Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

volchitsa · 08-03-2018 09:26PM

mariemoon wrote: »

Is it acceptable for an unborn child die because the mother wanted ?
"having a child doesn't suit my lifestyle" is definitely not a good reason for killing your own child. Someone commented this earlier

If it's really "killing your own child" then how is any reason acceptable?
Yet you just said you wouldnt ban it. Would you remove the ban on murder because it happens anyway?

end of the road · 08-03-2018 09:28PM

volchitsa wrote: »

But when we have had a teenage girl locked up in a psychiatric ward for asking for an abortion

never happened. she was sectioned for her own safety as she was suicidal.

volchitsa wrote: »

another forced to undergo a c section under threat of being sectioned

i didn't hear about this case but i will look it up. i suspect there was more to this at play then what you claim however.

volchitsa wrote: »

I dont think it's possible to defend a law like that and call oneself a supporter of human rights, never mind a feminist.

of course it's possible.

volchitsa wrote: »

I don't quite understand what you are saying : abortion is acceptable for the reasons that you think acceptable? What if the pregnant woman thinks her reason is absolutely acceptable and you dont? Why should your opinion count for her life?

because the unborn have a right to life and to live, and the poster's viewpoint as to when abortion must be availible are the necessary cases where it needs to be availible.

J C · 08-03-2018 09:48PM

Delirium wrote: »

But if abortion is the killing of an innocent child, why doesn't it not warrant the same legal view as someone travelling to molest children?

You could have a point there ... the sentence for procured abortion in Ireland at up to 14 years, is in the same league as sentences for child abuse.
This is a measure of how seriously the people of Ireland though of abortion ... and many still do.

Delirium wrote: »

How does geography remove your moral responsibility to the unborn considering you view it as a human being from conception?

Geography doesn't remove anything ... but the law does. In the case of child abuse there is no state that tolerates it ... and certainly no state that has statute law allowing it.
In Europe there is statute law that allows abortion in many countries ... and under European Law abortion is considered a legally available service in many countries. Nobody can therefore be prosecuted in Ireland for availing of services that are legally available in other EU countries. This is the legal situation ... and I don't have any issue with it TBH ... it would be quite bizzarre (and unjust) if somebody obeyed the law in another European country ... but was then prosecuted when they came to Ireland because what they did in another European happened to be illegal in Ireland.

david75 · 08-03-2018 09:48PM

Looking at the sheer numbers in attendance at the marches all over the country tonight I’m pretty sure this referendum will pass and pass comfortably.
You can’t fake these numbers (or the final tally at the ballot box), there’s a palpable drive and energy towards repeal and the numbers and support oevidenced this evening nationwide is astonishing. Especially given the predominant demographic in attendance were the youth. So great to see them involved and engaged in enacting change and determine their own and their country’s future. Wonderful to see them be involved in such huge numbers

J C · 08-03-2018 09:55PM

volchitsa wrote: »

If it's really "killing your own child" then how is any reason acceptable?

The only reason would be where it was a threat to the life of the mother.

volchitsa wrote: »

Yet you just said you wouldnt ban it. Would you remove the ban on murder because it happens anyway?

You wouldn't repeal a law, because it is being broken ... and that is why the 8th shouldn't be repealed.

end of the road · 08-03-2018 09:56PM

david75 wrote: »

Looking at the sheer numbers in attendance at the marches all over the country tonight I’m pretty sure this referendum will pass and pass comfortably.
You can’t fake these numbers (or the final tally at the ballot box), there’s a palpable drive and energy towards repeal and the numbers and support oevidenced this evening nationwide is astonishing. Especially given the predominant demographic in attendance were the youth. So great to see them involved and engaged in enacting change and determine their own and their country’s future. Wonderful to see them be involved in such huge numbers

the actual numbers may not be as much as they may look to be. i have been to many protests in my life and when you are there or see them on tv there looks to be a lot more there then there actually are.
also, some will have just gone along and won't necessarily be interested in the issue and may not be planning to vote.

J C · 08-03-2018 10:07PM

Only 15% of doctors will take part in abortions if the 8th becomes law

Quote:-
"A majority of GPs say they will not provide abortion pills to women in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy if it becomes law, according to a survey of family doctors.

Nearly seven in 10 of the 497 GPs who voted in a closed doctors' forum said they would not be involved in medical abortions.

Around 15.7pc said they would provide the service and 16.1pc were "unsure"."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html

... so the vast majority of Irish doctors, don't want to have anything to do with abortion.

