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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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  • #8882
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    average_runner wrote: »
    Go thru the thread yourself. Not doing your work.


    Repel need to play it wisely, play on the sympathy side, your target could be the father's of young daughters.

    how would that change their vote?


  • #8883
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    average_runner wrote: »
    For the repel to win, they need to change their message. They are alienating the men vote which is a silly thing to do.

    Saw messages saying men shouldn't vote on it.
    And the other side who have employed convicted armed robber and gun runner to lie about being an abortion clinic worker, who have planted their own people in pro choice marches with the express aim to deliberately sabotage it using OTT placards and fascist signs, who have often tried to shame women for daring to have sex, even when contraception is used? Their tactics are fine and dandy?


  • #8884
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    average_runner wrote: »
    For the repel to win, they need to change their message. They are alienating the men vote which is a silly thing to do.

    Saw messages saying men shouldn't vote on it.

    That's actually not the message that Coalition to Repeal the 8th Amendment, the Abortion Rights Campaign and many other large pro-choice organisations are spreading, in fact, it's the opposite.

    I've had many men over the past week or so tell me they feel they shouldn't vote because it has nothing to do with them. Which isn't true! They have an important role to play in the run up to the referendum and if they want their wife's, mother's, daughter's, cousins', aunts etc to have bodily autonomy then they will need to get out and vote on referendum day to make sure that happens.


  • #8885
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    January wrote: »
    That's actually not the message that Coalition to Repeal the 8th Amendment, the Abortion Rights Campaign and many other large pro-choice organisations are spreading, in fact, it's the opposite.

    I've had many men over the past week or so tell me they feel they shouldn't vote because it has nothing to do with them. Which isn't true! They have an important role to play in the run up to the referendum and if they want their wife's, mother's, daughter's, cousins', aunts etc to have bodily autonomy then they will need to get out and vote on referendum day to make sure that happens.

    My opinion is that as a man I shouldn't have a veto on whether a woman has full bodily autonomy but I can vote to ensure that veto is removed. That is why I am voting to repeal the eight.

    Do I believe abortion is right, no I don't but I recognise that life is not black and white and individuals should have as much control over their destiny as possible. They should have a choice, they should have the headspace to discuss their options without being shamed or labelled as murderers.


  • #8886
    Cally Caleigh
    Site Banned Posts: 17 ✭Cally Caleigh


    Are there any statistics available for some of the arguments being put forward such as,

    1. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a fatal fetal abnormality?
    2. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a serious threat to the mother's life? (e.g. where the mother will die if the pregnancy is not terminated).
    3. What % of abortions in the UK (our closest neighbour where abortion is legal and Irish women travel to for abortion) are carried out to terminate a pregnancy with fatal fetal abnormality or where the mother's life is in danger?

    Asking sincerely by the way, I do not know the answers to above questions but feel they are important personally in deciding which way to vote.


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  • #8887
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Cally Caleigh wrote: »
    Are there any statistics available for some of the arguments being put forward such as,

    1. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a fatal fetal abnormality?
    2. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a serious threat to the mother's life? (e.g. where the mother will die if the pregnancy is not terminated).
    3. What % of abortions in the UK (our closest neighbour where abortion is legal and Irish women travel to for abortion) are carried out to terminate a pregnancy with fatal fetal abnormality or where the mother's life is in danger?

    Asking sincerely by the way, I do not know the answers to above questions but feel they are important personally in deciding which way to vote.

    Do they really matter? Is it really any business of yours why any woman chooses to have an abortion.

    What are the factors that are important for you in deciding whether each woman has to make her own personal decision in whether she continues with a pregnancy or not? Why are they a factor? Like does it matter if for example 10% of Irish women abortions are due to failed contraception? What does it matter if 10% are from rape. Is there any difference between the two?


  • #8888
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    Cally Caleigh wrote: »
    Are there any statistics available for some of the arguments being put forward such as,

    1. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a fatal fetal abnormality?
    2. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a serious threat to the mother's life? (e.g. where the mother will die if the pregnancy is not terminated).
    3. What % of abortions in the UK (our closest neighbour where abortion is legal and Irish women travel to for abortion) are carried out to terminate a pregnancy with fatal fetal abnormality or where the mother's life is in danger?

    Asking sincerely by the way, I do not know the answers to above questions but feel they are important personally in deciding which way to vote.
    Thing is, that's not we're voting. We're voting to allow the government to legislate. Rather than having to handle the most minute details in the constitution which has resulted in multiple references to date.


  • #8889
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    amdublin wrote: »
    Do they really matter? Is it really any business of yours why any woman chooses to have an abortion.

    What are the factors that are important for you in deciding whether each woman has to make her own personal decision in whether she continues with a pregnancy or not? Why are they a factor? Like does it matter if for example 10% of Irish women abortions are due to failed contraception? What does it matter if 10% are from rape. Is there any difference between the two?

