The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Andrew Beef · 20-02-2018 11:52PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

A 10 week old unborn child is not a “zygote”.

If someone came to me for advice around a crisis pregnancy I would help them emotionally and financially, and I would urge them not to have an abortion.

The paedophilia point is an analogy; things that are illegal for Irish people to do overseas basically.

You still didn’t answer my question. Third time asking now.
I’ll use your terminology, why is a 10 week old unborn child equal to me?

Because all human life is equal; and you certainly aren’t entitled to end an unborn child’s life just because its birth wouldn’t suit you.

ForestFire · 20-02-2018 11:53PM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

There are absolutely no links in that article. So, a claim made without evidence can then be dismissed without evidence. This claim is dismissed.

So can I pull this statement out anytime someone tries to have a reasoned conversation?

Oh and you must have missed this, while you were dismissing the use and meaning of words used.......the link

The Oxford English Dictionary

But what would they know about the use of words

Andrew Beef · 20-02-2018 11:55PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Andrew Beef wrote: »

A 10 week old unborn child is not a “zygote”.

If someone came to me for advice around a crisis pregnancy I would help them emotionally and financially, and I would urge them not to have an abortion.

The paedophilia point is an analogy; things that are illegal for Irish people to do overseas basically.

Well let me ask you something Andrew

If a woman you loved, sister, daughter, friend, had an abortion, would you really be okay having her criminalised for that?

Yes, because the murder of an unborn child should be a crime, except in very limited circumstances. People who travel abroad to have abortions and people who purchase and use abortion pills should be arrested and charged with an offence.

Bannasidhe · 20-02-2018 11:59PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Yes, because the murder of an unborn child should be a crime, except in very limited circumstances. People who travel abroad to have abortions and people who purchase and use abortion pills should be arrested and charged with an offence.

Pregnancy tests for all women before they can leave the country and again on their return.
If a woman claims she has a miscarriage than a panel of experts will decide if she is lying.
All mail addressed to woman must be opened in case there are abortion pills.

All life being equal it's only right that women's movements are curtailed in case they commit murder of an insentient being.

Bannasidhe · 21-02-2018 12:01AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Because all human life is equal; and you certainly aren’t entitled to end an unborn child’s life just because its birth wouldn’t suit you.

Can you end a child's life because the cost of the medication is too much?
The HSE do that quite often.
Do you think that is murder too?

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 12:01AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Because all human life is equal; and you certainly aren’t entitled to end an unborn child’s life just because its birth wouldn’t suit you.

Not all human life is equal.

Why are soldiers expendable?

Why aren't some very expensive medicines available on the medical card?

Why can people be executed in the US, China and many other countries?

Why don't we redistribute wealth to the third world to equalise life expectancy?

Answer: Because not all human life is equal

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 12:02AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Yes, because the murder of an unborn child should be a crime, except in very limited circumstances. People who travel abroad to have abortions and people who purchase and use abortion pills should be arrested and charged with an offence.

Nonsense.

ForestFire · 21-02-2018 12:03AM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Pregnancy tests for all women before they can leave the country and again on their return.
If a woman claims she has a miscarriage than a panel of experts will decide if she is lying.
All mail addressed to woman must be opened in case there are abortion pills.

All life being equal it's only right that women's movements are curtailed in case they commit murder of an insentient being.

Prostitution is illegal in Ireland, we don't need to check and test every man leaving the country for this? Especially those Amsterdam flights , so don't see why we would need to check every woman leaving.

swampgas · 21-02-2018 12:04AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Yes, because the murder of an unborn child should be a crime, except in very limited circumstances. People who travel abroad to have abortions and people who purchase and use abortion pills should be arrested and charged with an offence.

Tell me, have you expressed these view of yours to your family and friends? I would be curious to know if they are supportive of what are (to me, at any rate) views that belong in the dark ages. You seem very happy to use the word "murder" here on the internet, would you just as easily call your sister or daughter a murderer if she had an abortion at (say) 8 weeks?

ForestFire · 21-02-2018 12:07AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Not all human life is equal.

Why are soldiers expendable?

Why aren't some very expensive medicines available on the medical card?

Why can people be executed in the US, China and many other countries?

Why don't we redistribute wealth to the third world to equalise life expectancy?

