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Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

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Comments

  • #602
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #603
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    No one is here to defend stupid laws. And no one is naive, least of all myself.

    I'm fully aware that I cannot be completely free and that is the price to pay to live in a civilised society. This is the way it has been since the dawn of man, don't obey the laws of the tribe? Then there is no place for you there. Of course we have moved on and it is ourselves that place the limits on what is acceptable. You go too far, for I will not accept the right of anyone to espouse guff like 'we hate blacks' or similar, and if they do, well it's time to pick up some teeth.


  • #604
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #605
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Where have I made such an argument? Talk about intellectual dishonesty.


  • #606
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    20Cent has previously claimed that hate speech legislation causes no issues in Europe. So is he troubled by the use of this legislation to prosecute and convict anti-Israeli protesters of inciting hatred?[/quote]
    I highlighted anti Israel activists being brought to court in France for urging a boycott of Israel goods earlier in this thread.

    "" Take for example in the past in France anti Israel activists who urge boycott of Israeli goods were found guilty of " hate speech " in court.

    The activists in their view feel their engaging in a legitimate form of protest,, but the courts felt differently.
     

    ( please note even though I don,t agree with them- I don,t believe in trying silence them either.)  ""

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106214845&postcount=482

    20cent dodged the questions in my full post-  with his reply.

    "" Slippery slope argument.
    Plenty of methods to regulate such things same argument could be said about any law.  ""


    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106215027&postcount=484


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  • #607
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Havockk wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    No one is here to defend stupid laws. And no one is naive, least of all myself.

    I'm fully aware that I cannot be completely free and that is the price to pay to live in a civilised society. This is the way it has been since the dawn of man, don't obey the laws of the tribe? Then there is no place for you there. Of course we have moved on and it is ourselves that place the limits on what is acceptable. You go too far, for I will not accept the right of anyone to espouse guff like 'we hate blacks' or similar, and if they do, well it's time to pick up some teeth.[/quote]
    If you have laws against so called " hate speech " what one may see as a legitimate argument or a legitimate form of protest,, if someone feels its " hate speech " against them-  & if it goes to court its all about what way the court will Interpret things regardless if people agree or disagree with the courts final decision.


  • #608
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Allow me to put it this way.

    If myself, Permabear and a Jew were standing on a corner drinking Buckfast, and a man walks up and starts telling the Jew he is sub-human garbage.

    Who do you think the Jew would rather have beside him. Me or my erstwhile friend Permabear, who thinks that is acceptable?


  • #609
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Havockk wrote: »
    Allow me to put it this way.

    If myself, Permabear and a Jew were standing on a corner drinking Buckfast, and a man walks up and starts telling the Jew he is sub-human garbage.

    Who do you think the Jew would rather have beside him. Me or my erstwhile friend Permabear, who thinks that is acceptable?



    Mod note:

    Please don't goad other posters.


  • #610
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #611
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    PB, I don't think you are a racist or anything else, it's just our lines in the sand are at different places. Unfortunately, not everyone shares our common values. In the ideal world, racism or any of that other crap would not exist, but for as long as it does then absolute free speech is too open to abuse.


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  • #612
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Havockk wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    PB, I don't think you are a racist or anything else, it's just our lines in the sand are at different places. Unfortunately, not everyone shares our common values. In the ideal world, racism or any of that other crap would not exist, but for as long as it does then absolute free speech is too open to abuse.[/quote]
    " Racism " & " racist " are terms that get loosely used & loosely thrown around these days .

    Examples

    Example 1 

    Someone describes their experience of living near travellers on a FB thread & gets a typical reply of  " your [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]generalisations are racist " .[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]445292.png[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Example 2[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]A girl asked to change groups in school because only 1 pupil in the group spoke english & she couldn,t understand the rest of the pupils in the group,, the teachers response was to accuse the girl of " racism " .[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6047514.stm[/font]


  • #613
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,941 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Per a quotation often attributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    Nice quote bet it makes one feel super moral and good saying it but complete rubbish. I don't recall anyone dying to rescue Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden. Actually right wingers were lining up to condemn them.

