Is conservatism the new counter-culture?

Wanderer78 · 10-03-2018 12:04PM

professore wrote: »

True in the US but Europe is extreme left both politically and socially.

absolutely disagree there, as others have said, 'our' reaction to the 2008 crash has shown the true colours of European institutions including our political institutions. i dont see us all living in a utopian socialist union! i would class these reactions to the crash as being rather right winged.

One eyed Jack · 10-03-2018 12:15PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Conservatism is simply a resistance to change. Like the people who locked scientists up for saying the earth was round, who burnt witches at the stake or who fought for slavery. They're scared of change because they don't understand it and don't know what it will bring so they attack it.

Conservatism isn't a resistance to change at all. I'd consider myself conservative, and I've never been resistant to, or scared of change. I've just never seen the point of "I'm bored, I need a change", just for changes sake, with fundamentally flawed arguments at best used to justify said change, which as you rightly point out - arguments that often fail forward planning stages, and when carried out, if they are carried out, often fail miserably in reality.

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 12:18PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Conservatism isn't a resistance to change at all. I'd consider myself conservative, and I've never been resistant to, or scared of change. I've just never seen the point of "I'm bored, I need a change", just for changes sake, with fundamentally flawed arguments at best used to justify said change, which as you rightly point out - arguments that often fail forward planning stages, and when carried out, if they are carried out, often fail miserably in reality.

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

Pepefrogok · 10-03-2018 12:19PM

lawred2 wrote: »

What were you expecting from the 'left' in response to that episode of outrageous criminality? Is the left supposed to be pro crime or something?

Who or what is the left in your head?

The left have form in ignoring serious crime if they believe it will make people rethink their mass immigration policy, Rotherham for example.

_Dara_ · 10-03-2018 12:20PM

professore wrote: »

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

Being liberal or conservative doesn’t mean you don’t think for yourself. It just means your values fall that way.

Bob_Marley · 10-03-2018 12:21PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Conservatism is simply a resistance to change. Like the people who locked scientists up for saying the earth was round, who burnt witches at the stake or who fought for slavery. They're scared of change because they don't understand it and don't know what it will bring so they attack it.

So a liberalism does not resist or attack any change towards a conservative proposal ?

splinter65 · 10-03-2018 12:22PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

If something’s not broken then why fix it?

Wanderer78 · 10-03-2018 12:24PM

Pepefrogok wrote: »

The left have form in ignoring serious crime if they believe it will make people rethink their mass immigration policy, Rotherham for example.

i spend a lot of my time thinking about crime, its possible causes and possible ways to deal with it. i have also spent time talking to people that deal with crime in their daily lives, including gardai and people that have worked within the criminal justice system, ive even spent some time talking to criminals, some of which have done some time in prison, i.e. id disagree with your statement, strongly in some cases.

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 12:30PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So you would not resist or fear any change towards a conservative proposal ?

Depends on the proposal. But you seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about legislative change, I'm talking about cultural and societal change. Conservatives resist them both.

splinter65 wrote: »

If something’s not broken then why fix it?

Who says something is not broken though? Generally the people who benefit from it at the expense of others.

Bob_Marley · 10-03-2018 12:44PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Depends on the proposal. But you seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about legislative change, I'm talking about cultural and societal change. Conservatives resist them both.

So does Liberalism if it's a change it does not agree with, so the claim that only Conservatism resists a change it does not agree with is logically false.

One eyed Jack · 10-03-2018 12:51PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

Huh?

You're still sticking with your definition even though I've pointed out that how you're defining Conservatism is incorrect? Why are you so resistant to changing your opinion when it's been shown to be nothing more than an ill-informed soundbite?

facehugger99 · 10-03-2018 12:59PM

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception,

They're liberal values, not far-left ideas.

Perfectly possible to be extremely liberal and to the right of the polictical spectrum.

It suits the the far-left to drape themselves in the values of social liberalism but they have very little to to do with them.

