Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

DickSwiveller · 17-02-2018 11:06PM

20Cent wrote: »

How often does a talk get abandoned because the audience are shouting?

Answer my question

Brian? · 18-02-2018 07:31AM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

How is the talk supposed to go ahead of they're shouting?

Many do go ahead. A small minority don't.

You want to censor protesters so a talk can go ahead? Is your solution to use physical coercion to remove someone for shouting?

Permabear · 18-02-2018 02:45PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 18-02-2018 05:50PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

200 cops cordoned off areas students were searched sounds like an inconvenience. Heimbach's talk was part of a "National Socialism or Death" tour.
Make America white again and white women who aren't having babies should be made do military service. Homosexuals should get the death penalty.
Dozens of Nazi skinheads who have beaten people in the past walking around. Pretty intimidating.

The Legend Of Kira · 18-02-2018 07:03PM

Brian? wrote: »

DickSwiveller wrote: »

How is the talk supposed to go ahead of they're shouting?

Many do go ahead. A small minority don't.

You want to censor protesters so a talk can go ahead? Is your solution to use physical coercion to remove someone for shouting?

"" You want to censor protesters so a talk can go ahead? Is your solution to use physical coercion to remove someone for shouting? ""

If a mob are prevented from stopping a meeting from taking place be it a public meeting or council meeting they re not being censored,, if you re at the cinema while a film is being shown or at [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]theatre while a show is being performed onstage if you re talking loudly at either venue while a film is on or a show is being performed you re disturbing other people in the room, someone might complain you to a member of staff, if the venue happens to have some security you will be asked politely to stop talking loudly , if you refuse this request security will then want you to leave the venue so other people can enjoy the film or the stage performance-pretty similar to removing someone from a venue who wants to disrupt other people from engaging with a speaker at a meeting.[/font]

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] I have a little scenario experiment- a theatre company is putting on a stage show of lets say for example ( the life of brian ) a small local religious group is against such a stage shown to be performed at the local [/font]theatre they threaten protests, the theatre decides a stage show of ( the life of brian ) will go ahead despite threats of protests, now on the night the stage show is to be performed just as about the show is about to begin a small local religious group decides to start shouting loudly so the stage show can,t go ahead, they feel that they re engaging in what see as a [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]legitimate protest, however other people in the venue who have paid money to see the stage show are pretty annoyed that a small group of people can disrupt things for everyone else, the theatre has some security at their venue & they decide to step in & remove the small number of people who keep shouting, Q for you does the fact that security has removed them mean in your opinion that they re somehow being censored ? [/font]

Brian? · 18-02-2018 07:37PM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

"" You want to censor protesters so a talk can go ahead? Is your solution to use physical coercion to remove someone for shouting? ""

If a mob are prevented from stopping a meeting from taking place be it a public meeting or council meeting they re not being censored,, if you re at the cinema while a film is being shown or at [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]theatre while a show is being performed onstage if you re talking loudly at either venue while a film is on or a show is being performed you re disturbing other people in the room, someone might complain you to a member of staff, if the venue happens to have some security you will be asked politely to stop talking loudly , if you refuse this request security will then want you to leave the venue so other people can enjoy the film or the stage performance-pretty similar to removing someone from a venue who wants to disrupt other people from engaging with a speaker at a meeting.[/font]

[font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] I have a little scenario experiment- a theatre company is putting on a stage show of lets say for example ( the life of brian ) a small local religious group is against such a stage shown to be performed at the local [/font]theatre they threaten protests, the theatre decides a stage show of ( the life of brian ) will go ahead despite threats of protests, now on the night the stage show is to be performed just as about the show is about to begin a small local religious group decides to start shouting loudly so the stage show can,t go ahead, they feel that they re engaging in what see as a [font=Open Sans, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]legitimate protest, however other people in the venue who have paid money to see the stage show are pretty annoyed that a small group of people can disrupt things for everyone else, the theatre has some security at their venue & they decide to step in & remove the small number of people who keep shouting, Q for you does the fact that security has removed them mean in your opinion that they re somehow being censored ? [/font]

Yes.

Permabear · 18-02-2018 07:59PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 18-02-2018 08:04PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I suppose being searched and armed police everywhere when going to school is probably counts as normal now in the land of the free.