... something that voters should consider when to come to vote on the 8th.

Delirium · 08-03-2018 10:16PM

J C wrote: »

You could have a point there ... the sentence for procured abortion in Ireland at up to 14 years, is in the same league as sentences for child abuse.
This is a measure of how seriously the people of Ireland though of abortion ... and many still do.

Pending the result of the referendum of course. Post-vote may paint a very different picture of what the people think.

Geography doesn't remove anything ... but the law does. In the case of child abuse there is no state that tolerates it ... and certainly no state that has statute law allowing it.

I was talking about moral responsibility. If repeal happens, I very much doubt that pro-life people will shrug off what they see as a moral responsibility to the unborn.

In Europe there is statute law that allows abortion in many countries ... and under European Law abortion is considered a legally available service in many countries. Nobody can therefore be prosecuted in Ireland for availing of services that are legally available in other EU countries. This is the legal situation ... and I don't have any issue with it TBH ... it would be quite bizzarre (and unjust) if somebody obeyed the law in another European country ... but was then prosecuted when they came to Ireland because what they did in another European happened to be illegal in Ireland.

I'm not talking about post-abortion prosecution, rather not allowing women to travel for an abortion. Irish law would stop the abortion by not allowing travel to a jurisdiction where they could have an abortion.

It would be even more bizarre if N.Ireland had abortion laws as per England. Women could just take a spin up the motorway to have an abortion without leaving the island.

You say it would be unjust to prosecute someone for having an abortion in another country, but is it not unjust that the unborn are killed?

david75 · 08-03-2018 10:19PM

end of the road wrote: »

the actual numbers may not be as much as they may look to be. i have been to many protests in my life and when you are there or see them on tv there looks to be a lot more there then there actually are.
also, some will have just gone along and won't necessarily be interested in the issue and may not be planning to vote.

I Was there. I saw how many people were there.
And no surprise to me that the rallies you attend then see the people in attendance not wanting to vote on it.

See attached pic. Front of March was down by the Gresham and this was coming behind. The garden of rememberance is way back up there and the crowds went around in front of the high lane gallery

J C · 08-03-2018 10:29PM

david75 wrote: »

Looking at the sheer numbers in attendance at the marches all over the country tonight I’m pretty sure this referendum will pass and pass comfortably.
You can’t fake these numbers (or the final tally at the ballot box), there’s a palpable drive and energy towards repeal and the numbers and support oevidenced this evening nationwide is astonishing. Especially given the predominant demographic in attendance were the youth. So great to see them involved and engaged in enacting change and determine their own and their country’s future. Wonderful to see them be involved in such huge numbers

The strident 'me and my body alone ... and to hell with the unborn child' kind of talk at some of these rallies, will convince nobody, only themselves, on abortion.

david75 · 08-03-2018 10:35PM

J C wrote: »

The strident 'me and my body alone ... and to hell with the unborn child' kind of talk at some of these rallies, will convince nobody, only themselves, on abortion.

You can probably count the amount of undecided voters at this rally or a pro life rally without even using a finger, in fairness.

Numbers only matter as a reflection and gauge of public mood and that is important, but it also subtly influences joe public who isn’t all that engaged and they see it in the news or whatever.

J C · 08-03-2018 10:36PM

Delirium wrote: »

Pending the result of the referendum of course. Post-vote may paint a very different picture of what the people think.

Maybe ... maybe not.

Delirium wrote: »

I was talking about moral responsibility. If repeal happens, I very much doubt that pro-life people will shrug off what they see as a moral responsibility to the unborn.

What has this to do with the law?

Delirium wrote: »

I'm not talking about post-abortion prosecution, rather not allowing women to travel for an abortion. Irish law would stop the abortion by not allowing travel to a jurisdiction where they could have an abortion.

It can't be done ... and shouldn't be done.

Delirium wrote: »

It would be even more bizarre if N.Ireland had abortion laws as per England. Women could just take a spin up the motorway to have an abortion without leaving the island.

You say it would be unjust to prosecute someone for having an abortion in another country, but is it not unjust that the unborn are killed?

They are both unjust.

J C · 08-03-2018 10:39PM

david75 wrote: »

You can probably count the amount of undecided voters at this rally or a pro life rally without even using a finger, in fairness.

Numbers only matter as a reflection and gauge of public mood and that is important, but it also subtly influences joe public who isn’t all that engaged and they see it in the news or whatever.