    Claiming there can't be laws because some authoritarian regime in the future might abuse them is nonsense. It could be said of any law. This thread is like that Jordan Peterson interview. Maybe we shouldn't have Nazi's giving talks on campuses.
    So you're saying you want Gulags and book burning.

    FFS.


  • #614
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    The Legend Of Kira wrote: »
    " Racism " & " racist " are terms that get loosely used & loosely thrown around these days .

    Examples

    Example 1 

    Someone describes their experience of living near travellers on a FB thread & gets a typical reply of  " your [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]generalisations are racist " .[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]445292.png[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Example 2[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]A girl asked to change groups in school because only 1 pupil in the group spoke english & she couldn,t understand the rest of the pupils in the group,, the teachers response was to accuse the girl of " racism " .[/font]

    [font=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/6047514.stm[/font]


    Completely irrelevant.

    I accept my little scenario is fairly silly but it gets to the root of the issue. I will not accept that behaviour at all. Others, even if they do not agree with what a racist would say would defend his right to say it.


  • #615
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    20Cent wrote: »
    Per a quotation often attributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    Nice quote bet it makes one feel super moral and good saying it but complete rubbish. I don't recall anyone dying to rescue Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden. Actually right wingers were lining up to condemn them.

    Claiming there can't be laws because some authoritarian regime in the future might abuse them is nonsense. It could be said of any law. This thread is like that Jordan Peterson interview. Maybe we shouldn't have Nazi's giving talks on campuses.
    So you're saying you want Gulags and book burning.

    FFS.

    I understand your frustration. Free speech, hate speech and incitement to hatred are all fairly thorny issues.

    Society at large are free to criticise ideas, but I really do draw the line at legal punishment for the expression of ideas.

    Look at the current White house administration. Trump has attacked the free press repeatedly. He's expressed interest in regulating the press. He's expressed interest in amending libel laws to make it easier to sue. Are you telling me someone worse than Trump wouldn't use these laws to imprison dissenters?

    Freedom of expression should be sacrosanct in any functioning democracy.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #616
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Havockk wrote: »
    Completely irrelevant.

    I accept my little scenario is fairly silly but it gets to the root of the issue. I will not accept that behaviour at all. Others, even if they do not agree with what a racist would say would defend his right to say it.

    Defending someone's right to say something, doesn't mean you'd stand idly by while they said it. I will always draw the line at a violent reaction, but that doesn't mean hate speech will go unchallenged.

    Free speech means the freedom to express ideas without government retaliation. It doesn't mean the right to say what you want without any repercussion.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #617
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,071 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Brian? wrote: »

    Freedom of expression should be sacrosanct in any functioning democracy.

    Yes, this.

    The poster who alluded that people should be afraid to air their views, should take note.


  • #618
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,941 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Brian? wrote: »
    I understand your frustration. Free speech, hate speech and incitement to hatred are all fairly thorny issues.

    Society at large are free to criticise ideas, but I really do draw the line at legal punishment for the expression of ideas.

    Look at the current White house administration. Trump has attacked the free press repeatedly. He's expressed interest in regulating the press. He's expressed interest in amending libel laws to make it easier to sue. Are you telling me someone worse than Trump wouldn't use these laws to imprison dissenters?

    Freedom of expression should be sacrosanct in any functioning democracy.

    Wonder does the black girl afraid in her dorm room because some thugs are chanting we hate blacks outside it appreciate this expression of ideas.

    Make no mistake this type pf behaviour is emboldened by the normalisation of such views.


  • #619
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Brian? wrote: »
    Defending someone's right to say something, doesn't mean you'd stand idly by while they said it. I will always draw the line at a violent reaction, but that doesn't mean hate speech will go unchallenged.

    Free speech means the freedom to express ideas without government retaliation. It doesn't mean the right to say what you want without any repercussion.

    Well Brian, You could be correct in that assessment but Permabear or others have not adequately explained how they would challenge someone in that kind of situation. Look at the video of that young lady at university - I thought the response was telling. There was no challenge, only comments to point out that there was nothing intrinsically wrong with what had happened.

    I find that an unacceptable response. Now I respect your stance on violence, I'd go as far as to say you were a better man than me for I can't make that claim.

