Is conservatism the new counter-culture?

ameirecan

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception, veganism and the socialist utopia. These days being pro-immigration, pro-gay rights and anti-religion is the epitome of the establishment. These are the safe, mainstream ideas that are celebrated daily in our media. Our Taoiseach is an openly homosexual son of an Indian immigrant.

These days the rebels are the lads who go to mass every Sunday and take pride in their country’s past and traditions. They want to keep Ireland for the Irish and many even make the effort to include a cúpla focail in their daily conversations. Instead of indulging in hedonistic binge drinking and casual sex antics at the weekend, they stay in and study the writings of Pearse. Witholding sex until after marriage is the radical thing to do these days.

irishguitarlad

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception, veganism and the socialist utopia. These days being pro-immigration, pro-gay rights and anti-religion is the epitome of the establishment. These are the safe, mainstream ideas that are celebrated daily in our media. Our Taoiseach is an openly homosexual son of an Indian immigrant.

These days the rebels are the lads who go to mass every Sunday and take pride in their country’s past and traditions. They want to keep Ireland for the Irish and many even make the effort to include a cúpla focail in their daily conversations. Instead of indulging in hedonistic binge drinking and casual sex antics at the weekend, they stay in and study the writings of Pearse. Witholding sex until after marriage is the radical thing to do these days.

Doing drugs at this hour of the morning.

Pepefrogok

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception, veganism and the socialist utopia. These days being pro-immigration, pro-gay rights and anti-religion is the epitome of the establishment. These are the safe, mainstream ideas that are celebrated daily in our media. Our Taoiseach is an openly homosexual son of an Indian immigrant.

These days the rebels are the lads who go to mass every Sunday and take pride in their country’s past and traditions. They want to keep Ireland for the Irish and many even make the effort to include a cúpla focail in their daily conversations. Instead of indulging in hedonistic binge drinking and casual sex antics at the weekend, they stay in and study the writings of Pearse. Witholding sex until after marriage is the radical thing to do these days.

There my be a part of that to it but I believe a lot of the youth are coming round to more conservative/right wing views because they are now actually seeing what side of the argument has been constantly correct and what side offers them a better future.

Wanderer78

Pepefrogok wrote:

There my be a part of that to it but I believe a lot of the youth are coming round to more conservative/right wing views because they are now actually seeing what side of the argument has been constantly correct and what side offers them a better future.

And what would this better future be?

One eyed Jack

"Conservativism the new counter-culture" doesn't make much sense tbh.

No, would be my answer to the question I think you're asking. Conservatives are as they always were - conservative. Nowadays there appears to be somewhat of a schism between people who traditionally considered themselves liberal, and the newer type of liberal who considers themselves progressive, whereas traditional liberals appear to decry their ideas as regressive.

professore

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

ameirecan

Pearse was ahead of his time. "An Ireland not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well." I wonder what he'd make of modern multicultural Ireland that sends boats out to the Mediterranean to ferry illegals to Europe....that imposes over 100 asylum seekers on a small village like Lisdoonvarna. Our leaders have betrayed the ideals fought for by our patriot dead.

The other major powers in the world, China and Russia, don't appease this sick liberal ideology. Hence they are growing stronger while the West rots from the inside. Just some observations on the world. Please don't silence me.

The Backwards Man

Someone has Google translated the buck in Health Sciences, I see

Wanderer78

ameirecan wrote:

Pearse was ahead of his time. "An Ireland not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well." I wonder what he'd make of modern multicultural Ireland that sends boats out to the Mediterranean to ferry illegals to Europe....that imposes over 100 asylum seekers on a small village like Lisdoonvarna. Our leaders have betrayed the ideals fought for by our patriot dead.

There's no such thing as freedom on this planet, each person and society is confined by certain parameters, some of these parameters are controlled by individuals, groups, institutions etc etc.

splinter65

Wanderer78 wrote: »

And what would this better future be?

At one stage we were on a dangerous toad to socialism but we’re off it now.
We still are too bogged down in left wing rubbish but as the other poster said, Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap and I’m confident we will get back.
I was heartened by the reaction to the looting at Lidl incident.

