The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 06:24PM

pilly wrote: »

No I don't agree. The referendum will be voted for by all the citizens of Ireland, the CA is irrelevant to that vote.

There is no legal basis for bringing this to the high court. CA recommendations are just that, recommendations, nothing legally binding in them. In fact the Oireachtas committee were free to ignore them and they did disagree with some.

So in short, no, the referendum is needed, I don't see why either side would be afraid of the referendum.

It's the ultimate power play to try to stop the referendum happening at all and only shows weakness.

Sure we’ll have to wait and see what happens on the day. I only hear pro life people in the media. When are the pro appeal people going to get their show on the road?

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 06:29PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what do you think? they just want to delay a referendum they are terrified of losing. If they lose this referendum they have no reason for existence. Iona and the likes i mean.

Do you think that the referendum being carried will mean the end of RCC in Ireland? Why do you think that? The RCC is going strong in all kinds of places where there are abortions. That’s an interesting theory? Can you enlarge?

ohnonotgmail · 22-02-2018 06:32PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Do you think that the referendum being carried will mean the end of RCC in Ireland? Why do you think that? The RCC is going strong in all kinds of places where there are abortions. That’s an interesting theory? Can you enlarge?

who mentioned the end of the catholic church? I didn't.

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 06:33PM

david75 wrote: »

Theyre already getting ready for the church running schools and the right to die debates.

Amazing how unsurprised I am to find you here already moving on from killing people at one end to killing them at the other. When I’m picturing you now to be honest I’m seeing Pol Pot. I just can’t think of anyone else.

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 06:34PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

who mentioned the end of the catholic church? I didn't.

The idea that Iona only exists to put the side of the unborn baby?

Annasopra · 22-02-2018 06:38PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I was listening out in the kitchen and I didn’t here any stammering but the point is, would you not prefer Pilly if the referendum went ahead based on a completely unbiased report from the CA?
You do realize that if the referendum is carried now there will be endless cases to the High Court based on this ?

Sorry what? The CA processes for the 8th have not even been called into question

david75 · 22-02-2018 06:38PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Amazing how unsurprised I am to find you here already moving on from killing people at one end to killing them at the other. When I’m picturing you now to be honest I’m seeing Pol Pot. I just can’t think of anyone else.

Nice. Reported.
Who said anything about killing people? The right to die debate will happen eventually and safe to shuns Iona etc are against it.

I never said if I supported it eitherway by the way. Try and read posts before shooting your mouth off about them.

Loafing Oaf · 22-02-2018 06:40PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Do you think that the referendum being carried will mean the end of RCC in Ireland? Why do you think that?

The effective end of Catholic influence over the governing of the country. If abortion is liberalised, Ireland will be as secular as every other liberal democracy, bar a bit of i-dotting and t-crossing here and there...

Charmeleon · 22-02-2018 06:44PM

seamus wrote: »

It looks like an enquiry has already been carried out, the employee in question has been disciplined.

What purpose would it serve to hand over millions of euro to judges and barristers in an "enquiry"? To what end?

So you wouldn’t have a problem if a private firm who had sole responsibility for recruiting random people according to the demographics of the entire country, in order to produce a consensus opinion to guide the legislative committee turned out to have hired seven people from a recruiter’s prayer group, and a previous committee had earlier voted to recommend no change to the 8th ammendment? Sure thing then.

uptherebels · 22-02-2018 06:45PM

Charmeleon wrote: »

So you wouldn’t have a problem if a private firm who had sole responsibility for recruiting random people according to the demographics of the entire country, in order to produce a consensus opinion to guide the legislative committee turned out to have hired seven people from a recruiter’s prayer group, and a previous committee had earlier voted to recommend no change to the 8th ammendment? Sure thing then.

if the two were connected sure, if they weren't then no.

Charmeleon · 22-02-2018 06:59PM

uptherebels wrote: »

because if you have a completely random selection there is no guarantee that it will be balanced. I.e a random selection could have returned 99 teenagers or 99 pensioners. Would that have been balanced?

So if you want balance there has to be limits and control.

People going on about no representation from counties. RED C would have looked at the country as a whole. Tha'ts why 40 out of the 99 members came from the dublin or cork, which happen to be the biggest population concentrations in the country.

