Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

david75 · 20-02-2018 12:35AM

J C wrote: »

... and making untrue allegations AKA lies, is also against boards rules.

There are three persons in the one God ... but I'm just one person, last time I checked.

Yep. Definitely heard this before. From another account.

J C · 20-02-2018 12:38AM

david75 wrote: »

Yep. Definitely heard this before. From another account.

Could it be the Holy Spirit, indwelling me and other Christians, that you are hearing?

... and calling you to repentance and salvation.

J C · 20-02-2018 12:40AM

david75 wrote: »

Some easy jiggery pokery and digging up ISPs will soon tell it’s own tale.

It will ... and I expect an apology from you when the Boards 'Big Brother' reports on his 'jiggery pokery,' as you call it, with my ISP.

J C · 20-02-2018 12:47AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I dont believe in either so couldnt give a tiny shiney sh/te about them

Doesn't mean God doesn't exist ... and can Save you, if you ask.

J C · 20-02-2018 12:59AM

pilly wrote: »

Wasting your time on this forum. Apparently you're allowed to tell flat out lies in here.

wrote:

Originally Posted by david75
Sudd n and dramatic shifts in language and tone. Sounds like it’s one possibly two poster using multiple accounts throughout the thread.

Yet another thing that you couldn't make up ... and if you did, nobody would believe you.

david75 · 20-02-2018 01:04AM

J C wrote: »

Originally Posted by david75
Thank you. This is what I was just askin about a short while ago.
Sudd n and dramatic shifts in language and tone. Sounds like it’s one possibly two poster using multiple accounts throughout the thread.

Sudden shift in tone and language of posting.
Same user. Multiple accounts.

Have you nothing else to do?

J C · 20-02-2018 01:08AM

david75 wrote: »

Sudden shift in tone and language of posting.
Same user. Multiple accounts.

Have you nothing else to do?

You are 'talking through your hat'.

Can somebody on the Boards put him out of his embarassing misery ... and tell him to stop making a fool of himself ... multiple people on multiple accounts indeed.:eek:

end of the road · 20-02-2018 01:17AM

J C wrote: »

You are 'talking through your hat'.

Can somebody on the Boards put him out of his embarassing misery ... and tell him to stop making a fool of himself ... multiple people on multiple accounts indeed.

just report him. click report on his posts beside the quote button.

david75 · 20-02-2018 01:24AM

Look at that. Timing is everything.

I’ve already reported. Apparently the mod here isn’t that impartial. Let’s see.

Did you know, When Jesus got Magdalene pregnant, he pressured her into an abortion. And she had it. Then he felt guilty for his few remaining days and yet didn’t write about it in his magic book that he never actually wrote at all. But Magdalene had to take the blame and that’s why all those prisons were called the Magdalene laundries, in order to blame her?

A nun told me that. Not even joking.

J C · 20-02-2018 01:30AM

end of the road wrote: »

just report him. click report on his posts beside the quote button.

I'm fascinated by him ... and the others who actually think that I'm using multiple accounts.

He is saying that he has reported me ... so no need for multiple reports about a nonesense.

J C · 20-02-2018 01:41AM

david75 wrote: »

Did you know, When Jesus got Magdalene pregnant, he pressured her into an abortion. And she had it. Then he felt guilty for his few remaining days and yet didn’t write about it in his magic book that he never actually wrote at all. But Magdalene had to take the blame and that’s why all those prisons were called the Magdalene laundries, in order to blame her?

A nun told me that. Not even joking.

You are really excelling yourself with concocted theories this evening, David.

Multiple versions of me ... and Jesus aborting Mary Magdalene ... whatever next!!

... abortion on demand in Ireland ... ???

david75 · 20-02-2018 01:44AM

J C wrote: »

You are really excelling yourself with concocted theories this evening, David.

Multiple versions of me ... and Jesus aborting Mary Magdalene ... whatever next!!

... abortion on demand in Ireland ... ???

It’s a FACT

Turtwig · 20-02-2018 01:47AM

Mod: if you believe a poster to be sock puppet DO NOT make the accusations in thread. Report the post. Any further insinuations on personal character in thread will be deleted. And cards and bans may follow.

J C wrote: »

As you leave, I would like to give you a parting thought ...

... there is a way of terminating a pregnancy ... without killing the child ... its called giving birth !!!

J C wrote: »

The choice of life or death is now being laid before everyone ... and I humbly ask them to choose life.

I can do no more.