Answer: Because not all human life is equal

To you agree with war?
Ireland is neutral by the way

Do you agree with restricted medicine?

Do you agree with the death the penalty.
Also illegal in Ireland.

To you agree with communisim?
I would guess this is illegal in our constitution?

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 12:11AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

If someone came to me for advice around a crisis pregnancy I would help them emotionally and financially, and I would urge them not to have an abortion.

.

Me too, but if they wanted to use that financial support to have an abortion, that would be their choice and I would accept it.

At the end of the day, whether it was my wife (very unlikely given her age), my daughters, my sisters, my friends, whoever, it would be her decision in the end. I would not stop her, I would not oppose her, I would not judge her and I would support her in her decision, whatever that was.

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 12:15AM

ForestFire wrote: »

To you agree with war?
Ireland is neutral by the way

Do you agree with restricted medicine?

Do you agree with the death the penalty.
Also illegal in Ireland.

To you agree with communisim?
I would guess this is illegal in our constitution?

A late night posting that doesn't make any sense. A poster posted some nonsense that all human life is equal, I explained to him many situations where that was not the case.

I will give you another example. Say your loved one falls into freezing water, would you jump in afterwards to save her?

Would you run into a burning building to save a complete stranger?

Not all human life is equal from all perspectives.

SusieBlue · 21-02-2018 12:17AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

Because all human life is equal; and you certainly aren’t entitled to end an unborn child’s life just because its birth wouldn’t suit you.

No it isn’t. And you might want to have a word with the government, because they don’t even issue birth/death certificates for stillbirths before 24 weeks gestation.
Even the government do not recognize it as a life lost.

So would you be happy for your wife or daughter to have her health significantly compromised or even die for the sake of a 10 week gestation pregnancy?
Because that’s what you are asking other people to do.

Even if you don’t think I am, I know I’m more important than a zygote.
I dispair that a small demographic of society believe me and other women to be so expendable, so insignificant as to equte our worth to that of a zygote.

ForestFire · 21-02-2018 12:22AM

blanch152 wrote: »

A late night posting that doesn't make any sense. A poster posted some nonsense that all human life is equal, I explained to him many situations where that was not the case.

I will give you another example. Say your loved one falls into freezing water, would you jump in afterwards to save her?

Would you run into a burning building to save a complete stranger?

Not all human life is equal from all perspectives.

Is after eleven late for you?

I simply pointed out that your examples of unequal rights to life are in fact, mostly examples of equal rights to life in Ireland as we have laws against them

Just like our current laws on the life of the unborn child.

Charmeleon · 21-02-2018 12:23AM

blanch152 wrote: »

A late night posting that doesn't make any sense. A poster posted some nonsense that all human life is equal, I explained to him many situations where that was not the case.

I will give you another example. Say your loved one falls into freezing water, would you jump in afterwards to save her?

Would you run into a burning building to save a complete stranger?

Not all human life is equal from all perspectives.

You are confusing duty of care with rights to life, just because everyone has a right to life doesn't mean everyone else has a non-negotiable duty to risk their own to vindicate that. To cause a death through negligence or malice is a totally different moral proposition. Likewise, if the life of a pregnant mother is at risk then it serves the rights of neither her or the child to continue the pregnancy.

By the way, a superior in the army who is responsible for the death of soldiers due to negligence, malice or incompetence would find themselves in great difficulties, soldiers are not expendable.

Annasopra · 21-02-2018 12:23AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I've no problem with... gay people.

You lashed in some bizarre statements about our marriages being experimental yesterday though. Not very convinced at all.

blanch152 · 21-02-2018 12:30AM

ForestFire wrote: »

Is after eleven late for you?

I simply pointed out that your examples of unequal rights to life are in fact, mostly examples of equal rights to life in Ireland as we have laws against them

Just like our current laws on the life of the unborn child.

No they weren't. Communism isn't illegal in Ireland. Neither is restricting medicines on the medical card (happens all the time). In fact, the existence of medical insurance allowing richer people to skip the queues is further evidence that in Ireland not all life is equal. The homeless dying in the street show that not all life is equal in Ireland. I could give countless more examples like those.