Quite true ... and the strident 'me and my body alone ... and to hell with the unborn child' kind of talk at some of these rallies, will turn off Joe public completely ... and move him to the pro-life side.

david75 · 08-03-2018 10:46PM

J C wrote: »

Quite true ... and the strident 'me and my body alone ... and to hell with the unborn child' kind of talk at some of these rallies, will turn off Joe public completely ... and move him to the pro-life side.

I didn’t hear that kind of talk tonight tbh?
I did hear some other stuff that I thought unhelpful to either side especially from the three (yes three) PLC folks shouting abuse as the march went past them on o Connell st but other than that amazing well written heartfelt oratory from each speaker and contributor.

Neither side should resort to eff tively football chants but they do anyways.
Mob rule no matter what side.

end of the road · 08-03-2018 11:26PM

J C wrote: »

Only 15% of doctors will take part in abortions if the 8th becomes law

Quote:-
"A majority of GPs say they will not provide abortion pills to women in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy if it becomes law, according to a survey of family doctors.

Nearly seven in 10 of the 497 GPs who voted in a closed doctors' forum said they would not be involved in medical abortions.

Around 15.7pc said they would provide the service and 16.1pc were "unsure"."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html

... so the vast majority of Irish doctors, don't want to have anything to do with abortion.

... something that voters should consider when to come to vote on the 8th.

this is great news. in saying that, if the worst came to the worst, gps or hospitals would be the best option rather then uk style abortion clinics blighting the areas they would be in . mind you i can't see people tolerating these things in their area anyway thankfully so such clinics probably won't want to set up here which will be great news.

Delirium wrote: »

It would be even more bizarre if N.Ireland had abortion laws as per England. Women could just take a spin up the motorway to have an abortion without leaving the island.

it's unlikely northern ireland will have abortion. it will not be tolerated or allowed.

Delirium · 08-03-2018 11:34PM

It was a hypothetical.

NuMarvel · 08-03-2018 11:44PM

J C wrote: »

Only 15% of doctors will take part in abortions if the 8th becomes law

Quote:-
"A majority of GPs say they will not provide abortion pills to women in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy if it becomes law, according to a survey of family doctors.

Nearly seven in 10 of the 497 GPs who voted in a closed doctors' forum said they would not be involved in medical abortions.

Around 15.7pc said they would provide the service and 16.1pc were "unsure"."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/twothirds-of-gps-will-refuse-to-provide-abortion-pills-36682050.html

... so the vast majority of Irish doctors, don't want to have anything to do with abortion.

... something that voters should consider when to come to vote on the 8th.

You "forgot" to include the reasons given for their position.

Dr Conor McGrane, a GP in north Dublin who was involved in the survey, said no GPs trained in Ireland or the UK received direct tuition on providing medical abortions.

He said the doctors who said they would not become involved were likely to be influenced by having no training or lack of time due to their busy practices.

"In the UK, a woman sees her GP but she is then referred for a medical abortion to an NHS clinic," he said.

Under proposals by the Government, GPs in regular practice here would be among the minority in Europe to provide the service directly, he added.

And also, most importantly, their stance on the issue of repeal:

Asked how they would vote in the upcoming referendum, 58.5pc of the 518 GPs who responded said they supported the repeal of the Eighth Amendment. Another 25.3pc said they would vote to retain it and 14.5pc were unsure.

It would seem that the GPs objections aren't on moral grounds about women being able to access abortion, but about practical issues around training and resources for providing the service. Similar issues were raised by one of the GP unions.

These are certainly important issues for consideration in the development of the service after repeal, but the key issue for voters to consider when it comes to vote on the 8th is that a clear majority of GPs polled favour repeal.

david75 · 08-03-2018 11:54PM

end of the road wrote: »

this is great news. in saying that, if the worst came to the worst, gps or hospitals would be the best option rather then uk style abortion clinics blighting the areas they would be in . mind you i can't see people tolerating these things in their area anyway thankfully so such clinics probably won't want to set up here which will be great news.

it's unlikely northern ireland will have abortion. it will not be tolerated or allowed.

You’re spreading disinformation again. You didn’t even read the article it seems.

It was a survey of only 3700 GPs.
Not ALL GPs in the state.

And 58% of the doctors in the same poll supported repealing the eighth.
(And it was an online quiz in which they could remain confidential/anonymous)

So then ask how do 58% support the referendum passing in the same survey say they won’t do their jobs and administer the pill?

