Has rugby become the "people's game"?

Billgirlylegs · 08-03-2018 05:57PM

I don't like rugby, and think it's much ado about nothing much.

In my opinion, it appears to be popular at the moment because -
1. Irish teams appear to be successful- how successful is open to debate given the limited interest elsewhere
2. Sports media are utterly obsessed by the thing. Sunday papers devote 4+ pages to it regardless whether anything is taking place or not.

I Stopped listening to RTE radio sports years ago because all they seemed to broadcast was live rugby.
Newstalk had no such content then- but that has changed drastically and now they drone on about it endlessly, obsessing over who stood where and why this lad ran two steps too far.
I think that when the "successes" dwindle, we will find out how popular the game is.

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 06:05PM

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

I don't like rugby, and think it's much ado about nothing much.

In my opinion, it appears to be popular at the moment because -
1. Irish teams appear to be successful- how successful is open to debate given the limited interest elsewhere
2. Sports media are utterly obsessed by the thing. Sunday papers devote 4+ pages to it regardless whether anything is taking place or not.

I Stopped listening to RTE radio sports years ago because all they seemed to broadcast was live rugby.
Newstalk had no such content then- but that has changed drastically and now they drone on about it endlessly, obsessing over who stood where and why this lad ran two steps too far.
I think that when the "successes" dwindle, we will find out how popular the game is.

And yet here you are on a rugby forum talking about it. It's got to you hasn't it?

Yeah_Right · 08-03-2018 06:21PM

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

I don't like rugby, and think it's much ado about nothing much.

In my opinion, it appears to be popular at the moment because -
1. Irish teams appear to be successful- how successful is open to debate given the limited interest elsewhere
2. Sports media are utterly obsessed by the thing. Sunday papers devote 4+ pages to it regardless whether anything is taking place or not.

I Stopped listening to RTE radio sports years ago because all they seemed to broadcast was live rugby.
Newstalk had no such content then- but that has changed drastically and now they drone on about it endlessly, obsessing over who stood where and why this lad ran two steps too far.
I think that when the "successes" dwindle, we will find out how popular the game is.

Are there other sports they could cover? Yes but those sports are nothing compared to rugby so why would they bother?!? Rugby is the game played in heaven. It is the greatest sport ever and I for one, am glad the Irish media and general public have finally come to this realisation and are putting rugby and rugby players/coaches on the pedestal it/they deserve.

Now all thats needed is for RTE to convert one of their channels to a full time rugby channel and for schools to make participation in rugby compulsory. The kids can play other sports as well. We don't want to be mean about it.

Neil3030 · 08-03-2018 06:25PM

If you want to talk about relatability to the professional players, GAA and rugby have a stronger claim to the title of the "people's game" than soccer. Who here can relate to someone who left school around 15 or 16, and was a millionaire by 18? Yes, the vast majority of rugby players come from private schools, but aside from the ones who make a career in media, they nonetheless end up like many people from public schools, i.e., with a college degree working in some professional industry. It's not like Ireland is America.

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 06:25PM

I don't like oysters. Is there an oyster forum somewhere I can share that with?

Neil3030 · 08-03-2018 06:26PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't like oysters. Is there an oyster forum somewhere I can share that with?

Erm... probably the rugby forum, tbh :pac:

sydthebeat · 08-03-2018 06:31PM

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

In my opinion, it appears to be popular at the moment because -
1. Irish teams appear to be successful- how successful is open to debate given the limited interest elsewhere
2. Sports media are utterly obsessed by the thing. Sunday papers devote 4+ pages to it regardless whether anything is taking place or not.

.

the two of these are intrinsically linked.
success breads success, and success breeds support.
which is exactly what happened to irish soccer between 88 and 94.
before then irish soccer was viewed as slightly more accessible to rugby, due to the irish players playing in english clubs.... but both sports would have had the same broadcasting frequency on irish tv.