    You don't see any difference between failed contraception and rape!?


  • #8890
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,803 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Cally Caleigh wrote: »
    Are there any statistics available for some of the arguments being put forward such as,

    1. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a fatal fetal abnormality?
    2. What % of pregnancies in the Republic of Ireland result in a serious threat to the mother's life? (e.g. where the mother will die if the pregnancy is not terminated).
    3. What % of abortions in the UK (our closest neighbour where abortion is legal and Irish women travel to for abortion) are carried out to terminate a pregnancy with fatal fetal abnormality or where the mother's life is in danger?

    Asking sincerely by the way, I do not know the answers to above questions but feel they are important personally in deciding which way to vote.

    We're effectively voting yes or no to 'abortion on demand' up to 12 weeks, I don't see what bearing that data would have on your decision.


  • #8891
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Edward M wrote: »
    You don't see any difference between failed contraception and rape!?

    What is the difference in the context of us voting whether there should be abortion on request in Ireland or not?

    Oh dear... Please let us not be heading towards something like the rape committee discussion again
    "Yes I believe you were raped you can have an abortion in Ireland"
    "Nope you had sex of your own accord, contraception failed boo hoo, No abortion for you girlio"


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  • #8892
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,641 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    gandalf wrote: »
    My opinion is that as a man I shouldn't have a veto on whether a woman has full bodily autonomy but I can vote to ensure that veto is removed. That is why I am voting to repeal the eight.

    Do I believe abortion is right, no I don't but I recognise that life is not black and white and individuals should have as much control over their destiny as possible. They should have a choice, they should have the headspace to discuss their options without being shamed or labelled as murderers.

    As a woman I don't think I should have a veto on whether another woman has full bodily autonomy either, but we are where we are because pro life put this in our constitution.

    Everyone has a vote, so yes, voting to remove that right over other people and to give it back to pregnant women and their partners, is absolutely something we should all want to do. Male or female.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #8893
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Thing is, that's not we're voting. We're voting to allow the government to legislate. Rather than having to handle the most minute details in the constitution which has resulted in multiple references to date.


    Majority in Leinster House has already voted for 12 weeks limit, so that will be bottom line in legislation.

    You seem to forget that reason for repeal was to do with risk to mother's life, and in particular one case that the report into it showed that it had to do with hospital procedures, nothing whatsoever to do with "Catholic ethos" or refusing the poor woman any option.

    Whole debate now is about up to what stage abortion on demand will be permitted. They could at least be honest about it. If that's what people vote for then fair enough.


  • #8894
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Majority in Leinster House has already voted for 12 weeks limit, so that will be bottom line in legislation.

    You seem to forget that reason for repeal was to do with risk to mother's life, and in particular one case that the report into it showed that it had to do with hospital procedures, nothing whatsoever to do with "Catholic ethos" or refusing the poor woman any option.

    Whole debate now is about up to what stage abortion on demand will be permitted. They could at least be honest about it. If that's what people vote for then fair enough.

    You're forgetting that a lot of the procedures that hospitals in Ireland have are due to the fact that they have a Catholic ethos still in place.


  • #8895
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    January wrote: »
    You're forgetting that a lot of the procedures that hospitals in Ireland have are due to the fact that they have a Catholic ethos still in place.

    Well, not in that case. Lots of issues that need to be addressed regarding how hospitals treat patients, but the myth that it was doctors and nurses allowing that woman to die was due to their religion was shamelessly used for ulterior purposes. She is not even mentioned any more because it does not suit their position.


  • #8896
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Which woman are you talking about?


  • #8897
    Oldtree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,109 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    average_runner wrote: »
    Go thru the thread yourself. Not doing your work.

    So no then you can't link.


  • #8898
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,641 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Oldtree wrote: »
    So no then you can't link.

    Make an unevidenced claim and tell to hunt up the confirmation themselves.
    Yup, we've seen that before.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #8899
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Edward M wrote: »
    You don't see any difference between failed contraception and rape!?

    Well, presumably if it was allowed for rape, you'd have to prove you were raped. Which do you think would take longer: bringing a pregnancy to term or bringing a rape case to trial?

    And for people who are okay with abortion in certain extreme circumstances: are those potential lives worth less to you? Are only some potential lives worth saving?


  • #8900
    Ismisejack
    Site Banned Posts: 62 ✭✭Ismisejack


    gandalf wrote: »
    The thing is we know that the older generation will get out and vote. What is imperative to repeal the 8th is to ensure that the younger voters get out in numbers to push this over the line. All we have to do is look at our neighbours and see what the older generation have done to the youth of their country, long after these regressives are in their graves those left behind will be paying the price for their empire folly.

    I look forward to us pulling ourselves further away from our theocratic past and into a true pluralistic society. Let's ensure these minority of backward dinosaurs don't continue to dictate the direction of our society.