Please read the articles before you post them EOTR. Seriously.

end of the road · 09-03-2018 12:11AM

david75 wrote: »

You’re spreading disinformation again. You didn’t even read the article it seems.

It was a survey of only 3700 GPs.
Not ALL GPs in the state.

And 58% of the doctors in the same poll supported repealing the eighth.
(And it was an online quiz in which they could remain confidential/anonymous)

So then ask how do 58% support the referendum passing in the same survey say they won’t do their jobs and administer the pill?

Please read the articles before you post them EOTR. Seriously.

i read the article, like i read all articles. you will have to do better next time when making false allegations.

david75 · 09-03-2018 12:58AM

end of the road wrote: »

i read the article, like i read all articles. you will have to do better next time when making false allegations.

What false allegations? Where? You either read the article and cherry picked from it or didn’t read the article at all.

Which is it? Those are questions not allegations by the way, you seem to have trouble making the distinction.

end of the road · 09-03-2018 02:51AM

david75 wrote: »

What false allegations? Where? You either read the article and cherry picked from it or didn’t read the article at all.

Which is it? Those are questions not allegations by the way, you seem to have trouble making the distinction.

i don't seem to have trouble making the distinction at all, because i have no trouble making the distinction. a false allegation is a false allegation and a question is a question.

Delirium · 09-03-2018 10:02AM

end of the road wrote: »

i read the article, like i read all articles. you will have to do better next time when making false allegations.

If you read the article, why didn't call JC on their obvious cherry-picking of the article?

For someone who recently defended the honesty of pro-life advocates, it seems contradictory to gloss over that clear case of misinformation.

....... · 09-03-2018 10:15AM

This post has been deleted.

Delirium · 09-03-2018 01:44PM

In his opening speech, Health Minister Simon Harris said Ireland needs to take a "quantum leap" forward on abortion.

Mr Harris compared the current laws to those in Saudi Arabia, and said he hopes there can be a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment in May.

He introduced the referendum bill in the Dáil earlier: "If the purpose of the 8th amendment was to stop abortions in Ireland, and to stop Irish women access abortions, it did not achieve that.

"All it achieved was pain and suffering.

"In this country, whether we like to hear it, denying reality has at times become a national bad habit - denying realities does not make them go away.

"Instead it just led to hurt and to harm".

Source

pilly · 09-03-2018 03:47PM

david75 wrote: »

I’m actually disgusted with myself.

I responded to someone that used the words ‘fake news’ with a straight face as a response in an actual discussion.

Try harder in future there EOTR. ‘Fake news’ isn’t a response worthy of reply.

That's why I have it on ignore.

Markgc · 09-03-2018 05:56PM

Bredabe wrote: »

Who decides when its "Self defense and only alternative"? how can we be sure that those decisions aren't based on selfish motives? You say that an unborn baby is "innocent" how do we know that, especially where some forms of psychiatric illness(speaking of the serial killer type conditions) are inherited?

How many Mother Teresas, Luther Kings, Mandelas, Princess Dianas, Einsteins, Tutus, Gandhis, Eva Perons, Florence Nightingales, Fawcetts, Curies, Annie Besants, Rosa Parks and other heros will be denied right to life and to make a difference?

SusieBlue · 09-03-2018 05:59PM

Markgc wrote: »

How many Mother Teresas, Luther Kings, Mandelas, Princess Dianas, Einsteins, Tutus, Gandhis, Eva Perons, Florence Nightingales, Fawcetts, Curies, Annie Besants, Rosa Parks and other heros will be denied right to life and to make a difference?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

....... · 09-03-2018 06:15PM

This post has been deleted.

end of the road · 09-03-2018 06:49PM

Delirium wrote: »

Source

the minister's statement falls down on the following.
1. the fact that ireland's laws are nothing like saudi arabia as saudi arabia doesn't believe in equality for women, whereas ireland believes in full equality for women.
2. the 8th likely has prevented abortions due to the expence of traveling to procure one in the uk, so his interpretation of the non-achievement of the 8th and subsiquent statement is the same as saying none of the laws in ireland have stopped the acts they were brought in to stop, which is true, as some people will go against the rules. however, we won't be abolishing the rest of the laws because they don't 100% work.

Delirium · 09-03-2018 07:08PM

Please explain in what way Irish abortion laws give women more equality to those of Saudi Arabia.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Comments