One eyed Jack

ameirecan wrote: »

Pearse was ahead of his time. "An Ireland not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well." I wonder what he'd make of modern multicultural Ireland that sends boats out to the Mediterranean to ferry illegals to Europe....that imposes over 100 asylum seekers on a small village like Lisdoonvarna. Our leaders have betrayed the ideals fought for by our patriot dead.

The other major powers in the world, China and Russia, don't appease this sick liberal ideology. Hence they are growing stronger while the West rots from the inside. Just some observations on the world. Please don't silence me.

Well that escalated quickly! :pac:

I'm with prof on this one, Pearse never did much for me either, but at least he wasn't as miserable as Kavanagh. Now there was a disillusioned and bitter man, way ahead of his time...

Or is it more the case that bitter and disillusioned people have always existed in society since the dawn of civilisation?

Hmm...

Wanderer78

phoney_curtis wrote:

the mods slap bans exclusively on those with conservative views

I've very few if any conservative views, and I've been close to being banned from boards!

professore

ameirecan wrote: »

Pearse was ahead of his time. "An Ireland not free merely, but Gaelic as well; not Gaelic merely, but free as well." I wonder what he'd make of modern multicultural Ireland that sends boats out to the Mediterranean to ferry illegals to Europe....that imposes over 100 asylum seekers on a small village like Lisdoonvarna. Our leaders have betrayed the ideals fought for by our patriot dead.

The other major powers in the world, China and Russia, don't appease this sick liberal ideology. Hence they are growing stronger while the West rots from the inside. Just some observations on the world. Please don't silence me.

Ireland takes in basically no refugees. 760 in 2017 : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/total-of-760-refugees-arrived-in-state-last-year-1.2928240

As for asylum seekers:
Applicants in 2016 : 2,245
Pending applications in 2016: 4,055

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/republic-ireland/statistics

So we are far from an immigrant crisis like Germany or Sweden. Should we keep it that way? In my opinion, absolutely.

I agree putting 100 of them in Lisdoonvarna is an incredibly stupid idea.

splinter65

professore wrote: »

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

Be Shapiro fears no one. Hours of entertainment from him on YouTube debating liberals who can’t even stay the course for 5 minutes.

Wanderer78

splinter65 wrote:

At one stage we were on a dangerous toad to socialism but we’re off it now. We still are too bogged down in left wing rubbish but as the other poster said, Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap and I’m confident we will get back. I was heartened by the reaction to the looting at Lidl incident.

I'm proudly a lefty, the looting of Lidl was disgraceful but it could be a sign of growing complex social issues within our society

Bob_Marley

It's not as binary as conservative - liberal

Economically the west is being pushed by it's leaders further and further to the extreme right.
Socially it's being pushed further and further towards the extreme left.

Christianity is a very substantial threat as it is economically to the left, and socially to the right, and has been successfully sidelined to only true believers/rebels.

Islam is not seen as a credible threat, as it is too extreme and easily dismissed. (in the mind of European politicians)

Europe's moguls need labour to become as cheap as possible, house ownership to become as difficult as possible, and to have society as divided as possible so everyone can be more easily controlled. Even those of different gender need to be pitched against one another over toilets. Everything must be politicised.

professore

splinter65 wrote: »

At one stage we were on a dangerous toad to socialism but we’re off it now.
We still are too bogged down in left wing rubbish but as the other poster said, Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap and I’m confident we will get back.
I was heartened by the reaction to the looting at Lidl incident.

The Irish have a lot of cop on. When a highly educated German, in the middle of an otherwise very interesting discussion, out of the blue apologised to me for the war and Hitler in a bar in Barcelona one night, I saw right there that one size most definitely does not fit all for Europe. We are seeing the same crap in America with "cis white men" apoligising for the sins of their forefathers. I thought we threw original sin out with the stranglehold of the Catholic church. What nonsense.

professore

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It's not as binary as conservative - liberal

Economically the west is being pushed by it's leaders further and further to the extreme right.
Socially it's being pushed further and further towards the extreme left.