Permabear · 18-02-2018 09:24PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 18-02-2018 10:00PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/education/2018/02/17/white-nationalist-talk-university-tennessee-matthew-heimbach/343307002/

Permabear · 18-02-2018 10:14PM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 18-02-2018 11:08PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Law enforcement are cops.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Yes is does: A few students explained they were frustrated with being searched and contained to a particular area because they pay tuition to the University of Tennessee.

Permabear wrote: »

You claimed that students were prevented from using the library or going to class, when the article notes that the event took place on a Saturday afternoon. How many UT students go to class on a Saturday afternoon?

I'll just check the timetable I have here ffs
You reckon no one thought to themselves maybe I'll skip college today since there are hundreds or cops and nazi's on campus, days after a mass school shooting.

Chris_Heilong · 19-02-2018 12:17AM

20Cent wrote: »

200 cops cordoned off areas students were searched sounds like an inconvenience. Heimbach's talk was part of a "National Socialism or Death" tour.
Make America white again and white women who aren't having babies should be made do military service. Homosexuals should get the death penalty.
Dozens of Nazi skinheads who have beaten people in the past walking around. Pretty intimidating.

Not all student protests are about the extreme example you have described(nazi, race supremacists), some of the speakers that have had protests against them have simply been people with a difference of ideology to the majority held by certain University campuses, such as more liberal Leftwing Universities which might have classes on subjects like Gender Studies and diversity Studies dont want to hear a more Conservative point of view as has happened many times to speakers like Ben Shipiro and Milo Yiannopoulos, these people would get protested just as much as any Nazi group which just goes to show there is no balance if we deny speakers based on student opposition.

Permabear · 19-02-2018 09:27AM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 19-02-2018 10:24AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Getting searched and sent to the designated protest area.
Freedom.
. Anyone wanting to enter the demonstration area will be moved through a checkpoint with metal detectors near the entrance to Circle Drive.

Permabear wrote: »

Again, the speech and protest took place on a Saturday afternoon. I don't think the students were thinking "maybe I'll skip college today" because classes are not normally held on a Saturday. Any student who wanted to use the library or other university facilities was, contrary to your representation, entirely free to do so.

Did you even do any research into this?
Message from the chancellor:

All classes and other events on the Hill are canceled for Saturday, and buildings will be locked. Other events on campus will go on as planned. The following buildings will be locked: Ayres Hall, Dabney-Buehler Hall, Science and Engineering Research Facility, Nielsen Physics Building, Hesler Biology Building, Austin Peay Building, Walters Life Science Building, Burchfiel Geography Building, Min H. Kao EECS Building, Dougherty Engineering Building, Ferris Hall, South College, Alumni Memorial Building, and Perkins Hall.

There will be no restrooms available to the public.

All roadways onto the Hill will close to vehicular traffic beginning at midnight Friday, including Circle Drive, Middle Drive, Estabrook Road, and Lower Drive. The 11th Street (G13) Garage and pedestrian bridge also will be closed.

Cars parked on the Hill or in the 11th Street (G13) Parking Garage after 5 a.m. Saturday will be towed. Towed vehicles can be claimed by contacting UTPD at 865-974-3114.

A buffer zone will be set up between Buehler Hall and the protest area. Only law enforcement officers and emergency personnel will be permitted in the buffer zone.

Units from the Knoxville Fire Department and ambulances will be on standby in the event of an emergency.

If you are in the area Saturday, be aware of your surroundings and report suspicious activity by calling UTPD at 865-974-3114 or by texting 69050. Type “VOLS (space)” before beginning your message.

Visitors to campus who wish to temporarily receive UT Alerts on February 17 can text 67283 then type the keyword “speaker17feb.” Read more about UT Alert.

The UT Police Department, at 1101 Cumberland Ave., is in close proximity to the protest area. Additionally, there are campus blue phones in the area that anyone can use to connect with UTPD.

Permabear wrote: »

As the university chancellor explains in the article, the university was constitutionally obligated to respect the right of the neo-Nazis to speak. It was also constitutionally obligated to respect the right of protesters to protest. The university, in my view, did a reasonably good job of upholding its constitutional obligations while making sure that other students were not unduly inconvenienced.

Your ongoing complaining about neo-Nazis on campus ignores the fact that, at a public university in the United States, they have a constitutional right to free expression, as the Supreme Court affirmed in National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977).

I'm saying the university should not be obliged to host such talks. Students and staff also have a right to access their campus unmolested and go about their business during opening hours. Wonder how black, Jewish, female and their allies feel about this lot on their campus.

