simples.

You want the record corrected.
What details in the record are incorrect Daithi ?

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:16PM

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

Once GDPR comes into effect in May I will be sending off a request.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 07:17PM

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

It certainly should be worth a go to people who find its casting a long dark shadow over their lives.
The solicitors will certainly be rubbing their hands in glee, and best of luck to them.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:18PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Skedaddle wrote: »

I actually wonder if this could be challenged under EU and Irish data protection legislation. It's crazy that you can't amend your records or have data deleted anymore.

It certainly should be worth a go to people who find its casting a long dark shadow over their lives.
The solicitors will certainly be rubbing their hands in glee, and best of luck to them.

It should be a simple request and free of charge. Akin to the FOI requests process. Will be interesting to test.

fxotoole · 12-03-2018 07:19PM

ifElseThen wrote: »

Given the Catholic church no longer allow formal defection, would it be possible to register placeholder organisation/religion to allow you to "convert" to that, thereby leaving the Catholic church.

Church of the flying spaghetti monster

Ewan Hoosarmi · 12-03-2018 07:20PM

fxotoole wrote: »

Church of the flying spaghetti monster

Sauce be upon him.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 07:20PM

daithi84 wrote: »

Once GDPR comes into effect in May I will be sending off a request.

Even under existing legislation it would be an interesting avenue to explore. The GDPR would be tougher though.

I defected a few years ago, just ahead of their rule change. It was primarily that I am not at all religious and just did not want to be associated with the organisation as I was absolutely appalled at how it was dealing with various scandals at the time and also its attitudes to homosexuality.

So, I just felt that it wasn't something I had ever voluntarily subscribed to and I was damned if they were going to be including me as one of their members when I don't see eye-to-eye with them on a whole load of non-theological issues and I'm also an atheist.

For the sake of not being a total hypocrite about it, it seemed utterly reasonable to have that data amended and I think it's very unfair and utterly unreasonable not to be able to do that.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 07:20PM

daithi84 wrote: »

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

You were never a registered catholic because there’s no register of Catholics.
Any where.
Ever.
You are registered in a parish register of sacraments as being baptized a Catholic because you were baptized a Catholic.

Skedaddle · 12-03-2018 07:22PM

When I sent in the relevant form, I got a fairly weird long letter from a priest I have no memory of ever meeting going on about me as a child and how he remember me in school. I have no idea how he remembered me from school as I was only in that school for about 1 year and have no memory of ever even having a conversation with him.

It was perfectly polite and he wished me well, but just strange.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 07:36PM

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

That I am not a registered catholic. Don’t know why your knickers are in a twist, the Catholic Church had no problem pre 2008 to correct the record. Think they stamped it “defected”. I’d be quite happy with that.

You were never a registered catholic because there’s no register of Catholics.
Any where.
Ever.
You are registered in a parish register of sacraments as being baptized a Catholic because you were baptized a Catholic.

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 07:57PM

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic.

You are not denying the event occurred, but want the record corrected. But the record is correct. You were baptised. That has nothing to state about your religious beliefs subsequent to the event. It's a record, by your own use of the term. Records are not used to predict the future. Deleting it denies the past rather than determining the future.

TheChizler · 12-03-2018 08:01PM

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded.

The Church hold that exact view. They consider any person who has ever been baptised a Catholic, whether they have a note added to the baptism rigister, are officially excommunicated by the Pope (look it up!), or your entire parish burns down and all records are destroyed. The Church will never consider you anything but a Catholic no matter what you do, maybe a reluctant one.

By that definition I'm still a Catholic, but it has as much meaning to me as that religion (can't remember which) who go around adding names from gravestones to a members register they keep. Let them believe what they want, it won't have any impact on anyone else's life as long as I don't write it on the census or attend mass.

You're giving meaning to an opinion that even the church doesn't hold (that your name in a register has any more meaning than the event happened at this date), and validating some sort of hold over you. The only effect getting them to amend it would have is inconveniencing the local PP or some admin staff.

Go for it of you can but their opinion will always be the same: you are a Catholic.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 08:04PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Again I am not denying the event occurred, I am wanting the record corrected and my name removed, redacted or note stating I am no longer a Catholic.

You are not denying the event occurred, but want the record corrected. But the record is correct. You were baptised. That has nothing to state about your religious beliefs subsequent to the event. It's a record, by your own use of the term. Records are not used to predict the future. Deleting it denies the past rather than determining the future.

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 08:13PM

TheChizler wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

You seem to think a baptism has magical powers that once baptised I am forever catholic. The record of that event is recorded.