J C wrote: »

... I'd call that good advice if she is saying that she doesn't want anything in her womb, in the first place.:)

The 'snowflake' generation really should not take themselves so seriously.:)

J C wrote: »

God loves you nonetheless ... and Jesus Christ came that all might be Saved ... but He won't force you.

J C wrote: »

Doesn't mean God doesn't exist ... and can Save you, if you ask.

These are not constructive posts.
Please do not post like this in this thread again.

Any more will be deleted and a ban may follow.

pilly · 20-02-2018 03:09AM

J C wrote:

... and making untrue allegations, is also against boards rules.

Except when it's EOTR making them?

Achasanai · 20-02-2018 08:27AM

J C wrote: »

We don't have the right to kill them, whether they go straight to Heaven ... or cease to exist, as Atheists, for example, would have us believe.

I think the weight of evidence might suggest otherwise, JC. As I mentioned previously (in a failed attempt to get this thread back to what it's about: whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion) the Bible strangely makes no explicit command against abortion. And the Bible - particularly the OT - is a fairly weighty tome, and much of it deals with complex legal orders.

Then you have the NT, which underlines that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. It's why missions were set up to convert the 'heathen' Jews, Muslims, and pagans. Without Jesus Christ, and knowing him, they were damned for all eternity.

If a fetus can't know Jesus Christ, it surely means its damned too? It would seem cruel of a God to damn all these 'unborn children' (although, let's face it, he has previous).

I don't think we can really say for certain whether God sees an 'unborn child' or a fetus.

Nick Park · 20-02-2018 09:53AM

Achasanai wrote: »

Then you have the NT, which underlines that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. It's why missions were set up to convert the 'heathen' Jews, Muslims, and pagans. Without Jesus Christ, and knowing him, they were damned for all eternity.

If a fetus can't know Jesus Christ, it surely means its damned too? It would seem cruel of a God to damn all these 'unborn children' (although, let's face it, he has previous).

What you post here is certainly not what Christians believe. I'm not going to drag this thread away off-topic by addressing your misunderstanding of Christian beliefs (both historical and contemporary) but suffice to say that in my 30+ years as a Christian leader, out of the hundreds of thousands of Christians I've engaged with of all denominations, I've never met a single one who believed what you claim here.

There have been a number of threads in this forum over the years where Christians have explained why they believe, on biblical grounds, that young children go straight to the presence of Jesus when they die.

recedite · 20-02-2018 11:21AM

Achasanai wrote: »

I think the weight of evidence might suggest otherwise, JC. As I mentioned previously (in a failed attempt to get this thread back to what it's about: whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion) the Bible strangely makes no explicit command against abortion. And the Bible - particularly the OT - is a fairly weighty tome, and much of it deals with complex legal orders.

Then you have the NT, which underlines that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. It's why missions were set up to convert the 'heathen' Jews, Muslims, and pagans. Without Jesus Christ, and knowing him, they were damned for all eternity.

If a fetus can't know Jesus Christ, it surely means its damned too? It would seem cruel of a God to damn all these 'unborn children' (although, let's face it, he has previous).

I don't think we can really say for certain whether God sees an 'unborn child' or a fetus.

Well that is perhaps the traditional position of the unreformed churches. Hence we had a historical situation in Ireland of unbaptised infants being buried outside official graveyards.
However that position does not distinguish between the unborn and a new-born unbaptised infant. Or between those and the adult heathen. Nor does it suggest that any of these can be killed at will by a Christian. Nor does it suggest that they are all damned. It simply suggests that they do not automatically acquire salvation. Perhaps the suggestion is that they would end up in a kind of limbo if they died in that unbaptised state, with the possibility of salvation if enough prayers were said for them by the living.

Nick Park · 20-02-2018 11:24AM

david75 wrote: »

Thank you. This is what I was just askin about a short while ago.
Sudd n and dramatic shifts in language and tone. Sounds like it’s one possibly two poster using multiple accounts throughout the thread.

Which is against boards rules I believe.

Just to alleviate your paranoia.

The two posters you mention are prolific posters round here. One is a fervently dogmatic Catholic, the other is not a Catholic at all. A bit like confusing a leopard and a dalmation because they both have spots.

Delirium · 20-02-2018 11:34AM

david75 wrote: »

What a load of baloney.

Oh. Wait.

Yeah I think you’ll find the almost entire majority of people voting in this will be turned off completely by peoplexlike yourself pushing their god bothering bible crap on them.