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 01:28PM

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So does Liberalism if it's a change it does not agree with, so the claim that only Conservatism resists a change it does not agree with is logically false.

I'm not defending liberalism. I'm saying conservatives resist cultural and societal changes.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Huh?

You're still sticking with your definition even though I've pointed out that how you're defining Conservatism is incorrect? Why are you so resistant to changing your opinion when it's been shown to be nothing more than an ill-informed soundbite?

You told me I was wrong then proved me right.

suicide_circus · 10-03-2018 01:36PM

The ideals of the 60's counter cultural revolution are now establishment policy. Therefore the only way to be counter culture, "left field" and provocative nowadays is to go the other direction. Seems self explanatory to me.

darkdubh · 10-03-2018 01:41PM

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception, veganism and the socialist utopia. These days being pro-immigration, pro-gay rights and anti-religion is the epitome of the establishment. These are the safe, mainstream ideas that are celebrated daily in our media. Our Taoiseach is an openly homosexual son of an Indian immigrant.

These days the rebels are the lads who go to mass every Sunday and take pride in their country’s past and traditions. They want to keep Ireland for the Irish and many even make the effort to include a cúpla focail in their daily conversations. Instead of indulging in hedonistic binge drinking and casual sex antics at the weekend, they stay in and study the writings of Pearse. Witholding sex until after marriage is the radical thing to do these days.

You can take pride in your country's past and traditions without going feeling the need to go to mass. I stopped going to mass thirty years ago bar weddings and funerals, I'm not going to have an about turn because some people think it's the new punk rock.

quintana76 · 10-03-2018 01:42PM

professore wrote: »

Ireland takes in basically no refugees. 760 in 2017 : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/total-of-760-refugees-arrived-in-state-last-year-1.2928240

As for asylum seekers:
Applicants in 2016 : 2,245
Pending applications in 2016: 4,055

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/republic-ireland/statistics

So we are far from an immigrant crisis like Germany or Sweden. Should we keep it that way? In my opinion, absolutely.

I agree putting 100 of them in Lisdoonvarna is an incredibly stupid idea.

They should settle them next door to the dwellings of all RTE employees. Watch the tune change very quickly.

wes · 10-03-2018 01:48PM

Conservatism is pretty much dead, and replaced by loud morons blaming everything on the left or whatever group they hate, and drowning out any serious conservative thinkers. Its a pretty sad state of affairs. I don't think you could call this current state a "counter" culture, as its mostly just a bunch of angry people blaming there own personal failures on someone else.

Most people who call themselves "conservatives" these days are nothing of the sort. Just angry people screaming about whatever they just so happen to hate. There is no ideology, no vision, just anger and hatred.

Tomk1 · 10-03-2018 01:54PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm proudly a lefty, the looting of Lidl was disgraceful but it could be a sign of growing complex social issues within our society

I dont get this, what "complex social issues"
I lived in Limerick decades ago, there where "complex social issues" areas there back then. Its just simple thiefs and bad people doing what they do, take advantage of any situation, like posting on FB I'm on holiday for a week no one at home, then house gets broke in. No "complex social issues" just normal stuff.

Around christmas a drunk guy in Siberia drove a tank (armoured vehicle) into a shop window, stole a bottle of vodka, found drunk. A local said dont know why all the interest in this, the guy just drove a tank into a shop window. no "complex social issues"

I dont mean anything, it sounds abit like lefty nonsence jargon that sounds great but means nothing, like this "being a poignant matter"

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 02:00PM

Tomk1 wrote: »

I dont get this, what "complex social issues"

That's why they are called "complex". Mental health, addiction, poverty, child neglect. All these things contribute to crime rates. Of course there will always be people who are just wrong in the head but addressing the root issues of everyone else can massively reduce crime.