The Church hold that exact view. They consider any person who has ever been baptised a Catholic, whether they have a note added to the baptism rigister, are officially excommunicated by the Pope (look it up!), or your entire parish burns down and all records are destroyed. The Church will never consider you anything but a Catholic no matter what you do, maybe a reluctant one.

By that definition I'm still a Catholic, but it has as much meaning to me as that religion (can't remember which) who go around adding names from gravestones to a members register they keep. Let them believe what they want, it won't have any impact on anyone else's life as long as I don't write it on the census or attend mass.

You're giving meaning to an opinion that even the church doesn't hold (that your name in a register has any more meaning than the event happened at this date), and validating some sort of hold over you. The only effect getting them to amend it would have is inconveniencing the local PP or some admin staff.

Go for it of you can but their opinion will always be the same: you are a Catholic.

The grave thing is the Mormons I think. I really haven’t thought about it in a few years until I seen this post. It’s a personal thing so I will attempt to remove it under the GDPR. If it doesn’t work c’èst la vie.

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 08:14PM

daithi84 wrote: »

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

you seem to think I am a catholic?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 08:15PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

Your own church corrected the record prior to 2008 so if i were you I’d take it up with them. Done before can be done again.

you seem to think I am a catholic?

You seem to think I care one way or the other.

splinter65 · 12-03-2018 08:17PM

daithi84 wrote: »

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

I have issues with people who are not Catholics using the church as a pretty dropback to family days out.
I’ve already said that.
To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.
Apart from that I’m amused at the idea that we can time travel and undo what’s done.
It’s also interesting that you don’t hold your family responsible at all for you being on the baptism register?

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 08:23PM

splinter65 wrote: »

daithi84 wrote: »

So I was registered baptised a Catholic, sounds like a register of Catholics to me. Well i would like the record amended in the original parish that I have defected. I see you have issues with people leaving but it was done before and that’s what I want to happen. You can try twist this situation all you like but I want the record with my personal data deleted or amended, preferably deleted as was the case prior to 2008.

I have issues with people who are not Catholics using the church as a pretty dropback to family days out.
I’ve already said that.
To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.
Apart from that I’m amused at the idea that we can time travel and undo what’s done.
It’s also interesting that you don’t hold your family responsible at all for you being on the baptism register?

I’ve had the conversations with my family. My family like most these days are extremely against the organisational church and times were a lot different 35 years ago. I think it was mostly done for the sake of my grandparents and school access.

I’m amused you think the record is just a record of an event, especially since the Church had a formal process for removing your name and then went to great lengths to stop it once too many people starting applying.

As I said before I do not avail of any church services and will not in the future.

As far as I’m aware if you do want to avail of sacraments or what not in a church you do need to prove you are a Catholic.

Robert McGrath · 12-03-2018 08:24PM

Approximately 8 seconds ago I started a new religion.

This religion is called Robertology and shares all of its doctrines and dogma with the Roman Catholic Church with one small difference. The Church of Robertology publicly believes that the abuse of children is ok, and believes that the Catholic Church should never have apologised for this.

I have decided that daithi84 is a member of the Church of Robertology and can never leave, whether he believes in it or not. I have also decided that all of daithi84’s friends and family, and everyone he has ever met, are now Robertologists, whether they have heard of the religion or not, and they can never leave either.

You should probably include me in that Data Protection complaint

The high horse brigade · 12-03-2018 08:41PM

By definition isn't a religion you can't leave a cult?

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 09:09PM

splinter65 wrote: »

To that end I think that every parish should have a register of practising Catholics which you will be removed from if you don’t participate in parish life and you can remove yourself from at any time.
If you present yourself or your child for a sacrament in any parish in the world, you need an up to date printout from your home parish indicating your participation.

why do you care though? if people want to live by a creed you find hypocritical, why are you formulating rules for participation in a belief system you don't believe in yourself?

magicbastarder · 12-03-2018 09:10PM

the catholic church in ireland is dying not from opposition, but from apathy.

TheChizler · 12-03-2018 09:27PM

daithi84 wrote: »

The grave thing is the Mormons I think. I really haven’t thought about it in a few years until I seen this post. It’s a personal thing so I will attempt to remove it under the GDPR. If it doesn’t work c’èst la vie.

Best of luck but as linked above the DPC considers it a record of an event not a current affiliation.

daithi84 · 12-03-2018 10:47PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Best of luck but as linked above the DPC considers it a record of an event not a current affiliation.

Thanks for the link. I'll keep you posted

Defecting from Church

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