Even the libertarians were protesting!

Giovani Ciazza, a sophomore studying communications, was blaring "Why can't we be friends?" from a Bluetooth speaker and wearing a "don't tread on me" flag pinned with "socialism sucks" buttons.

"Because it does," the libertarian student activist explained. "But I'm walking with students who believe in communism and socialism because I feel like we should all get together to stand up against something that's wrong, like Nazis."

Jcarroll07 · 19-02-2018 10:58AM

If organisations like Anti fa did not exist there would be no need for the such but the fact that last year they effectively fire bombed one of the universities means that they need to be checked. If they did it again there would be an outcry. Police would be asked why after seeing previous examples where anti fa attacked and set fire to campuses did they not this time take precautions to ensure that did not happen again. That is the main reason for the searches, a so called anti fascist organisation that dresses like, sounds like and acts like fascists ( yes i am effectively saying if it looks like a duck and quack like a duck its a duck) is going to these events with the intent of causing trouble and harming other people necessitating a police presence. Both for for the publics protection and as well for the kids stupid enough to get involved with anti fa because you can be sure as hell people of all types would react to such thuggish and facist like behaviour.

Ben Shapiro had went to UCLA Burkle twice last year or twice in 18 months (cant remember exact time frame) first time not a problem second time police had to spend over 600,000 on security because anti fa wanted to shut down with force his event. Should there ideally be not police present yes it was like that when i was in uni but when you have people who think they are justified in punching and physically attacking others for simply disagreeing with them then there needs to be precautions. Not saying they cant protest but there is a difference between protest and physically attacking people and engaging in political violence. I mean proper physically orientated political violence not this cr*p your words hurt my feelings.

Permabear · 19-02-2018 11:04AM

This post has been deleted.

20Cent · 19-02-2018 01:01PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Said it should be free to control who speaks. I'd argue that it is hate speech which is illegal so maybe one of them needs to take a case. Only public universities seem to be obliged to host these groups private ones are not. Once again the benefits of having money.

Permabear wrote: »

Nobody was "molested." If the university and the police decided to take security measures that necessitated the temporary closure of some buildings on a Saturday afternoon, so be it. I'm guessing that if the same measures were taken during an anti-Trump protest, you wouldn't be complaining about them.

Buildings shut down, student searched, not even bathrooms open hardly a normal day. The point I was making was countering the argument that the talk in this case did not inconvenience students when it clearly did. A trump visit would have massive security restrictions of course. Much as I dislike him he's not advocating genocide, yet.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It's all very nice and happy clappy to claim to be a full on advocate for free speech and that anyone should be allowed say whatever they want. Easy to do when one is not the target of the hate speech. Everyone has a line. Mine would be at advocating and calling for ethnic cleansing.

DickSwiveller · 19-02-2018 01:47PM

20Cent wrote: »

Said it should be free to control who speaks. I'd argue that it is hate speech which is illegal so maybe one of them needs to take a case. Only public universities seem to be obliged to host these groups private ones are not. Once again the benefits of having money.

Buildings shut down, student searched, not even bathrooms open hardly a normal day. The point I was making was countering the argument that the talk in this case did not inconvenience students when it clearly did. A trump visit would have massive security restrictions of course. Much as I dislike him he's not advocating genocide, yet.

It's all very nice and happy clappy to claim to be a full on advocate for free speech and that anyone should be allowed say whatever they want. Easy to do when one is not the target of the hate speech. Everyone has a line. Mine would be at advocating and calling for ethnic cleansing.

"Hate speech" is the most idiotic, broad, subjective term. It is completely unworkable in a free society. By the way, whatare the "hate speech" laws in America?

The Legend Of Kira · 19-02-2018 01:50PM

20Cent wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Said it should be free to control who speaks. I'd argue that it is hate speech which is illegal so maybe one of them needs to take a case. Only public universities seem to be obliged to host these groups private ones are not. Once again the benefits of having money.

Permabear wrote: »

Nobody was "molested." If the university and the police decided to take security measures that necessitated the temporary closure of some buildings on a Saturday afternoon, so be it. I'm guessing that if the same measures were taken during an anti-Trump protest, you wouldn't be complaining about them.