Atoms for Peace · 10-03-2018 02:04PM

professore wrote: »

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-Aristotle

Tomk1 · 10-03-2018 02:07PM

I was listening to Saturday Sit-In with George Hook (the freedom-of-the-press guy that was suspended due to SJW outrage, complete outrage, I tell u, outrage)
The topic of conservatism, right and left views was being dicussed in reference to Italy and also Britexit, if you get the chance to hear the podcast do. I couldn't even try to explain it as I want to hear it again.

http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Saturday_SitIn/Best_of_Saturday_SitIn/217458/The_implications_of_the_Italian_Election

crazy_larry · 10-03-2018 02:08PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's why they are called "complex". Mental health, addiction, poverty, child neglect. All these things contribute to crime rates. Of course there will always be people who are just wrong in the head but addressing the root issues of everyone else can massively reduce crime.

there is no need to over complicate what is obvious , people who loot like in lidl last week do so because they are immoral , unconscionable people who were badly reared by ( most likely ) immoral unconscionable people , we are not dealing with people dodging russian bombs in allepo here

aoidain o riordain was on tv the other night referring to so called middle ireland and its reaction to the lidl looting , middle class socialists like him have always despised the silent majority , lefties have always viewed thugs as exotic , doesnt matter if its stalin , castro or those guys lugging larger in tallaght last weekend

the hated middle class are too be milked so lefty intellectual posers can study these exotic species who do nothing but sponge of the state

the problem with lefties is they have no common sense and actually hate traditional cop on

crazy_larry · 10-03-2018 02:11PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

That's why they are called "complex". Mental health, addiction, poverty, child neglect. All these things contribute to crime rates. Of course there will always be people who are just wrong in the head but addressing the root issues of everyone else can massively reduce crime.

crime is worse today than ever , the left indulge and patronise people in crime ridden areas

the trouble with lefties is they think they are smarter than everyone else where as the truth is lefties are incredibly stupid

One eyed Jack · 10-03-2018 02:32PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I'm not defending liberalism. I'm saying conservatives resist cultural and societal changes.

You told me I was wrong then proved me right.

Even your definition of conservatives above is incorrect. Conservatives do not resist cultural and social changes. I already explained that I see no value in changing something for what I see as just for the sake of changing it, with often very poor and short-sighted arguments put forward to promote the idea that change for the sake of it is a good thing for everyone is society. Ideas for these changes which are often put forward by people who bore easily, have limited attention spans, and lack the drive to realise their lofty ambitions, and that's why I'm absolutely not scared of the often half-baked intended to be socially progressive nonsense that radiates from the 'easily distracted by the next half baked idea trending on social media' types.

suicide_circus · 10-03-2018 02:36PM

I think conservatives resist throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because a practice or concept is old or traditional dosnt mean it is wrong and needs to be done away with.

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 02:59PM

crazy_larry wrote: »

there is no need to over complicate what is obvious , people who loot like in lidl last week do so because they are immoral , unconscionable people who were badly reared by ( most likely ) immoral unconscionable people ,

So, child neglect.

crazy_larry wrote: »

crime is worse today than ever ,

Have you any statistics to back that up?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Even your definition of conservatives above is incorrect. Conservatives do not resist cultural and social changes.

Except they do. Do you need examples?

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think conservatives resist throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Just because a practice or concept is old or traditional dosnt mean it is wrong and needs to be done away with.

Which practice or concept would you be talking about? Women voting? Gay rights?

Your Face · 10-03-2018 03:07PM

I think the real rebels today are the ones who live their lives the way they want.

One eyed Jack · 10-03-2018 03:13PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Except they do. Do you need examples?

Examples of your incorrect definition of Conservatism?

No, I'm fine thanks.

suicide_circus · 10-03-2018 03:32PM

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Which practice or concept would you be talking about? Women voting? Gay rights?

You seem like a reasonable guy whose prepared to listen to the opinions of others

Captain Obvious · 10-03-2018 03:52PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Examples of your incorrect definition of Conservatism?

No, I'm fine thanks.

No, examples of conservatives resisting cultural and social changes, the thing you say they don't do.

suicide_circus wrote: »

You seem like a reasonable guy whose prepared to listen to the opinions of others

Thanks.

Is conservatism the new counter-culture?

Comments