True in the US but Europe is extreme left both politically and socially.

lawred2

Pepefrogok wrote: »

There my be a part of that to it but I believe a lot of the youth are coming round to more conservative/right wing views because they are now actually seeing what side of the argument has been constantly correct and what side offers them a better future.

:rolleyes:

lawred2

splinter65 wrote: »

At one stage we were on a dangerous toad to socialism but we’re off it now.
We still are too bogged down in left wing rubbish but as the other poster said, Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap and I’m confident we will get back.
I was heartened by the reaction to the looting at Lidl incident.

fecken socialist toads

professore

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Islam is not seen as a credible threat, as it is too extreme and easily dismissed. (in the mind of European politicians)

Exactly what they said about the Nazis ... even after they were democratically elected and by far and away the largest party in the Reichstag. After they annexed Austria and the Sudetenland. Even after they invaded Poland. Islam, or at least the way it is practiced, is a threat to Western civilization.

splinter65

lawred2 wrote: »

fecken socialist toads

You’ve replied to 2 seperate posts using 3 words and an emoji and no opinion of your own.
I don’t think you can mock anyone else’s spelling.

Bob_Marley

professore wrote: »

True in the US but Europe is extreme left both politically and socially.

You must be joking, the massive bank and bondholder bailouts prove otherwise, saddling the debts onto ordinary taxpayers instead for generations.
Unless you think the current policy of nationalising any and all billionaires private speculation depts, and next to zero taxation on their profits is left wing.

Bob_Marley

splinter65 wrote: »

Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap

Rubbish, Irish people swallow whatever the Irish media tell them to.

splinter65

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Rubbish, Irish people swallow whatever the Irish media tell them to.

We’ll see...

Bob_Marley

splinter65 wrote: »

We’ll see...

We see it all the time

Captain Obvious

Conservatism is simply a resistance to change. Like the people who locked scientists up for saying the earth was round, who burnt witches at the stake or who fought for slavery. They're scared of change because they don't understand it and don't know what it will bring so they attack it.

lawred2

splinter65 wrote: »

You’ve replied to 2 seperate posts using 3 words and an emoji and no opinion of your own.
I don’t think you can mock anyone else’s spelling.

The first one was some lad presenting his musings as fact and some belief that the 'side' that he happens to agree with has been constantly correct. On what this 'side' has been constantly correct on is entirely unclear. It's also entirely unclear what a better future means in this entirely context free one liner.

Not sure what level of detail you expect in response.

Maybe you can fill in the gaps.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I was a real lib socialist type in my college years. Age, experience and my father turned me. Lol

I'd still consider myself an old school classical liberal, somewhat like Dave Rubin or Douglas Muarry.


I despise regressive leftism and the pseudo science and intelectulism that goes with it.


I watch talks online from the likes of Ben Shapiro and Milo and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what they say.


They're both indepently wealthy and can speak out without being abused shamed or hounded from their jobs. A voice for the silent afraid majority maybe.

lawred2

splinter65 wrote: »

At one stage we were on a dangerous toad to socialism but we’re off it now.
We still are too bogged down in left wing rubbish but as the other poster said, Irish people are too smart to swallow all that crap and I’m confident we will get back.
I was heartened by the reaction to the looting at Lidl incident.

What were you expecting from the 'left' in response to that episode of outrageous criminality? Is the left supposed to be pro crime or something?

Who or what is the left in your head?

DanMurphy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

There's no such thing as freedom on this planet, each person and society is confined by certain parameters, some of these parameters are controlled by individuals, groups, institutions etc etc.

I worked in a Prison for eight years.
One evening at the end of my shift a prisoner said, ' Well for you Dan, off to the outside world.'

I said, 'Buddy, all of us are in a Prison of sorts, just some of our cells are a bit bigger than yours.'

Wanderer78

professore wrote: »

True in the US but Europe is extreme left both politically and socially.

absolutely disagree there, as others have said, 'our' reaction to the 2008 crash has shown the true colours of European institutions including our political institutions. i dont see us all living in a utopian socialist union! i would class these reactions to the crash as being rather right winged.