Leitrim and longford don't have any because they have a combined population of approx 70,000.
If red c are looking for a middle aged divorced lawyer where are they probably going to find them?

3.3 million electors, 99 CA members. Each member has to represent around 33-34 thousand people. The selection can’t be anywhere near that specific, it could only be age, sex and geography. That’s why it is so concerning that the statisticians calculate only a 1 in 6,500 chance that a random geographic spread would exclude such large swathes of the country.

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 07:23PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

The effective end of Catholic influence over the governing of the country. If abortion is liberalised, Ireland will be as secular as every other liberal democracy, bar a bit of i-dotting and t-crossing here and there...

Oh I would have said that that ship had sailed a long long time ago .
How long is it since divorce came in? I’d say Ireland is already by far one of the most secular countries in the civilized world.
My brother works in Switzerland and all their public holidays still tally with traditional Catholic Church holidays.
There’s a mysterious perception here that people are still being persecuted by the church, but when pressed, apart from the education business, people struggle to find evidence.

Fred Swanson · 22-02-2018 07:27PM

This post has been deleted.

uptherebels · 22-02-2018 07:31PM

Charmeleon wrote: »

3.3 million electors, 99 CA members. Each member has to represent around 33-34 thousand people. The selection can’t be anywhere near that specific, it could only be age, sex and geography. That’s why it is so concerning that the statisticians calculate only a 1 in 6,500 chance that a random geographic spread would exclude such large swathes of the country.

except it wasnt to pick 1 person to represent 33 -34 k people. It was to select 99 people that represented Irish society. based on information from the census.

"There are 100 Members of the Assembly, including the Chairperson. Members are being chosen at random to represent the views of the people of Ireland, and will be broadly representative of society as reflected in the Census, including age, gender, social class, regional spread etc. They must also be on the electoral register to vote in a referendum."

https://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/Resource-Area/FAQ/

Its far more complex than just sex age and location.

So again if it was completely random it may not have reflected balance.

The statiticans calculated that probability using a different methodology to what red c used. If he wanted accuracy he should have calculated the odds using their methodology.

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 07:32PM

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Education and hospitals. You forgot the hospitals.

Once those are dealt with, the RCC can slope off do what ever they want.

What about the hospitals? What problem have you got with how the hospitals are run? Most of the best hospitals in the world are affiliated to one of the Abrahamic religions.

Loafing Oaf · 22-02-2018 07:32PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Oh I would have said that that ship had sailed a long long time ago .
How long is it since divorce came in? I’d say Ireland is already by far one of the most secular countries in the civilized world.

Even with the 8th in force?

uptherebels · 22-02-2018 07:52PM

splinter65 wrote: »

What about the hospitals? What problem have you got with how the hospitals are run? Most of the best hospitals in the world are affiliated to one of the Abrahamic religions.

I would imagine most people don't care what affiliations a hospital has, only when those affiliations affect the medical care that is provided within them

david75 · 22-02-2018 08:06PM

Does anyone know which kind of model our legislation and delivery of service would take? I’ve seen people afraid that it’ll copy England’s but other people saying it’ll be more like Germany’s. Are there huge differences or is it just down to time scales like 12weeks / 20 weeks?

nozzferrahhtoo · 22-02-2018 08:39PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Amazing how unsurprised I am to find you here already moving on from killing people at one end to killing them at the other.

Could you explain to me how giving someone the right to die at the end of their life is "killing them at the other end"? I do hope people generally know the difference between killing someone and giving them the option to choose how their own life ends.

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 09:27PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Even with the 8th in force?

Well Ireland’s maternal care record is top class, 8th or no 8th
From WHO

http://www.who.int/gho/maternal_health/countries/irl.pdf?ua=1

A bit like our schools, also coming the umbrella of the church

splinter65 · 22-02-2018 09:35PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Could you explain to me how giving someone the right to die at the end of their life is "killing them at the other end"? I do hope people generally know the difference between killing someone and giving them the option to choose how their own life ends.

