Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

20Cent · 20-02-2018 03:07PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Government Accountability Office in April 2017, there were 62 fatal “far-right violent extremist-motivated attacks” leading to 106 deaths between 12 September 2001 and 31 December 2016.
https://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf

Permabear · 20-02-2018 04:42PM

This post has been deleted.

Havockk · 20-02-2018 05:39PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The figures don't include police shootings, which as you know....

Permabear · 20-02-2018 05:58PM

This post has been deleted.

Havockk · 20-02-2018 06:03PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I admit my post was in jest, but for gods sake, at least have a shred of honesty as in regards to right-wing violence.

20Cent · 20-02-2018 06:13PM

The numbers being killed by far right extremists are on the increase. 60 in the last year. This is coinciding with much more visibility for such groups and their propaganda it's no coincidence. Plenty of people warned about this and the normalisation of extreme far right views. Part of this is the university tours of people like Richard Spencer.

The Legend Of Kira · 20-02-2018 06:43PM

20Cent wrote: »

The numbers being killed by far right extremists are on the increase. 60 in the last year. This is coinciding with much more visibility for such groups and their propaganda it's no coincidence. Plenty of people warned about this and the normalisation of extreme far right views. Part of this is the university tours of people like Richard Spencer.

If you want to talk about numbers, there were more people killed in the Islamic terrorist attack on Paris late 2015 then some of the recent school shootings,, I can,t recall any posts from you expressing concern about Islamic extremists radicalising others prior to engaging in terrorism but i guess you mightn,t wanna don,t highlight that as much as it might be Islamophobic according to the left wing narrative, or the London attack last summer, one of the attackers appeared in a channel 4 documantary a few months prior ( jihadis next door ) he & others used to man street stalls & engage in recruitment activity- I don,t recall any posts from yourself asking questions like " who else did they mange to radicalise when they engaged in recruitment activity ? "

"" normalisation of extreme far right views ""

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Views are just that views,, holding a view/opinion is not a crime the last time I checked & " [/font]extreme far right views " all depends as what you class as [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" [/font]extreme far right views " as only a few weeks some known people wit left wing views were complaining about Nigel Farage being left speak at the Rds centre as they classed him as someone with [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]" [/font]extreme far right views " ,

LaChatteGitane · 20-02-2018 07:00PM

I'm wondering how many of the 'free speech' brigade here have parents/grandparents that had close up dealings with nazis during WWII ?

The Legend Of Kira · 20-02-2018 07:04PM

20Cent wrote: »

The numbers being killed by far right extremists are on the increase. 60 in the last year. This is coinciding with much more visibility for such groups and their propaganda it's no coincidence. Plenty of people warned about this and the normalisation of extreme far right views. Part of this is the university tours of people like Richard Spencer.

"" Part of this is the university tours of people like Richard Spencer. ""

Honest question for everyone- prior to that viral video of Richard Spencer getting sucker punched,, how many people knew of or heard about Richard before that video went viral ? cause I say before that video went viral I didn,t know of nor heard about him prior to that, its somewhat Ironic to complain about him getting university tours when one person throwing that sucker punch gave him so much free publicity thus raised his public profile much more .

Permabear · 20-02-2018 07:13PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 20-02-2018 07:22PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" Part of this is the university tours of people like Richard Spencer. ""

Honest question for everyone- prior to that viral video of Richard Spencer getting sucker punched,, how many people knew of or heard about Richard before that video went viral ? cause I say before that video went viral I didn,t know of nor heard about him prior to that, its somewhat Ironic to complain about him getting university tours when one person throwing that sucker punch gave him so much free publicity thus raised his public profile much more .

First time I heard of him was a different viral video. The one of him seig heiling at an event to celebrate trumps wining the election.

20Cent · 20-02-2018 07:25PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No students attended the speaker and his audience of Nazi skinheads have nothing to do with the university that was obliged to host them.

How or why do you think people become radicalized? They don't lick it off stones.

Permabear · 20-02-2018 07:34PM

This post has been deleted.

DickSwiveller · 20-02-2018 08:20PM

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

I'm wondering how many of the 'free speech' brigade here have parents/grandparents that had close up dealings with nazis during WWII ?

Completely irrelevant. None of you can debate the substantial issue of free speech without resorting to hysterical emotional blackmail.

LaChatteGitane · 20-02-2018 08:25PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Completely irrelevant. None of you can debate the substantial issue of free speech without resorting to hysterical emotional blackmail.

You are being very abrasive.
It is a very emotive subject, even if it doesn't apply to you.
You haven't been very positive about protesters' free speech either, probably because you think they are left.
Free speech comes with consequences whether you like it or not.

DickSwiveller · 20-02-2018 08:28PM

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

You are being very abrasive.
It is a very emotive subject, even if it doesn't apply to you.
You haven't been very positive about protesters' free speech either, probably because you think they are left.
Free speech comes with consequences whether you like it or not.

Again, this obsession with left and right. I couldn't care less what politics they subscribe to. Please answer the question I've asked a few times without receiving an answer: Who decides who is allowed to speak, and on what basis?

LaChatteGitane · 20-02-2018 08:37PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Again, this obsession with left and right. I couldn't care less what politics they subscribe to. Please answer the question I've asked a few times without receiving an answer: Who decides who is allowed to speak, and on what basis?

It was said here before. hate speech !
Of course, you don't like that answer, but that is not my problem.

Now, answer the question whether either your parents or grandparents were unfortunate enough to be living through and in WWII ?

ancapailldorcha · 20-02-2018 08:53PM

Mod: DickSwiveller will be taking a short break.