    Wow never came across such a snob in my relatively short life, well I’m 22 so I’ll be able vote against repeal for a long time yet! How u like that?! There’s is nothing backwards about being anti abortion it’s indeed progressive as there is much more progressive ways of dealing with crisis pregnancies than child murdering. When referendum day comes and the eighth is retained I can’t wait to see the face on snobs like you


  • #8901
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #8902
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    January wrote: »
    That's actually not the message that Coalition to Repeal the 8th Amendment, the Abortion Rights Campaign and many other large pro-choice organisations are spreading, in fact, it's the opposite.

    I've had many men over the past week or so tell me they feel they shouldn't vote because it has nothing to do with them. Which isn't true! They have an important role to play in the run up to the referendum and if they want their wife's, mother's, daughter's, cousins', aunts etc to have bodily autonomy then they will need to get out and vote on referendum day to make sure that happens.

    All over social media young women are demanding that if you have no uterus you can’t vote.
    The save the 8th campaign will be very satisfied with this.
    That and the general abusive tone (shut up, **** off, you’re an idiot etc) is very prominent.
    It’s mostly very young women but of course they’re the demographic of the social media user.


  • #8903
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Wow never came across such a snob in my relatively short life, well I’m 22 so I’ll be able vote against repeal for a long time yet! How u like that?! There’s is nothing backwards about being anti abortion it’s indeed progressive as there is much more progressive ways of dealing with crisis pregnancies than child murdering. When referendum day comes and the eighth is retained I can’t wait to see the face on snobs like you


    I wonder what Gandalf's view is on their theocratic buddy Dr. Selim proposing that Irish hospitals legally carry out the torture and mutilation of little girls?

    Left was curiously silent on that.


  • #8904
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    What are the keep lot going to do when they lose?

    Their faces should be a picture worthy of the Louvre.

    This kind of cocky smugness is great news for the save the 8th campaign.
    Keep it up Fred you’re playing a blinder!


  • #8905
    Oldtree
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,109 ✭✭✭Oldtree


    Ismisejack wrote: »
    Wow never came across such a snob in my relatively short life, well I’m 22 so I’ll be able vote against repeal for a long time yet! How u like that?! There’s is nothing backwards about being anti abortion it’s indeed progressive as there is much more progressive ways of dealing with crisis pregnancies than child murdering. When referendum day comes and the eighth is retained I can’t wait to see the face on snobs like you

    You will only be able to vote against it once in your lifetime!


  • #8906
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8907
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    splinter65 wrote: »
    This kind of cocky smugness is great news for the save the 8th campaign.
    Keep it up Fred you’re playing a blinder!
    Hilarious. A pro lifer made the exact same comment in the previous post yet you focus on that one?


  • #8908
    Damien360
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,137 ✭✭✭Damien360


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    pitifulgod wrote: »
    Thing is, that's not we're voting. We're voting to allow the government to legislate. Rather than having to handle the most minute details in the constitution which has resulted in multiple references to date.


    Majority in Leinster House has already voted for 12 weeks limit, so that will be bottom line in legislation.

    You seem to forget that reason for repeal was to do with risk to mother's life, and in particular one case that the report into it showed that it had to do with hospital procedures, nothing whatsoever to do with "Catholic ethos" or refusing the poor woman any option.

    Whole debate now is about up to what stage abortion on demand will be permitted. They could at least be honest about it. If that's what people vote for then fair enough.

    12 week limit will not cater for those who find out at 20 weeks when a first scan is done, that their child is not viable. And therefore these women will still have to travel to UK. That's just wrong.


  • #8909
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,142 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Nettle Soup wrote: »
    Yes but I imagine at least 50% of those are embarrassed they voted No. They did it because they believed idiotic spin and fear-mongering from religious organisations. The world kept turning after the vote. In fact it became a happier place.

    .

    Assuming your imagination is right, you're still left with nearly 370,000 who aren't embarrassed about voting No or getting duped by fearmongering. Besides, now that marriage equality is here, why would someone announce that they voted against it?


  • #8910
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Damien360 wrote: »
    12 week limit will not cater for those who find out at 20 weeks when a first scan is done, that their child is not viable. And therefore these women will still have to travel to UK. That's just wrong.

    That's not true. FFA will be covered after 12 weeks. It's non fatal abnormalities that will not be covered after the 12 week on request proposal.


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  • #8911
    Hammer Archer
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,549 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hammer Archer


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    I wonder what Gandalf's view is on their theocratic buddy Dr. Selim proposing that Irish hospitals legally carry out the torture and mutilation of little girls?

    Left was curiously silent on that.
    You must have had your fingers in your ears. He was widely castigated by all sides, including by other senior Muslims in Ireland. Not that it has anything whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.


This discussion has been closed.
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