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Irish Language Act in the North: Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal?

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Comments

  • #182
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Quite frankly, that is nonsense.

    Why are people posting here, other than to express their opinion on an issue?

    If I want to listen to people just blindly repeating the arguments of the political party they support, I will listen to boring Dail proceedings. There are people prepared to discuss what the content of an ILA might be and there are also people who don't have a clue because they are repeating a slogan picked up from the political party of choice.

    The question is 'Do you want ILA or not'
    not
    'Do you like the Irish language or not'.
    I think there should be an ILA, simple as that.
    While I know exactly what is involved/proposed it doesn't matter what that is, because it will be constructed by people who are positive about it.


  • #183
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    The DUP are the ones acting like brats here. Their grassroots won't wear any concessions on the Irish language despite moves to give equal bearing to the rhyming slang of Ulster Scots.

    Why on earth would any Irish party in Ireland agree to dismissing the Irish language? They are even fine with a slang getting level pegging, but the grassroots DUP want it all their way and Foster is covering and deflecting.
    Any anti-Irish language argument any unionist can give pales in comparison to the legitimacy of Ulster Scots, which again would be given level pegging, but that won't satisfy those who would rather eradicate the culture of the indigenous people.
    It's a case of fear. They fear if they give a little however amicably, the wheels might come their other positions such as anti-gay equality and magic over science.


  • #184
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,158 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    There was a programme on a few weeks ago about Protestants learning Irish in Belfast. I can't remember which station it was on.

    I thought it was great that something like that could happen and would be all for the ILA. I'm not fluent myself but have a fairly good vocabulary and would love to be a fluent Irish speaker. I could keep a conversation but get stuck occasionally.

    I think the problems arose between SF and the DUP because some people spoke too soon and let the cat out of the bag so to speak and that riled the DUP grassroots who would like to remain in the dark ages.


  • #185
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The question is 'Do you want ILA or not'
    not
    'Do you like the Irish language or not'.
    I think there should be an ILA, simple as that.
    While I know exactly what is involved/proposed it doesn't matter what that is, because it will be constructed by people who are positive about it.

    Over on the threads on the 8th Amendment, there are many debates about what form of abortion law we should have, not just about whether or not we should have an abortion law.

    It is bizarre to reduce the choice to a binary one, do you support an ILA or not.

    It is even more bizarre when the leading advocates of an ILA cannot explain what they mean by one.

    That is all.


  • #186
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Over on the threads on the 8th Amendment, there are many debates about what form of abortion law we should have, not just about whether or not we should have an abortion law.

    It is bizarre to reduce the choice to a binary one, do you support an ILA or not.

    It is even more bizarre when the leading advocates of an ILA cannot explain what they mean by one.

    That is all.

    What's that debate got to do with this?

    Could you explain why you think a binary choice in relation to an ILA is bizarre. Because I think that is bizarre in itself.


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  • #187
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,401 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    tayto lover wrote: »
    I think the problems arose between SF and the DUP because some people spoke too soon and let the cat out of the bag so to speak and that riled the DUP grassroots who would like to remain in the dark ages.

    Foster seems to have agreed something in the negotiations, but she didn't help things earlier on with her crocodile sentiments. This has been put there since St Andrews, the DUP outght not have characterised it as a red line, SF would have managed their base better.


  • #188
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Over on the threads on the 8th Amendment, there are many debates about what form of abortion law we should have, not just about whether or not we should have an abortion law.

    It is bizarre to reduce the choice to a binary one, do you support an ILA or not.

    It is even more bizarre when the leading advocates of an ILA cannot explain what they mean by one.

    That is all.

    I DO KNOW what is proposed.

    The 'issue' is should there be a free standing act or not. As binary as it gets.


  • #189
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Quite frankly, that is nonsense.

    Why are people posting here, other than to express their opinion on an issue?

    If I want to listen to people just blindly repeating the arguments of the political party they support, I will listen to boring Dail proceedings. There are people prepared to discuss what the content of an ILA might be and there are also people who don't have a clue because they are repeating a slogan picked up from the political party of choice.

    Have you actually read the title of this thread ?

    It is "Northern Ireland. Have Sinn Fein scored a major own goal"

    In that regard your views or that of any poster on the Irish language are completely irrelevant.

    What is relevant to the topic is who has scored a major own goal.

    SF who through direct rule will have the British government that in regards of Scotland, Wales and the St. Andrews Agreement are in no position to refuse an Irish language act.

    or

    The DUP whose leader was prepared to accept SF`s proposals on an ILA that would have restored Stormont until it was scuppered by her own Westminster MP`s resulting in possible direct rule.
    Something that not only made her look powerless as leader of her own party, (and where she may be required to resign as leader with no Stormont Assembly) , also made May and Varadkar look naive.
    All that plus the DUP may now have SSM imposed on them regardless of their wishes.

    Right now there is only one party scrambling around for a ball they kicked into the back of their own net imho and it aint SF.