Would you be for assisted suicide or active euthanasia nozz?

pitifulgod · 22-02-2018 09:41PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Well Ireland’s maternal care record is top class, 8th or no 8th
From WHO

http://www.who.int/gho/maternal_health/countries/irl.pdf?ua=1

A bit like our schools, also coming the umbrella of the church

Thing is, people always sell Ireland as the safest place to give birth but it's far from perfect....
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/is-ireland-one-of-the-safest-places-to-have-a-baby-1.2114322

The picture that emerges from this work is very different from the situation described in the CSO data. The inquiry, which has just published its second report, says it has identified four times as many maternal deaths as the civil death registration system.

There were 38 maternal deaths between 2009 and 2012, the report says. Ten were classified as direct maternal deaths, ie due to obstetric causes. Twenty-one deaths were indirect maternal deaths due to pre-existing conditions that were exacerbated by pregnancy. Another seven deaths of pregnant women were attributed to coincidental causes, but these are not included when calculating the maternal mortality rate. The rate of maternal mortality increased from 8.6 per 100,000 maternities in the period 2009-2011 to 10.5 in 2010-2012.

Loafing Oaf · 22-02-2018 09:42PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Well Ireland’s maternal care record is top class, 8th or no 8th
From WHO

http://www.who.int/gho/maternal_health/countries/irl.pdf?ua=1

A bit like our schools, also coming the umbrella of the church

Irrelevant to the issue at hand...

nozzferrahhtoo · 22-02-2018 09:43PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Would you be for assisted suicide or active euthanasia nozz?

So you are going to ignore the question and presume to ask one of your own as a cover for that dodge move?

Quid pro Quo, if you want me to answer your question then have the basic decorum to answer mine first. Especially since you already ignored one of my posts today.

Again:

"Could you explain to me how giving someone the right to die at the end of their life is "killing them at the other end"? I do hope people generally know the difference between killing someone and giving them the option to choose how their own life ends."

Fred Swanson · 22-02-2018 09:44PM

This post has been deleted.

Edward M · 22-02-2018 10:12PM

Don't know if anyone seen this.
Catherine None claiming bullying and sexist treatment from a party colleague, going back awhile, but intensified since she was on the oireachtas committee recommending repeal of the eighth.
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fine-gael-bosses-promise-swift-probe-into-bullying-and-sexism-allegations-36633718.html

This piece below from rte website.
Noone was the chairman of the oireachtas committee.

"The allegations date back several years, but Senator Noone claims the alleged bullying has intensified since the debate around the referendum on the Eighth Amendment got under way."

Bannasidhe · 22-02-2018 11:18PM

splinter65 wrote: »

My brother works in Switzerland and all their public holidays still tally with traditional Catholic Church holidays.
.

Depends on the Canton - Valais, for example, is still very very Roman Catholic while the neighbouring canton of Geneva is very Calvinist. The canton of Zurich has been theologically Protestant since Zwingli introduced the Reformation there.
Of those living in Switzerland who profess to have a religion it's about 40% RCC, 35% Swiss Reformed plus there are Lutherans, Jews, Muslims etc etc. So it's not as 'Catholic' as you seem to wish to imply. I know because I lived there.

Also have you considered that a) many of these 'holidays' would have been there since Europe was 'Christendom' meaning they are traditional and no politician would ever suggest getting rid of a holiday because of it's historical antecedents, and b) Most 'Catholic' holidays are pagan/Jewish in origin. Like politicians, the Early Bishops knew better than to suggest getting rid of a holiday because of it's historical antecedents - it was so much more effective to rebrand them.

And no - Ireland is not secular. Not while one religion controls over 90% of our State Funded education system and hospitals which are designated as University Teaching hospitals can determine treatment based on the ethos of that same religion.
Education and Healthcare are biggies.

applehunter · 22-02-2018 11:28PM

You can be in favour of repeal and also question media bias and point out the sham that were the processes that got us to a referendum.

Bannasidhe · 22-02-2018 11:55PM

applehunter wrote: »

You can be in favour of repeal and also question media bias and point out the sham that were the processes that got us to a referendum.

Ummm.... does it really matter what process was used to decide to call a Referendum?

Personally, I think the C.A. was just a way for Government to pass the buck but that is not relevant to the actual referendum.

A question will be put
The electorate will vote.
And that, as they say, is that.

david75 · 22-02-2018 11:58PM

It was obvious to all the CA was just the govt kicking the can down the road.
Wasn’t the upheaval in FG happening at the same time? Enda retiring n all that?

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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