Rugby gets its coverage because we have successful teams at club level who are among the best in Europe. we have a provincal system thats the envy of similar countries to ours, but most importantly we are an 'all island of ireland' national team. Only the GAA can point to a similar structure.

thebaz · 08-03-2018 08:03PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Look at the numbers making it in pro rugby in Ireland. Look at the schools they went to. Most in Ireland in many areas of the country went to fee paying schools. Likes of Neymar in soccer and countless others world wide they can come from nothing. Far less likely in rugby though that is changing more and more.

ok , I can see where you are coming from - and I've seen it at both levels - from privilleged schools rugby and yet I also have a wide interest in boxing , made a documentary on a boxer who came from one of the most disadvantaged areas to getting a world title - the sheer drive to succeed (that all sportsman must or should have ) - rugby I dont believe is as elitist as it may once have been (thankfully

wicklowwonder · 08-03-2018 08:13PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

TV3 coverage is ****e is the general point I guess. Even the RTE numbers would not have been completely representative - I always watched on BBC and I am sure plenty others did too. It actually makes comparing viewing numbers with GAA difficult and in their favour. All things being equal if GAA and rugby had equal viewing figures I'm fairly convinced more people in Ireland actually watched the rugby.

The fall off in viewing numbers is representative of the product on display (in terms of coverage) moreso than anything else I would guess.

200 or 300,000 people watching on BBC/ITV - very, very unlikely. You would want to be an avid fan to move to BBC. Passing sports fans wouldn’t go to the trouble, same as the TV3 figures are less than RTE last year. People are not in the habit of consuming sport on that channel. Same as BBC and it is passing sports fans that get you that extra 200k+ the GAA brings in for their jewel in the crown events.

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 08:21PM

thebaz wrote: »

ok , I can see where you are coming from - and I've seen it at both levels - from privilleged schools rugby and yet I also have a wide interest in boxing , made a documentary on a boxer who came from one of the most disadvantaged areas to getting a world title - the sheer drive to succeed (that all sportsman must or should have ) - rugby I dont believe is as elitist as it may once have been (thankfully

Ah he doesn't have a point really. Neymar is a completely false equivalency. Apart from the fact that the world is scouted to death for soccer stars, Neymar was picked up and contracted by Santos FC at the age of 11 and went through their youths section until he graduated to senior club level at 17.

Until there's even a tenth of the money that creates these systems available in this country (and that goes for soccer here too), you won't see that kind of scouting and development.

The Lost Sheep · 08-03-2018 08:32PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

If you want to talk about relatability to the professional players, GAA and rugby have a stronger claim to the title of the "people's game" than soccer. Who here can relate to someone who left school around 15 or 16, and was a millionaire by 18? Yes, the vast majority of rugby players come from private schools, but aside from the ones who make a career in media, they nonetheless end up like many people from public schools, i.e., with a college degree working in some professional industry. It's not like Ireland is America.

Rugby doesnt. It has improved considerably in the pro era but the point about in the main pros come from a small number of schools in the country is very valid.
Ireland isnt America but the point stands. These schools are well out of reach for huge proportion of people in the country because they cant afford to spend 3000-4000 a year for just the fee's never mind any other costs on top of that.

thebaz wrote: »

ok , I can see where you are coming from - and I've seen it at both levels - from privilleged schools rugby and yet I also have a wide interest in boxing , made a documentary on a boxer who came from one of the most disadvantaged areas to getting a world title - the sheer drive to succeed (that all sportsman must or should have ) - rugby I dont believe is as elitist as it may once have been (thankfully

It isnt as bad as it was but when such a high proportion of pro players in the country attended such a small number of schools than it is very much elite.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ah he doesn't have a point really. Neymar is a completely false equivalency. Apart from the fact that the world is scouted to death for soccer stars, Neymar was picked up and contracted by Santos FC at the age of 11 and went through their youths section until he graduated to senior club level at 17.

Until there's even a tenth of the money that creates these systems available in this country (and that goes for soccer here too), you won't see that kind of scouting and development.