  • #190
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    tayto lover wrote: »
    There was a programme on a few weeks ago about Protestants learning Irish in Belfast. I can't remember which station it was on.

    I thought it was great that something like that could happen and would be all for the ILA. I'm not fluent myself but have a fairly good vocabulary and would love to be a fluent Irish speaker. I could keep a conversation but get stuck occasionally.

    I think the problems arose between SF and the DUP because some people spoke too soon and let the cat out of the bag so to speak and that riled the DUP grassroots who would like to remain in the dark ages.

    If it was possible to insist on applicants for an Irish passport having the cupla focal, with Brexit and all that maybe unionists would look on an Irish language act more benignly.

    Just saying.


  • #191
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    charlie14 wrote: »
    If it was possible to insist on applicants for an Irish passport having the cupla focal, with Brexit and all that maybe unionists would look on an Irish language act more benignly.

    Just saying.
    Like, aon focal, dha focal, triur focal eile?
    https://youtu.be/_hcI5q7F8OY


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  • #192
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Edward M wrote: »
    Like, aon focal, dha focal, triur focal eile?

    Or they could practice their aon do tri`s when lighting up in the Renewable Heat Incentive Scheme so they could all burn cash at the same time.
    It would also work for ensuring Orange Order bands all fired up at the same time.
    Endless possibilities.


  • #193
    Esel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,907 ✭✭✭✭Esel
    Not Your Ornery Onager


    blanch152 wrote: »
    On the indigenous language bit, do you realise that the Ulster dialect of the Irish language died out in the mid-1970s...

    Ulster has 9 counties. Is Gaelic dead in Donegal, for instance?

    Do you refer to Northern Ireland as 'the Province', by any chance?

    Not your ornery onager



  • #194
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Irish is an indigenous language on this island.

    Not really. The amount of people who filled out the census form in Irish was miniscule. Even here in the Republic, according to Bank of Ireland fewer than 00.1% of their customers use the Irish language option on their pass machines. It is a waste of taxpayers money trying to force people to use it. Up north Sinn Fein are using the irish language to rub their opponents up the wrong way and antagonise others.


  • #195
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Not really. The amount of people who filled out the census form in Irish was miniscule. Even here in the Republic, according to Bank of Ireland fewer than 00.1% of their customers use the Irish language option on their pass machines. It is a waste of taxpayers money trying to force people to use it. Up north Sinn Fein are using the irish language to rub their opponents up the wrong way and antagonise others.

    Nobody is being forced to use anything. In fact, 'compulsory' is a scaremonger invented by the DUP.

    Nobody was rubbed up the wrong way when May and Varadkar got the nod that a deal was done.


  • #196
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Nobody is being forced to use anything.

    Thin end of the wedge. Here the Irish language was used for political purposes too eg state jobs.
    charlie14 wrote: »
    Today`s headline of Mary Lou McDonald reiterating there would be no re-forming of Stormont`s power-sharing Executive without an Irish Language Act leaves both the Dublin government, and especially the London government (with their DUP partners) between a rock and the proverbial.

    Its pure blackmail on the part of Sinn Fein. Talk about an own goal in the end though.

    There was no hope of getting a deal with Arlene Foster last week when the previous weekend Mary Louu McDonald insulted the DUP leader / brought back nighmare memories for her by shouting the old PIRA slogan they used during terrorist attacks " Up the rebels- tioci ar la" when she and her father were the victims of various PIRA attacks.


  • #197
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Thin end of the wedge. Here the Irish language was used for political purposes too eg state jobs.



    Its pure blackmail on the part of Sinn Fein. Talk about an own goal in the end though.

    There was no hope of getting a deal with Arlene Foster last week when the previous weekend Mary Louu McDonald insulted the DUP leader / brought back nighmare memories for her by shouting the old PIRA slogan they used during terrorist attacks " Up the rebels- tioci ar la" when she and her father were the victims of various PIRA attacks.

    What did Arlene make of Peter Robinson using the same term jokingly?

    Nobody, only our faux outrage brigade in the south, seem bothered by that from ML.

    A deal was done, it is pointless trying to mask that. Two PM's do not hotfoot it to Belfast on the basis of a 'maybe'.

    But the belligerents controlling Arlene said 'Never'.
    Ball is just kicked down the road though. This is only going one way.


  • #198
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What did Arlene make of Peter Robinson using the same term jokingly?

    I do not think Peter Robinson is the leader of a movement or organisation which attempted to murder Arlenes father or attacked her school bus with murderous intent.
    recedite wrote: »
    So NI schools can and do teach Irish to A level standard.
    The British state funds Irish language broadcasting.
    Anybody who wants to learn and speak the language can do so freely.

    Is it really a major inconvenience to shinners that they can't demand to have a court case heard as gaeilge?
    State-funded translators provided for everybody, despite that fact that all involved would be back speaking English again in the pub afterwards. Wouldn't it just be a pointless waste of public money? Jobs for the boys/cousins.

    True enough, and that sums it up well.