    Political free speech is another matter. Personally I think Libertarianism is the spawn of Beelzebub, however I don't oppose anyone's right to argue for it. An idea lives and dies on it's own merit.


  • #620
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Brian? wrote: »
    20Cent wrote: »
    Per a quotation often attributed to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    Nice quote bet it makes one feel super moral and good saying it but complete rubbish. I don't recall anyone dying to rescue Chelsea Manning or Edward Snowden. Actually right wingers were lining up to condemn them.

    Claiming there can't be laws because some authoritarian regime in the future might abuse them is nonsense. It could be said of any law. This thread is like that Jordan Peterson interview. Maybe we shouldn't have Nazi's giving talks on campuses.
    So you're saying you want Gulags and book burning.
     
    FFS.

    I understand your frustration. Free speech, hate speech and incitement to hatred are all fairly thorny issues.

    Society at large are free to criticise ideas, but I really do draw the line at legal punishment for the expression of ideas.

    Look at the current White house administration. Trump has attacked the free press repeatedly. He's expressed interest in regulating the press. He's expressed interest in amending libel laws  to make it easier to sue. Are you telling me someone worse than Trump wouldn't use these laws to imprison dissenters?

    Freedom of expression should be sacrosanct in any functioning democracy.
    "" Look at the current White house administration. Trump has attacked the free press repeatedly. He's expressed interest in regulating the press. He's expressed interest in amending libel laws to make it easier to sue. ""

    Regarding freedom of the press & what the media should be free to publish- I hold a view that the media should be free to publish stories & articles as long what they re publishing is the actual truth,, if something is published about someone that isn,t true- then it can be classed that as libel/defamation & yes Id support someones right to sue if something untrue about them was published in the newspapers/media.

    One example that comes to mind is the News of the worlds name & shame campaign back in 2000,, where they printed articles naming sex offenders- the problem was they named quite a few wrong people as being sex offenders which led to attacks on innocent law abiding citizens .

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/newspaper-campaign-led-to-series-of-attacks-on-innocent-people-9225018.html

    "" One man has already called in the leading libel specialists Peter Carter-Ruck & Partners. Michael Horgan, a 55-year-old father of two from south London, was targeted by an anti-paedophile group after the News of the World published his name, which he shares with a paedophile who lives in his neighbourhood. The Sunday paper has refused to publish a clarification, and now, Mr Horgan, an engineer, is considering suing the paper for defamation in a claim that could be worth as much as £100,000 in damages.
    Mr Horgan's troubles began on 2 August when his name, telephone number and address wrongly appeared on a list of paedophiles circulated in the Lewisham area. Although he was able to convince some of his neighbours that it was a case of mistaken identity he said he was "terrified" by the risk to his family. The police responded by placing a permanent guard on his home and diverting all telephone calls to his home. ""

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/named-shamed-and-suing-711160.html

    Once again the media should be free to publish stories/articles as long as what,s being published is actually true .


  • #621
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    20Cent wrote: »
    Wonder does the black girl afraid in her dorm room because some thugs are chanting we hate blacks outside it appreciate this expression of ideas.

    Make no mistake this type pf behaviour is emboldened by the normalisation of such views.

    I wouldnt imagine she does. I absolutely detest the shouters. I fell terrible for her. But if we erode our basic freedoms people like that win.

    Why is no one in her dorm shouting back?

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



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  • #622
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 23,070 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Havockk wrote: »
    Well Brian, You could be correct in that assessment but Permabear or others have not adequately explained how they would challenge someone in that kind of situation. Look at the video of that young lady at university - I thought the response was telling. There was no challenge, only comments to point out that there was nothing intrinsically wrong with what had happened.

    I find that an unacceptable response. Now I respect your stance on violence, I'd go as far as to say you were a better man than me for I can't make that claim.

    Political free speech is another matter. Personally I think Libertarianism is the spawn of Beelzebub, however I don't oppose anyone's right to argue for it. An idea lives and dies on it's own merit.

    I'm really shocked that no one in that girls dorm stood up for her. Horrible.

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #623
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Just one other point. Shouting racist statements is not an idea, it's just hate.