Buildings shut down, student searched, not even bathrooms open hardly a normal day. The point I was making was countering the argument that the talk in this case did not inconvenience students when it clearly did. A trump visit would have massive security restrictions of course. Much as I dislike him he's not advocating genocide, yet.

Permabear wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's all very nice and happy clappy to claim to be a full on advocate for free speech and that anyone should be allowed say whatever they want. Easy to do when one is not the target of the hate speech. Everyone has a line. Mine would be at advocating and calling for ethnic cleansing.[/quote]
I ll reply to some parts of your post.

"" I'd argue that it is hate speech which is illegal ""

So called hate speech illegal where exactly ? Illegal in the United States ? I hate to be the one to break it to you but there are no so called hate speech laws in the United States nor is there any hate speech exception to the first amendment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2015/05/07/no-theres-no-hate-speech-exception-to-the-first-amendment/?utm_term=.f52c2a570dfd

"" Everyone has a line. ""

You said the other day.

"" Disagree, peoples right to live isn't "up for debate""

Based on what you have said yourself in your own very words "" "" Everyone has a line. "" & "" Disagree, peoples right to live isn't "up for debate"" with the upcoming repeal referendum, would you be ok if pro life groups starting to disrupt debates & public meetings in order to stop them from taking place ? after all you have said "" "" Everyone has a line. "" & "" Disagree, peoples right to live isn't "up for debate""

20Cent · 19-02-2018 02:33PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

"Hate speech" is the most idiotic, broad, subjective term. It is completely unworkable in a free society. By the way, whatare the "hate speech" laws in America?

I presume you are against threatening people?
Saying you know where they live and you will kill them.
Or is that ok in the name of "free speech"?

Permabear · 19-02-2018 02:36PM

This post has been deleted.

DickSwiveller · 19-02-2018 02:48PM

20Cent wrote: »

I presume you are against threatening people?
Saying you know where they live and you will kill them.
Or is that ok in the name of "free speech"?

That's incitement to violence and illegal. You don't even know the difference.

20Cent · 19-02-2018 02:55PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

That's incitement to violence and illegal. You don't even know the difference.

How is a nazi campaigning for an ethnostate not incitement to violence or illegal?

DickSwiveller · 19-02-2018 03:03PM

20Cent wrote: »

How is a nazi campaigning for an ethnostate not incitement to violence or illegal?

It depends what they say. We don't punish thoughts. You're welcome to set up the thought police

20Cent · 19-02-2018 03:21PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

It depends what they say. We don't punish thoughts. You're welcome to set up the thought police

Gas how, maybe we shouldn't have to host nazi hate speech turns into omg thought police.

DickSwiveller · 19-02-2018 03:23PM

20Cent wrote: »

Gas how, maybe we shouldn't have to host nazi hate speech turns into omg thought police.

20cent, this conversation has been going around in circles. You don't understand the difference between free speech and incitement to violence. Every time this is explained to you deflect and respond addressing something else. I'm done.

20Cent · 19-02-2018 03:35PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

20cent, this conversation has been going around in circles. You don't understand the difference between free speech and incitement to violence. Every time this is explained to you deflect and respond addressing something else. I'm done.

I'm saying these Nazi speakers are inciting violence.

Valmont · 20-02-2018 01:20PM

B0jangles wrote: »

If a person is there to talk about the benefits of socialism or communism as a political theory why would the discussion devolve into talking about the innate inferiority of other people?

No it would involve talking about the innate inferiority of a class of people and the need to eliminate said class.

It's highly revealing that our yardstick in these discussions is whether someone is a Nazi or not. It seems simple to talk about the paradox of tolerance and the right to speak when we talk about something 99.9% of people agree is evil. It's laughable then some people are OK to say 'ah but the communists are fine because' even though the number of victims of communist regimes makes Hitler look like the Kinahan cartel in comparison.

Absolute free speech is crucial because bar one or two clear evil men most contentious issues are anything but clear cut. I'm sure there are people who think bankers shouldn't be allowed to give talks or members of socialist parties. The point is how are we ever going to let people see the truth or explore an issue for themselves if we don't let anyone talk about it. And considering universities are supposed to be the place for serious intellectual discussion of everything from atoms to the meaning of life, it's utterly risible so many of them are happy to let their students intimidate and harass speakers they disagree with - most of whom are labelled 'Nazi'!

Permabear · 20-02-2018 02:05PM

This post has been deleted.

Fine Universities that are denying free speech.

Comments