Good luck with that.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Well they used to go to "purgatory " but that has been changed now because people statyed to see through the veil of lies.

MOD NOTE

Please remember you're posting in the Christianity forum and it isn't appropriate to refer to the bible/Christianity is such a way.

Thanks for your attention.

Delirium · 20-02-2018 11:37AM

Nick Park wrote: »

Just to alleviate your paranoia.

The two posters you mention are prolific posters round here. One is a fervently dogmatic Catholic, the other is not a Catholic at all. A bit like confusing a leopard and a dalmation because they both have spots.

MOD NOTE

@everyone: Turtwig already posted this in relation to the post you're responding to so it would be appreciated if that tangent could be left alone.

Mod: if you believe a poster to be sock puppet DO NOT make the accusations in thread. Report the post. Any further insinuations on personal character in thread will be deleted. And cards and bans may follow.

Thanks for your attention.

J C · 20-02-2018 09:58PM

Achasanai wrote: »

I think the weight of evidence might suggest otherwise, JC. As I mentioned previously (in a failed attempt to get this thread back to what it's about: whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion) the Bible strangely makes no explicit command against abortion. And the Bible - particularly the OT - is a fairly weighty tome, and much of it deals with complex legal orders.

The Old Testament treats abortion the same way it treats all killing of innocent Human Beings ... starting with the Sixth Commandment, which was given directly by God ... Thou shall not kill, is just as applicable to the killing of the unborn as to the born ... and this is proven by the Mosaic Law in Exodus 21:22-25, which treats the serious injury or the killing of an unborn child with the exact same punishment, at the time, as for seriously injuring or killing an adult i.e. eye for eye and life for life.

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
... and Jeremiah 1:5 shows that God takes a personal interest and knows everyone from conception (before I formed you in the womb) ... and unborn children (before you were born) ... so abortion is 'a slap in the face' to God ... and His plans to prosper all of His Creation.

Jeremiah 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Achasanai wrote: »

Then you have the NT, which underlines that salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. It's why missions were set up to convert the 'heathen' Jews, Muslims, and pagans. Without Jesus Christ, and knowing him, they were damned for all eternity.

Missions were set up to bring the Good News of Salvation to a fallen Humanity ... in the present life.
It was obviously impossible to reach everyone, up to now, ... and therefore many people, unfortunately live and die without ever hearing this Good News ... and being given the opportunity to live their lives as Christians.
Of course, in justice, this doesn't preclude them being given the opportunity to be Saved ... when they die.

Achasanai wrote: »

If a fetus can't know Jesus Christ, it surely means its damned too? It would seem cruel of a God to damn all these 'unborn children' (although, let's face it, he has previous).

It would indeed ... and that is why, as a God of justice and mercy, He doesn't damn anybody ... and desires that all, who want will be Saved ... and that logically includes all who die, who have never had the opportunity to be Saved in this life.

1 Timothy 2:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

Achasanai wrote: »

I don't think we can really say for certain whether God sees an 'unborn child' or a fetus.

These are technical terms ... God sees them all simply as Human Beings.

david75 · 20-02-2018 10:04PM

There’s a new international version of the bible??
Does the new international version condemn slavery, beating your wife/daughter if they displease you, etc instead of supporting it?

Who wrote this new version? Better yet who edited it?

Bet it still has no mention of hating gays or abortion.

J C · 20-02-2018 10:16PM

david75 wrote: »

There’s a new international version of the bible??

The New Internation Version (NIV) is a version of the Bible that uses modern English, rather than, for example, the old English, of the King James Version (KJV).

david75 wrote: »

Does the new international version condemn slavery, beating your wife/daughter if they displease you, etc instead of supporting it?

Who wrote this new version? Better yet who edited it?

Bet it still has no mention of hating gays or abortion.

The Mosaic Laws were tough laws for tough times ... for the Jewish people.

The Mosaic Laws have been replaced with grace, in the current Church Era.

Achasanai · 20-02-2018 10:19PM

Nick Park wrote: »

What you post here is certainly not what Christians believe. I'm not going to drag this thread away off-topic by addressing your misunderstanding of Christian beliefs (both historical and contemporary) but suffice to say that in my 30+ years as a Christian leader, out of the hundreds of thousands of Christians I've engaged with of all denominations, I've never met a single one who believed what you claim here.

There have been a number of threads in this forum over the years where Christians have explained why they believe, on biblical grounds, that young children go straight to the presence of Jesus when they die.