  • #624
    20Cent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,941 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Havockk wrote: »
    Just one other point. Shouting racist statements is not an idea, it's just hate.

    Apparently if they put a shirt and tie on. Book a lecture room in a university and say they are identitarians who advocate for a white ethnostate its ok.
    I'd see them as being the same thing and should not be allowed.


  • #625
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Havockk wrote: »
    Just one other point. Shouting racist statements is not an idea, it's just hate.

    but where does it stop

    a black girl hiding from drunk idiots shouting 'we hate blacks' is pretty widely regarded as hate speech , a lot of people would send them to prison for that.

    but say socialists protesting to 'smash capitalism' protesting outside a bank , its hate speech towards capitalists , should they be stopped ?

    pro-life protestors calling girls going in to abortion clinics scum and murderers , is that hate speech ?

    where do we draw the line on ideologies ?


  • #626
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,071 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Havockk wrote: »
    Just one other point. Shouting racist statements is not an idea, it's just hate.

    They question is, should it be illegal and punishable with a conviction?

    Most people agree that its not nice to shout out racist statements, but should we jail everyone who makes such a statement? I guess in your world, the answer would be emphatically be yes, yes we should.


  • #627
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    but where does it stop

    a black girl hiding from drunk idiots shouting 'we hate blacks' is pretty widely regarded as hate speech , a lot of people would send them to prison for that.

    but say socialists protesting to 'smash capitalism' protesting outside a bank , its hate speech towards capitalists , should they be stopped ?

    pro-life protestors calling girls going in to abortion clinics scum and murderers , is that hate speech ?

    where do we draw the line on ideologies ?

    Capitalism is an idea. It's fair game to attack it. You don't like me cause I'm a marxist, no bother it's not hate.
    markodaly wrote: »
    They question is, should it be illegal and punishable with a conviction?

    Most people agree that its not nice to shout out racist statements, but should we jail everyone who makes such a statement? I guess in your world, the answer would be emphatically be yes, yes we should.

    Yes it should be both illegal and punishable.


  • #628
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Havockk wrote: »
    Capitalism is an idea. It's fair game to attack it. You don't like me cause I'm a marxist, no bother it's not hate.

    but what makes christianity, judaism, islam any different to capitalism, marxism etc... they're all belief systems that are held by choice by individuals, what separates them in the context of hate speech ?


  • #629
    The Legend Of Kira
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 726 ✭✭✭The Legend Of Kira


    Havockk wrote: »
    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    but where does it stop

    a black girl hiding from drunk idiots shouting 'we hate blacks' is pretty widely regarded as hate speech , a lot of people would send them to prison for that.

    but say socialists protesting to 'smash capitalism' protesting outside a bank , its hate speech towards capitalists , should they be stopped ?

    pro-life protestors calling girls going in to abortion clinics scum and murderers , is that hate speech ?

    where do we draw the line on ideologies ?

    Capitalism is an idea. It's fair game to attack it. You don't like me cause I'm a marxist, no bother it's not hate.
    markodaly wrote: »
    They question is, should it be illegal and punishable with a conviction?

    Most people agree that its not nice to shout out racist statements, but should we jail everyone who makes such a statement? I guess in your world, the answer would be emphatically be yes, yes we should.

    Yes it should be both illegal and punishable.
    "" Yes it should be both illegal and punishable. ""

    What one might regard as a " racist statement "  others might regard as common sense,, take for example the issue of face covering in public/the burka- last year Ukip had in their party manifesto a pledge to ban the burka,, but some seen this as " racist " given that some seen this as " racist " should it be illegal in your opinion for anyone to publicly express a critical view of face covering/wearing the burka ?

    http://www.standuptoracism.org.uk/immediate-release-anti-racists-condemn-ukip-manifesto-pledge-ban-burqa/


  • #630
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    but what makes christianity, judaism, islam any different to capitalism, marxism etc... they're all belief systems that are held by choice by individuals, what separates them in the context of hate speech ?

    Attack the institution in that case. Not the individual.


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  • #631
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,242 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Havockk wrote: »
    Attack the institution in that case. Not the individual.

    "islam is a cancer in Europe" is attacking the institution, hate speech or not ?


This discussion has been closed.
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