20Cent · 20-02-2018 08:53PM

There has been a lot of research into how so many normal people became Nazi's in Germany. It is because views considered repulsive and outside the bounds of decent behaviour become normalised.
Normalisation refers to a process that makes something more normal or regular. A bit like the frog being slowly boiled the temperature rises slowly until it's too late. Speaking in places such as universities is a part of that process to make hate normal. As if it's a totally rational think to wish for genocide We should resist this normalisation when possible and fight against it.

The Legend Of Kira · 20-02-2018 10:30PM

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Again, this obsession with left and right. I couldn't care less what politics they subscribe to. Please answer the question I've asked a few times without receiving an answer: Who decides who is allowed to speak, and on what basis?

It was said here before. hate speech !
Of course, you don't like that answer, but that is not my problem.

Now, answer the question whether either your parents or grandparents were unfortunate enough to be living through and in WWII ?

"" It was said here before. hate speech ""

Hate speech as in hate speech laws you mean ? if so- as its already being pointed out on this thread there are no so called hate speech laws in the United States,, + public universities in the United States are legally required to uphold the first amendment.

"" [font=DroidSans, sans-serif]University President Kent Fuchs has now told students that he is “shocked” that he must uphold the First Amendment "" .[/font]

[font=DroidSans, sans-serif] http://redalertpolitics.com/2017/10/11/uf-president-shocked-learn-public-university-must-uphold-1st-amendment-video/[/font]

LaChatteGitane · 20-02-2018 10:52PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" It was said here before. hate speech ""

Hate speech as in hate speech laws you mean ? if so- as its already being pointed out on this thread there are no so called hate speech laws in the United States,, + public universities in the United States are legally required to uphold the first amendment.

"" [font=DroidSans, sans-serif]University President Kent Fuchs has now told students that he is “shocked” that he must uphold the First Amendment "" .[/font]

[font=DroidSans, sans-serif] http://redalertpolitics.com/2017/10/11/uf-president-shocked-learn-public-university-must-uphold-1st-amendment-video/[/font]

I'm not talking about laws.
I'm talking about a moral code between decent human beings. Do you really need laws for that ?

Permabear · 21-02-2018 09:06AM

This post has been deleted.

Jcarroll07 · 21-02-2018 11:44AM

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

It was said here before. hate speech !
Of course, you don't like that answer, but that is not my problem.

Now, answer the question whether either your parents or grandparents were unfortunate enough to be living through and in WWII ?

Hate speech? Totally subjective. E.g you disagreeing with me is hate speech says who says me. I even recently heard one person say telling someone to f off is hate speech. Thats the problem no limits and it is very susceptible as can currently be seen to "concept creep".

LaChatteGitane · 21-02-2018 12:27PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I get your point about Nazi Germany regarding censorship and propaganda.
The thing is, this was the state that upheld the censorship. I would more like it if society would do this. As in not giving a platform to extremists.
You realize that white supremacists/neo-nazis, feminazis, misogynists and islamists are using propaganda to find 'victims' to fight their cause.

I grew up in a time, in mainland Europe, where the war was not thatfar in the past. The atrocities were still fresh in the collective memory. No one would be wearing a swastika on their clothing (for example), no one would ever talk positively about nazism. I'm certain there were people who were of the opinion that Hitler and co were all that, but they wouldn't voice it.
They wouldn't voice it because they wouldn't like the consequences of such 'free speech' and their life wouldn't be worth living, because of society's pressure. Not because of the law.

I've lived through 4 decades of relative pleasantness, peace and quiet. Somehow in the last decade the extremists have gotten a foothold all over the world. Why ? Why is it okay now ?

If for whatever reason a university doesn't want to give a platform to opinions that are not in line with their policies/moral code, then they don't have to give that platform.

LaChatteGitane · 21-02-2018 12:29PM

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Hate speech? Totally subjective. E.g you disagreeing with me is hate speech says who says me. I even recently heard one person say telling someone to f off is hate speech. Thats the problem no limits and it is very susceptible as can currently be seen to "concept creep".

Hate speech is not about disagreeing with someone, is it? I suggest you google hate speech.

Permabear · 21-02-2018 02:12PM

This post has been deleted.

johnp001 · 21-02-2018 03:18PM

LaChatteGitane wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Just regarding extremists, they always exist it is just the case that what is defined as extreme changes over time. Today's extremist is tomorrow's centrist and vice versa.
What is detrimental to society-wide productive discourse is when the Overton window of allowable opinion narrows and the term extremist is used as a reason not to engage with members of society with beliefs outside this window.

To quote Brandeis again from the same judgement as Permabear cited earlier "...the path of safety lies in the opportunity to discuss freely supposed grievances and proposed remedies, and that the fitting remedy for evil counsels is good ones."

20Cent · 21-02-2018 03:37PM

There are already restrictions on free speech even in the US. You can't threaten someones life, libel them, slander them or advocate violence against them without ending up in legal trouble. A talk titles how to find chil porn without being caught, how to rob a bank etc wouldn't be allowed. Yet a talk advocating genocide seems to be ok.
Maybe some student group should take a civil case against a university to solve this.
The claim that allowing nazi's to speak and then debating them doesn't really work with a talk where there might only be a short time for questions etc at the end. But don't see why a university should be obliged to host these characters and have nazi skinheads on campus. Their very presence is intimidating. Easy to say "man up" but I'd imagine a Jewish person would feel very uncomfortable having their right to live debated as if that is an acceptable thing to do.
Regarding the slippery slope argument plenty of countries have laws against hate speech like the Netherlands and Canada. Countries one wouldn't call oppressive.

Permabear · 21-02-2018 04:10PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 21-02-2018 04:24PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Got that bit. We also established that certain speach is illegal such as threats. Why Nazi speach isn't considered a threat is probably the better question.

Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

Comments