One eyed Jack

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Conservatism is simply a resistance to change. Like the people who locked scientists up for saying the earth was round, who burnt witches at the stake or who fought for slavery. They're scared of change because they don't understand it and don't know what it will bring so they attack it.

Conservatism isn't a resistance to change at all. I'd consider myself conservative, and I've never been resistant to, or scared of change. I've just never seen the point of "I'm bored, I need a change", just for changes sake, with fundamentally flawed arguments at best used to justify said change, which as you rightly point out - arguments that often fail forward planning stages, and when carried out, if they are carried out, often fail miserably in reality.

Captain Obvious

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Conservatism isn't a resistance to change at all. I'd consider myself conservative, and I've never been resistant to, or scared of change. I've just never seen the point of "I'm bored, I need a change", just for changes sake, with fundamentally flawed arguments at best used to justify said change, which as you rightly point out - arguments that often fail forward planning stages, and when carried out, if they are carried out, often fail miserably in reality.

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

Pepefrogok

lawred2 wrote: »

What were you expecting from the 'left' in response to that episode of outrageous criminality? Is the left supposed to be pro crime or something?

Who or what is the left in your head?

The left have form in ignoring serious crime if they believe it will make people rethink their mass immigration policy, Rotherham for example.

_Dara_

professore wrote: »

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

Being liberal or conservative doesn’t mean you don’t think for yourself. It just means your values fall that way.

Bob_Marley

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Conservatism is simply a resistance to change. Like the people who locked scientists up for saying the earth was round, who burnt witches at the stake or who fought for slavery. They're scared of change because they don't understand it and don't know what it will bring so they attack it.

So a liberalism does not resist or attack any change towards a conservative proposal ?

splinter65

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

If something’s not broken then why fix it?

Wanderer78

Pepefrogok wrote: »

The left have form in ignoring serious crime if they believe it will make people rethink their mass immigration policy, Rotherham for example.

i spend a lot of my time thinking about crime, its possible causes and possible ways to deal with it. i have also spent time talking to people that deal with crime in their daily lives, including gardai and people that have worked within the criminal justice system, ive even spent some time talking to criminals, some of which have done some time in prison, i.e. id disagree with your statement, strongly in some cases.

Captain Obvious

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So you would not resist or fear any change towards a conservative proposal ?

Depends on the proposal. But you seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about legislative change, I'm talking about cultural and societal change. Conservatives resist them both.

splinter65 wrote: »

If something’s not broken then why fix it?

Who says something is not broken though? Generally the people who benefit from it at the expense of others.

Bob_Marley

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Depends on the proposal. But you seem to have misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about legislative change, I'm talking about cultural and societal change. Conservatives resist them both.

So does Liberalism if it's a change it does not agree with, so the claim that only Conservatism resists a change it does not agree with is logically false.

One eyed Jack

Captain Obvious wrote: »

You say you have never been resistant to or scared of change then explain why you resist and fear change.

Huh?

You're still sticking with your definition even though I've pointed out that how you're defining Conservatism is incorrect? Why are you so resistant to changing your opinion when it's been shown to be nothing more than an ill-informed soundbite?

facehugger99

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception,

They're liberal values, not far-left ideas.

Perfectly possible to be extremely liberal and to the right of the polictical spectrum.

It suits the the far-left to drape themselves in the values of social liberalism but they have very little to to do with them.

Captain Obvious

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So does Liberalism if it's a change it does not agree with, so the claim that only Conservatism resists a change it does not agree with is logically false.

I'm not defending liberalism. I'm saying conservatives resist cultural and societal changes.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Huh?

You're still sticking with your definition even though I've pointed out that how you're defining Conservatism is incorrect? Why are you so resistant to changing your opinion when it's been shown to be nothing more than an ill-informed soundbite?