Well, it was a reference to JC suggesting that fetuses go straight to heaven, so I guess the suggestion of being brought off topic should be brought to him/her. Although the thread is specifically regarding whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion, so I think that it is somewhat on-topic.

I'm surprised that you have worked for so long with so many Christians without having come across this viewpoint. You must never have worked with a Roman Catholic before, or with some of a particular evangelical viewpoint. I grew up in a Roman Catholic background, and have worked with some in the Reformed churches, and I can guarantee you that it is a view held, in a small - but significant - minority in the Reformed churches, and is (or at least was until recently) a viewpoint firmly held by the Roman Catholic Church.

That young children/fetuses go straight to heaven requires some serious examination of salvation through knowledge of Christ. I'm sure it can be done, but it requires some serious legwork, as well as ignoring a large portion of orthodox theology.

recedite wrote: »

Well that is perhaps the traditional position of the unreformed churches. Hence we had a historical situation in Ireland of unbaptised infants being buried outside official graveyards.
However that position does not distinguish between the unborn and a new-born unbaptised infant. Or between those and the adult heathen. Nor does it suggest that any of these can be killed at will by a Christian. Nor does it suggest that they are all damned. It simply suggests that they do not automatically acquire salvation. Perhaps the suggestion is that they would end up in a kind of limbo if they died in that unbaptised state, with the possibility of salvation if enough prayers were said for them by the living.

I didn't suggest it meant being able to kill at will. Again, it was a reference to a previous poster suggesting that aborted fetuses go straight to heaven.

J C wrote: »

The Old Testament treats abortion the same way it treats all killing of innocent Human Beings ... starting with the Sixth Commandment, which was given directly by God ... Thou shall not kill, is just as applicable to the killing of the unborn as to the born ... and this is proven by the Mosaic Law in Exodus 21:22-25, which treats the serious injury or the killing of an unborn child with the exact same punishment, at the time, as for seriously injuring or killing an adult i.e. eye for eye and life for life.

But doesn't mention it explicitly.

J C wrote: »

Exodus 21:22-25 New International Version (NIV)
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[a] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
... and Jeremiah 1:5 shows that God takes a personal interest and knows everyone from conception (before I formed you in the womb) ... and unborn children (before you were born) ... so abortion is 'a slap in the face' to God ... and His plans to prosper all of His Creation.

So, we have no specific injunction against abortion, which is my point. Also, my Hebrew is somewhat rusty, but is the serious injury referring to the pregnant woman or the fetus? If only the Bible was more clear on abortion. It was around back then, but it isn't explicitly condemned. Again, a Christian can reflect on this and make a decision with regards to the forthcoming referendum. But it's not black and white whether he or she should vote for or against.

J C wrote: »

Jeremiah 1:5 New International Version (NIV)
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

This one line - about Jeremiah specifically - is proof not of his nature as a prophet but of God's recognition of a fetus being a human being? Again, the Bible doesn't make specific reference to either a fetus as a human being. But if we accept what you're saying, it would also suggest that we are human beings before we are conceived. That opens a whole other can of words.

J C wrote: »

Missions were set up to bring the Good News of Salvation to a fallen Humanity ... in the present life.
It was obviously impossible to reach everyone, up to now, ... and therefore many people, unfortunately live and die without ever hearing this Good News ... and being given the opportunity to live their lives as Christians.
Of course, in justice, this doesn't preclude them being given the opportunity to be Saved ... when they die.

It would indeed ... and that is why, as a God of justice and mercy, He doesn't damn anybody ... and desires that all, who want will be Saved ... and that logically includes all who die, who have never had the opportunity to be Saved in this life.

So, we can go through life without knowing and accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour, and still be saved?

J C wrote: »

1 Timothy 2:1-5 New International Version (NIV)
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

These are technical terms ... God sees them all as Human Beings ... in need of Salvation.

This is a call to go out and preach the Word, to save people through knowledge of Christ, not that they can gain salvation after they die.

david75 · 20-02-2018 10:23PM

Thank you for that. We all got schooled and properly. Much appreciated.

J C · 20-02-2018 10:53PM

Achasanai wrote: »

Well, it was a reference to JC suggesting that fetuses go straight to heaven, so I guess the suggestion of being brought off topic should be brought to him/her. Although the thread is specifically regarding whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion, so I think that it is somewhat on-topic.