  • #199
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    Not really. The amount of people who filled out the census form in Irish was miniscule. Even here in the Republic, according to Bank of Ireland fewer than 00.1% of their customers use the Irish language option on their pass machines. It is a waste of taxpayers money trying to force people to use it. Up north Sinn Fein are using the irish language to rub their opponents up the wrong way and antagonise others.

    Not really? So Irish isn't indigenous to Ireland. Here is a definition of 'indigenous':

    Originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native.

    Tell me, which language is indigenous so?


  • #200
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    I do not think Peter Robinson is the leader of a movement or organisation which attempted to murder Arlenes father or attacked her school bus with murderous intent.



    And Mary Lou had something to do with the attack on Arlene's family?

    An awful lot of other people have to deal with people whose organisations attacked and killed their family members in northern Ireland everyday. There was over 3000 killed and countless others maimed and killed.
    Arlene is not in any hierarchy.


  • #201
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    cycle4fun wrote: »

    Its pure blackmail on the part of Sinn Fein. Talk about an own goal in the end though.

    There was no hope of getting a deal with Arlene Foster last week when the previous weekend Mary Louu McDonald insulted the DUP leader / brought back nighmare memories for her by shouting the old PIRA slogan they used during terrorist attacks " Up the rebels- tioci ar la" when she and her father were the victims of various PIRA attacks.

    More like the ultimate cutting off your nose to spite your face where the DUP have left their on leader most likely having to resign, embarrassed May and Varadkar and virtually assured direct rule where SF willbe granted their ILA by the British government and have the added indignity of have SSM imposed that they have fought tooth and nail to prevent.

    A bit thin skinned would it not be for a politician to get peeved and scupper an agreement over another`s use of a party political slogan would it not.
    Hypocritical even when you consider her own use of words like crocodiles in references to that party.

    The deal being rejected was nothing to do with Foster getting the hump. She was in agreement until the 10 abroad in Westminster got wind of it.


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  • #202
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And Mary Lou had something to do with the attack on Arlene's family?

    She showed her true colours / the mask slipped when she clenched her fist and sneering shouted the old PIRA battle cry " Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".
    charlie14 wrote: »
    until the 10 abroad in Westminster got wind of it.


    Many of the 10 MP's lost friends and families to people who shouted "Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ". Indeed, more than a few unionist politicians were murdered during the troubles.


  • #203
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    She showed her true colours / the mask slipped when she clenched her fist and sneering shouted the old PIRA battle cry " Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".

    She used the slogan the party have used for decades.


  • #204
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    She used the slogan the party have used for decades.

    She used the battle cry of the PIRA "Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".


  • #205
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,589 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    charlie14 wrote: »
    More like the ultimate cutting off your nose to spite your face where the DUP have left their on leader most likely having to resign, embarrassed May and Varadkar and virtually assured direct rule where SF willbe granted their ILA by the British government and have the added indignity of have SSM imposed that they have fought tooth and nail to prevent.

    A bit thin skinned would it not be for a politician to get peeved and scupper an agreement over another`s use of a party political slogan would it not.
    Hypocritical even when you consider her own use of words like crocodiles in references to that party.

    The deal being rejected was nothing to do with Foster getting the hump. She was in agreement until the 10 abroad in Westminster got wind of it.

    Everyone of importance knows the deal was done and like the Brexit, Phase 1 negotiations the 'backroom boys' ordered Arlene to withdraw from it.

    Only a matter of time now, all SF and the others wanting an ILA have to do is wait. Their day will come.


  • #206
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    She used the battle cry of the PIRA "Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".

    Actually, it's 'Tiocfaidh ár lá'. Did you not know that?


  • #207
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    She showed her true colours / the mask slipped when she clenched her fist and sneering shouted the old PIRA battle cry " Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".

    And you do not believe that the DUP showed themselves to be the same bigoted political troglodytes that have attempted to keep "them Taigs" in their place throughout the whole history of Northen Ireland ?


  • #208
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    cycle4fun wrote: »

    Many of the 10 MP's lost friends and families to people who shouted "Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ". Indeed, more than a few unionist politicians were murdered during the troubles.

    So what. It`s not as if unionism has clean hand on that score either.
    Never mind the denial of basic human rights going back through their history of abuse and gerrymandering in northern Ireland


  • #209
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,579 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    cycle4fun wrote: »
    She used the battle cry of the PIRA "Up the rebels, tiocagh an la ".

    So ?
    Are you saying that is the first time Foster heard anyone from SF use that slogan and that is the reason you believe for her back out of the deal ?


  • #210
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Actually, it's 'Tiocfaidh ár lá'. Did you not know that?

    I could not care less how it is spelt, any more than the spelling of a slogan the 9/11 attackers may have used during their attacks.


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  • #211
    cycle4fun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 418 ✭✭cycle4fun


    charlie14 wrote: »
    So ?
    Are you saying that is the first time Foster heard anyone from SF use that slogan
    For some unfortunate people, it was the last words they ever heard. So not appropriate for the leader of a political party to end her speech with. I knew then that was the end of a possible deal the following week. How right I was proved.


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