You told me I was wrong then proved me right.

suicide_circus

The ideals of the 60's counter cultural revolution are now establishment policy. Therefore the only way to be counter culture, "left field" and provocative nowadays is to go the other direction. Seems self explanatory to me.

darkdubh

ameirecan wrote: »

Many years ago, rebellious students campaigned and fought for far-left ideas like gay rights, legalization of contraception, veganism and the socialist utopia. These days being pro-immigration, pro-gay rights and anti-religion is the epitome of the establishment. These are the safe, mainstream ideas that are celebrated daily in our media. Our Taoiseach is an openly homosexual son of an Indian immigrant.

These days the rebels are the lads who go to mass every Sunday and take pride in their country’s past and traditions. They want to keep Ireland for the Irish and many even make the effort to include a cúpla focail in their daily conversations. Instead of indulging in hedonistic binge drinking and casual sex antics at the weekend, they stay in and study the writings of Pearse. Witholding sex until after marriage is the radical thing to do these days.

You can take pride in your country's past and traditions without going feeling the need to go to mass. I stopped going to mass thirty years ago bar weddings and funerals, I'm not going to have an about turn because some people think it's the new punk rock.

quintana76

professore wrote: »

Ireland takes in basically no refugees. 760 in 2017 : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/total-of-760-refugees-arrived-in-state-last-year-1.2928240

As for asylum seekers:
Applicants in 2016 : 2,245
Pending applications in 2016: 4,055

http://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/republic-ireland/statistics

So we are far from an immigrant crisis like Germany or Sweden. Should we keep it that way? In my opinion, absolutely.

I agree putting 100 of them in Lisdoonvarna is an incredibly stupid idea.

They should settle them next door to the dwellings of all RTE employees. Watch the tune change very quickly.

wes

Conservatism is pretty much dead, and replaced by loud morons blaming everything on the left or whatever group they hate, and drowning out any serious conservative thinkers. Its a pretty sad state of affairs. I don't think you could call this current state a "counter" culture, as its mostly just a bunch of angry people blaming there own personal failures on someone else.

Most people who call themselves "conservatives" these days are nothing of the sort. Just angry people screaming about whatever they just so happen to hate. There is no ideology, no vision, just anger and hatred.

Tomk1

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm proudly a lefty, the looting of Lidl was disgraceful but it could be a sign of growing complex social issues within our society

I dont get this, what "complex social issues"
I lived in Limerick decades ago, there where "complex social issues" areas there back then. Its just simple thiefs and bad people doing what they do, take advantage of any situation, like posting on FB I'm on holiday for a week no one at home, then house gets broke in. No "complex social issues" just normal stuff.

Around christmas a drunk guy in Siberia drove a tank (armoured vehicle) into a shop window, stole a bottle of vodka, found drunk. A local said dont know why all the interest in this, the guy just drove a tank into a shop window. no "complex social issues"

I dont mean anything, it sounds abit like lefty nonsence jargon that sounds great but means nothing, like this "being a poignant matter"

Captain Obvious

Tomk1 wrote: »

I dont get this, what "complex social issues"

That's why they are called "complex". Mental health, addiction, poverty, child neglect. All these things contribute to crime rates. Of course there will always be people who are just wrong in the head but addressing the root issues of everyone else can massively reduce crime.

Atoms for Peace

professore wrote: »

Yes. For sure. I've seen this transition. I was in college where some of my friends protested installing condom machines in the toilets - I kid you not.

When my daughter said she thinks that immigration should be limited and controlled, one of her "friends" screamed "you are a murderer" at her repeatedly. And my daughter isn't conservative or liberal, she thinks for herself.

She says they just parrot these ideas as black and white facts and they are not open to discussion. To me this is the biggest problem. In the West this was traditionally a more conservative stance - you believe it "because I said so".

If someone stands up in front of admiring followers and tells you what they believe and won't allow any questions then I'm out. If your ideas are so great you should be able to stand up and robustly defend it. If you don't want to "engage" then what you have is an ideology or a religion - not a reasoned opinion. For example Katie Hopkins in the UK, Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous in the US debate from one end of the day until the other. Liberals on the other hand, come on chat shows, are asked sympathetic questions, and parrot the party line to canned applause. No criticism or questioning is permitted.

And Pearse ... I wouldn't be mad about him personally.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-Aristotle