I wish sometimes that some of those who whinge and cry and wring their hands about the equal right to life of the unborn would actually do something practical about the equal right to life of the born.

mrkiscool2 · 21-02-2018 12:34AM

pleas advice wrote: »

See Shorter Oxford English Dictionary 397 (6th ed. 2007), which's first definition is "A fetus; an infant;...". See also ‘The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary: Complete Text Reproduced Micrographically’, Vol. I (Oxford University Press, Oxford 1971): 396, which defines it as: ‘The unborn or newly born human being; foetus, infant’.

Firstly, dictionary definition from 1971 isn't a citeable source. Definitions change. When I look up "child definiton", none of the definitions on the first page of results said fetus or infant. You can do the same, you'll get the same result. Really clutching at straws there.

splinter65 wrote: »

I keep dropping in here to see what’s going on and I see this.
No such thing as an unborn child....it’s no wonder the pro life side are winning ...carry on...

There isn't. A child isn't unborn. A child is a born human being.

Edward M wrote: »

From the OED.

"Definition of pregnant in English:
pregnant
ADJECTIVE
1(of a woman or female animal) having a child or young developing in the uterus.

‘she was heavily pregnant with her second child’
‘she was six months pregnant’".

So, we are using non-medical dictionaries to define what pregnancy is now? . Pregnancy is a medical condition. So, unless you can find a definition in a medical journal that calls a fetus a child, that won't work well for you.

ForestFire wrote: »

So can I pull this statement out anytime someone tries to have a reasoned conversation?

Oh and you must have missed this, while you were dismissing the use and meaning of words used.......the link

The Oxford English Dictionary

But what would they know about the use of words

The link had absolutely no links in it. It was a link to a anti-choice page which contained no links to cite what it was saying.

And absolutely. If someone is saying "well, x study" or "Well, x is defined as" and can't prove that's the definition, then you can absolutely dismiss it.

Can't believe I had to take my time to explain all that. Pain in my ass.

NuMarvel · 21-02-2018 12:39AM

ForestFire wrote: »

Prostitution is illegal in Ireland, we don't need to check and test every man leaving the country for this? Especially those Amsterdam flights , so don't see why we would need to check every woman leaving.

Because it's not a crime to travel abroad to participate in prostitution, whereas the poster Bann was replying to wants to make it a crime if someone has an abortion abroad.

Do you have other suggestions as to how to enforce this law if it were introduced? And would you be in favour of such a law in the first place?

Charmeleon · 21-02-2018 12:39AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No it isn’t. And you might want to have a word with the government, because they don’t even issue birth/death certificates for stillbirths before 24 weeks gestation.
Even the government do not recognize it as a life lost.

So would you be happy for your wife or daughter to have her health significantly compromised or even die for the sake of a 10 week gestation pregnancy?
Because that’s what you are asking other people to do.

Even if you don’t think I am, I know I’m more important than a zygote.
I dispair that a small demographic of society believe me and other women to be so expendable, so insignificant as to equte our worth to that of a zygote.

I'm with you on that, I know if my wife or daughter was in grave danger or severe distress because of a pregnancy I wouldn't hesitate to put her life first. But, the critical difference as I see it is that I am not perfect, I wouldn't consider myself to be a model of upstanding morals. However, I expect the state to aim for higher standards than my own flawed selfishness. We need to debate this calmly and with a willingness to accept that neither position has a monopoly on the moral high ground here.

I will vote for repeal, but very reluctantly if it is for unlimited, no questions asked abortion on demand. The reason I am arguing with the repeal side is because so many insist there is no moral question to ponder here, 'its just a clump of cells', 'there's no problem voting on which lives deserve to live or die' etc. To me they are disturbing propositions and people are blinded by their own ideological stance on what the full implications of these statements are. What gives anyone here authority to set the bar on what category of human lives can be disregarded?

Candamir · 21-02-2018 12:45AM

uptherebels wrote: »

You don't believe that years ago in conservative Catholic Ireland where suicide and unplanned pregnancies were sins that these things may have been under reported?