I'm surprised that you have worked for so long with so many Christians without having come across this viewpoint. You must never have worked with a Roman Catholic before, or with some of a particular evangelical viewpoint. I grew up in a Roman Catholic background, and have worked with some in the Reformed churches, and I can guarantee you that it is a view held, in a small - but significant - minority in the Reformed churches, and is (or at least was until recently) a viewpoint firmly held by the Roman Catholic Church.

Nick was referring to your conflation of the Great Commission ... to go forth and make desciples of all Nations, with the Salvation of unborn children and other Human Beings that never got the chance to be Saved, in this life.

Achasanai wrote: »

That young children/fetuses go straight to heaven requires some serious examination of salvation through knowledge of Christ. I'm sure it can be done, but it requires some serious legwork, as well as ignoring a large portion of orthodox theology.

God is a God of justice and mercy ... who desires that all should be Saved ... including unbelievers ... and unborn children.

Achasanai wrote: »

I didn't suggest it meant being able to kill at will.

... Ok ... but killing at will is going to be allowed, if the 8th is removed ... and 12 week unrestricted abortion is introduced.

wrote:

Originally Posted by J C
22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

Achasanai
So, we have no specific injunction against abortion, which is my point. Also, my Hebrew is somewhat rusty, but is the serious injury referring to the pregnant woman or the fetus?.

There is actually. The above scripture is referring to violence directed at a pregnant woman that results in the serious injury or death of an unborn child ... which would also encompass procured abortion.

Achasanai wrote: »

If only the Bible was more clear on abortion. It was around back then, but it isn't explicitly condemned. Again, a Christian can reflect on this and make a decision with regards to the forthcoming referendum. But it's not black and white whether he or she should vote for or against.

Thou shall not kill, is pretty clear ... and the Commandments, being given directly by God, apply to all Christians.

Achasanai wrote: »

So, we can go through life without knowing and accepting Christ as our Lord and Saviour, and still be saved?

It would seem so ... but by not being Saved at the earliest opportunity, you would lose out on the benefits of being a Christian, for as long as you remained un-Saved.

J C · 20-02-2018 10:57PM

david75 wrote: »

Thank you for that. We all got schooled and properly. Much appreciated.

... and did you learn anything from being 'schooled properly', as you call it?

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-02-2018 11:04PM

david75 wrote: »

There’s a new international version of the bible??
Does the new international version condemn slavery, beating your wife/daughter if they displease you, etc instead of supporting it?

Who wrote this new version? Better yet who edited it?

Bet it still has no mention of hating gays or abortion.

Perhaps you should read it for yourself. That way you can't accuse anyone of trying to deceive you.

Btw you've still not backed up your claim that a foetus isn't human. Do you have any reply on that one?

david75 · 20-02-2018 11:04PM

J C wrote: »

Nick was referring to your conflation of the Great Commission ... to go forth and make desciples of all Nations, with the Salvation of unborn children and other Human Beings that never got the chance to be Saved, in this life.

God is a God of justice and mercy ... who desires that all should be Saved ... including unbelievers ... and unborn children.

... Ok ... but killing at will is going to be allowed, if the 8th is removed ... and 12 week unrestricted abortion is introduced.

There is actually. The above scripture is referring to violence directed at a pregnant woman that results in the serious injury or death of an unborn child ... which would also encompass procured abortion.

Thou shall not kill, is pretty clear ... and the Commandments, being given directly by God, apply to all Christians.

It would seem so ... but by not being Saved at the earliest opportunity, you would lose out on the benefits of being a Christian, for as long as you remained un-Saved.

What god allows a new life be doomed to die in the womb before it ls born? What so called Christian would force any mother to give birth to a baby that would die moments later because of that god given physical flaw or incurable sickness only so she has to watch it take its last breath moments later?

That’s a merciful god? Seriously?? That’s Christian?
Forcibly imposing suffering on a life that cannot survive and Imposing that suffering forever on a mother that has to live with that memory?

I’d like to believe God wouldnt do that. It’s his hysterical myopic followers doing that.

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-02-2018 11:07PM

david75 wrote: »

What god allows a new life be doomed to die in the womb before it ls born? What so called Christian would force any mother to give birth to a baby that would die moments later because of that god given physical flaw or incurable sickness only so she has to watch it take its last breath moments later?

That’s a merciful god? Seriously?? That’s Christian?
Forcibly imposing suffering on a life that cannot survive and Imposing that suffering forever on a mother that has to live with that memory?

I’d like to believe God wouldnt do that. It’s his hysterical myopic followers doing that.

Granted I'm myopic.i wear glasses to correct it but hysterical I am not.
Any answer to my question above?

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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