I do. Maybe Neymar not right example but proportion of pro rugby players attending fee paying schools here, in england/scotland etc is way too high compared to the number of these schools overall in the country

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 08:39PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I do. Maybe Neymar not right example but proportion of pro rugby players attending fee paying schools here, in england/scotland etc is way too high compared to the number of these schools overall in the country

No, you don't. Or at least you're not understanding the point. Substitute a rich soccer club for a fee-paying rugby school and you should get the idea. The only difference is one is a commercial educational establishment and the other is a coimmercial sports club.

Mysterypunter · 08-03-2018 08:40PM

No

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 08:42PM

Mysterypunter wrote: »

No

Fully committed to the discussion I see. Very courageous of you.

The Lost Sheep · 08-03-2018 08:56PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

No, you don't. Or at least you're not understanding the point. Substitute a rich soccer club for a fee-paying rugby school and you should get the idea. The only difference is one is a commercial educational establishment and the other is a coimmercial sports club.

You cant compare them. Theyre completely different in their set up and you're completely not seeing point im making.

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 09:01PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You cant compare them. Theyre completely different in their set up and you're completely not seeing point im making.

I am actually. And the point I'm making is largely the same. Until the money is there to scout and develop players in clubs as it is in soccer (except not in this country), the schools will always be the fall back for development.

ThunbergsAreGo · 08-03-2018 09:01PM

No as much as they like to think they do RTE and TV3 do not decide what the peoples game is

For most people that are in the pub, it is an excuse to start drinking earlier

The Lost Sheep · 08-03-2018 09:07PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I am actually. And the point I'm making is largely the same. Until the money is there to scout and develop players in clubs as it is in soccer (except not in this country), the schools will always be the fall back for development.

It isnt money and players are seen and the very best get a lot of work put in its the next tier down who dont and it isnt scouting that is the issue. off topic... for some reason i hate the phrase "scouting" in relation to rugby.

prawnsambo · 08-03-2018 09:11PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It isnt money and players are seen and the very best get a lot of work put in its the next tier down who dont and it isnt scouting that is the issue. off topic... for some reason i hate the phrase "scouting" in relation to rugby.

Of course it's money. Do you think soccer would have the draw it has for kids if there wasn't a potential pot of gold in it for them? And all the other 'ancillary' industries.

You can't compare rugby with soccer without acknowledging the huge financial gulf that lies between the two sports.

Benedict XVI · 08-03-2018 09:16PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

the two of these are intrinsically linked.
success breads success, and success breeds support.
which is exactly what happened to irish soccer between 88 and 94.
before then irish soccer was viewed as slightly more accessible to rugby, due to the irish players playing in english clubs.... but both sports would have had the same broadcasting frequency on irish tv.

Rugby gets its coverage because we have successful teams at club level who are among the best in Europe. we have a provincal system thats the envy of similar countries to ours, but most importantly we are an 'all island of ireland' national team. Only the GAA can point to a similar structure.

I'd totally disagree that having an all island structure is a reason that more people would have an affinity with international rugby over international soccer.

I find it better that soccer can maintain (by virtue of it being a 26 county setup) aspects of our national identity like the flag and anthem, rather than have to give them up to appease a small minority of the fan base or participants.

And the comparison with the GAA reading the all island structure are misplaced, as the GAA organisation in the north is very different to that of the rugby organisation there, for obvious reasons.

tayto lover · 08-03-2018 09:24PM

Has rugby become the "people's game"?

No. Not for me anyway.
I would watch an Ireland match on the t.v. or a Leinster or Munster match but at club level it's a very poor spectacle judging from the 4/5 matches i went to see when my young lad was playing.I found it boring and would much prefer a Gaelic or even a Soccer game.

Neil3030 · 08-03-2018 09:31PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Rugby doesnt. It has improved considerably in the pro era but the point about in the main pros come from a small number of schools in the country is very valid.
Ireland isnt America but the point stands. These schools are well out of reach for huge proportion of people in the country because they cant afford to spend 3000-4000 a year for just the fee's never mind any other costs on top of that.