As for someone who routinely ignores being asked to provide evidence of their claims, I feel this quote is appropriate

May have already been answered, and unsure really to the relavence here, but when as suicide was a criminal act in this country, a coroner would rarely make a finding of suicide. For a time, a coroner was unable to make a finding of suicide, as it implicated a named person (the deceased) in a crime. Even now that it has been decriminalised, it is not always recorded in suicides.
http://www.presscouncil.ie/address-by-patrick-oconnor-to-suicide-and-the-press-meeting

blanch152 wrote: »

If a doctor refuses medical treatment (including the morning after pill) on conscience grounds for a woman in distress over a possible unplanned pregnancy and she later commits suicide, was the doctor in breach of their oath as a doctor?

No. So long as the doctor has followed medical council guidelines to refer on to another doctor who will provide the service, he has not failed in his duty of care.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Some would argue that the doctor could just send the woman to another doctor. But that argument falls apart. Ashers bakery in Northern Ireland were not allowed tell a gay customer to just go to another bakery for their wedding cake.

Once something becomes a "human right", people are forced to go against their conscious.

See above.

Charmeleon · 21-02-2018 12:46AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is that how you consider conjoined twins? as one hosting the other?

No, I was using the words of the previous poster.

2wsxcde3 · 21-02-2018 12:52AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You lashed in some bizarre statements about our marriages being experimental yesterday though. Not very convinced at all.

Anything new is in experimental mode for a while. My statement was not gay specific. It relates to anything new. New vaccines are in experimental mode for a while. New technology, such as driverless cars, are in experimental mode for a while. Two straight men getting married to defraud the tax man would be a pothole many weren't expecting.

I don't believe though the pro-choice side should keep associating this referendum with the same-sex marriage referendum. There is a something cynical about that. There are pro-life LGBT movements such as PLAGAL whose motto is "Human rights start when human life begins."

Sweetemotion · 21-02-2018 12:57AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Firstly, dictionary definition from 1971 isn't a citeable source. Definitions change. When I look up "child definiton", none of the definitions on the first page of results said fetus or infant. You can do the same, you'll get the same result. Really clutching at straws there.

There isn't. A child isn't unborn. A child is a born human being.

So, we are using non-medical dictionaries to define what pregnancy is now? . Pregnancy is a medical condition. So, unless you can find a definition in a medical journal that calls a fetus a child, that won't work well for you.

The link had absolutely no links in it. It was a link to a anti-choice page which contained no links to cite what it was saying.

And absolutely. If someone is saying "well, x study" or "Well, x is defined as" and can't prove that's the definition, then you can absolutely dismiss it.

Can't believe I had to take my time to explain all that. Pain in my ass.

So your own self righteous opinions are now facts and to be undisputed after a biased 5 minute Google search?

pilly · 21-02-2018 12:57AM

I'd be fully in favour of the fake womb idea but only after every living breathing child that already exists had at least the basics in this country like a place to call home.

Sweetemotion · 21-02-2018 01:04AM

pilly wrote: »

I'd be fully in favour of the fake womb idea but only after every living breathing child that already exists had at least the basics in this country like a place to call home.

Who do you think would benefit most from the fake womb idea, men or women?

2wsxcde3 · 21-02-2018 01:06AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Who do you think would benefit most from the fake womb idea, men or women?

The unborn.

pleas advice · 21-02-2018 01:21AM

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Firstly, dictionary definition from 1971 isn't a citeable source. Definitions change. When I look up "child definiton", none of the definitions on the first page of results said fetus or infant. You can do the same, you'll get the same result. Really clutching at straws there.

So, we are using non-medical dictionaries to define what pregnancy is now? . Pregnancy is a medical condition. So, unless you can find a definition in a medical journal that calls a fetus a child, that won't work well for you.

special pleading / moving the goalposts, but anyway

https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/_/cite.aspx?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com%2FUnborn%2BChild&word=Unborn%20Child&sources=MillerKeane,wkMed,dorland,hm_med,mosbyMD,MGH_Med,wkHP,hcMed,gem,evPod,wkDen,mosby,vet,iMedix

Oldtree · 21-02-2018 01:40AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

I think you'll find that the teenage pregnancies rate has dropped as in addition to education, they no longer get automatically pushed to the top of the council housing lists.

david75 · 21-02-2018 01:46AM

Obvious bots aside

The appalling outdated and redundant stupidity on show in this thread and in Ireland itself, is depressing.

We know the referendum will pass. These fugnots are just here to make it ugly. Ignore them.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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