A point that I didn't make may stand; I didn't say private school education was within the reach of the population, I said the ultimate outcome of a private and public education in Ireland remains the same - university degree, professional job. And for this reason, pro rugby players will end up having more in common with the population than soccer players who left school in their mid-teens, and into a world of nearly instant fortune.

08-03-2018 09:39PM

Anthems are not up for discussion

The Lost Sheep · 08-03-2018 09:47PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

A point that I didn't make may stand; I didn't say private school education was within the reach of the population, I said the ultimate outcome of a private and public education in Ireland remains the same - university degree, professional job. And for this reason, pro rugby players will end up having more in common with the population than soccer players who left school in their mid-teens, and into a world of nearly instant fortune.

I would disagree in that. General population have far more in common with soccer players considering a high number of soccer players come from working class areas etc or at least more relatable than rugby where most in academies and pro squads come from fee paying schools.

Benedict XVI · 08-03-2018 09:52PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The national identity of the rugby team is very clear and flags etc are just one form of conveying the identity.
And we are far better off not going that way with 26/6 in everything. Such backwards thinking IMO.

Deleted the post quoted, sorry but I did not want to go down the road towards a ban, will have to argue another time when the mods are not looking.

Benedict XVI · 08-03-2018 09:55PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I would disagree in that. General population have far more in common with soccer players considering a high number of soccer players come from working class areas etc or at least more relatable than rugby where most in academies and pro squads come from fee paying schools.

This is totally true

The Neymar comparisons are totally off

No lad from Ireland is becoming the next Neymar, but many from different backgrounds will become the next Long, O' Shea, Keane, Given etc.

Neil3030 · 08-03-2018 10:05PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I would disagree in that. General population have far more in common with soccer players considering a high number of soccer players come from working class areas etc or at least more relatable than rugby where most in academies and pro squads come from fee paying schools.

I'm not entirely sure this dichotomy holds - you either come from a working class background, or you go to private school? I'd imagine the vast majority of the country are somewhere in and around middle-class in terms of background, and went to a non-fee-paying school.

The Lost Sheep · 08-03-2018 10:08PM

Neil3030 wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure this dichotomy holds - you either come from a working class background, or you go to private school? I'd imagine the vast majority of the country are somewhere in and around middle-class in terms of background, and went to a non-fee-paying school.

Oh i know im going to extreme but general point still stands on the fee paying school issue. Theyre well out of reach for most people yet rugby has much higher proportion from these schools playing at a high level. The percentage has gone down in parts in recent years and things are going the right way.

thebaz · 09-03-2018 12:06AM

Benedict XVI wrote: »

This is totally true

The Neymar comparisons are totally off

No lad from Ireland is becoming the next Neymar, but many from different backgrounds will become the next Long, O' Shea, Keane, Given etc.

hopefully Irish players have more aspirations than being the next Long - he's scored one goal in a year and can't make relegation threatened Southamptons first team . :eek:
I brought up Neymar - but I could have named any first teamer from Man United or City , Chelsea, Barcelona , Real, PSG , or even everton and about 30 or more other first team squads in Europe - these are the players , young players aspire to - but as I said previously can any ordinary person relate to players making 100 K plus a week (school fees are 5 k a year) - I can't and again can relate more to homegrown professional rugby players here - look at the cost of going to games at chelsea / arsenal and the like regulaely - rugby may have been elitist , but think its changing but soccer has too has its problems too - nothing is perfect. Amen.

The Rape of Lucretia · 09-03-2018 12:38AM

thebaz wrote: »

but as I said previously can any ordinary person relate to players making 100 K plus a week

No they cant. There are apparently two guys playing in Spain, who earn obscene amounts. Ronald is one of them (cant remember his second name), and a guy called Messy who plays for one of the Barcelona teams. Supposedly very good. But has anyone ever heard of them ? Of course not. They earn so much, that people cant relate to them, so have no interest in watching them. They are hardly recognised outside of their own teams, and struggle to get endorsement deals or recognition for how good they are.

Has rugby become the "people's game"?

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