Donald Trump officially ranked by presidential historians as the worst president ever

BuilderPlumber · 20-02-2018 01:34AM

Not defending him or not a fan of him, but we will have to wait and see with Trump. So far, he has shown himself as a very poor president and a weak leader hiding behind bluster. A lot of other presidents also got off to a very shaky and iffy start and turned out to be good later on. Reagan for instance. His first term was abysmal, full of cowboy like insults to the USSR and other 'enemies'. His talk was not all that far removed from Trump. His second term saw a more moderate problem solver who could do a deal and made peace with the USSR. Trump's legacy is still all to play for. Will he be a one term freak show or will he actually grow into the role and moderate his agenda and unite America? Can he go from his current anti-Iran and anti-North Korea rhetoric and turn around and make serious peace with them akin to Reagan? Time will tell if Trump is out of his depth or if he has more to offer than bluster and confused rhetoric.

Edgarfrndly · 20-02-2018 01:35AM

Trump is the worst president in the history of modern US and public opinion polls support that. He's the lowest rated president in recorded history. The guy is an embarrassment and is grossly incompetent.

BuilderPlumber · 20-02-2018 01:49AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Well arguably he didn't get the US out of Iraq, do you realize the 2011 withdrawl date was signed by George W Bush and all Obama did was simply follow it? In any case, after he pulled them out he put them back in again in 2014.

Also in Afghanistan, Obama escalated the number of troops from 33,000 (a then all time high under Bush) to 100,000. Unsurprisingly the death toll of US troops in Afghanistan by president:

Afghanistan (2,406)
Obama - 1751
Bush - 641
Trump - 14

Aside the the Iran nuclear deal, Obama's foreign policy legacy was fairly mixed, currently I'd give him a C+/B- as the Iran deal saves him, but if that deal falls apart then he's barely holding onto that C grade, foreign policy wise he was quite forgettable, he just looks good compared to Bush and Cheney.

The problem with a lot of presidents is they inherit a lot of problems from their predecessors. Each new president says he will do things differently but in reality, it is continuity no matter how much they try to say otherwise. Was Bill Clinton really better than GW Bush? Those who give out about Bush's wars seem to forget that Clinton also went to war against Serbia and Iraq. Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 showed 100% continuity on most issues. Obama left some good legacies for sure but the problems that dogged Bush continued on. Trump for all his talk has not really changed anything and probably won't. Again, some forget that Obama had his wars too and policy on Afghanistan that Bush 2 and Clinton started out stayed the same.

I have always opposed the Iraq war and have mixed views on the one in Afghanistan but generally would prefer to see no wars. But when something like 9/11 happens, it is hard to not go to war. One can argue if these wars were justified (Iraq no, Afghanistan arguably) but America is stuck with them and their consequences and as much as a president may want to move away from them, they can't. As all can be done is the new president should learn from the mistakes of his predecessors.

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 01:59AM

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Was Bill Clinton really better than GW Bush?

Clinton didn't invade another country under false pretenses, killing 5,000 of his own troops, instigating torture, operating Gitmo, creating a vacuum for the rise of ISIS.

All post war presidents have had very questionable foreign policy legacies, but Bush really was off the chart in terms of recklessness.

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 02:03AM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Trump is the worst president in the history of modern US and public opinion polls support that. He's the lowest rated president in recorded history. The guy is an embarrassment and is grossly incompetent.

Opinion polls also rank Obama as one of the worst American presidents.

Trump 40%
Obama 27%
Nixon 6%
Bush 4%

https://today.yougov.com/news/2018/02/16/ranking-presidents-presidents-day/

But honestly a lot of Americans don't know sh!t about their own history, neither Obama or Trump are the worst president ever, partisan hyperbole overdrive.

rossie1977 · 20-02-2018 02:17AM

The fact that Republican scholars rank Trump bottom five says it all.

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 02:20AM

rossie1977 wrote: »

The fact that Republican scholars rank Trump bottom five says it all.

Also says how completely out of touch they are with the majority of their fellow Republican voters given he has an 85% approval rating currently amongst Republicans.

BuilderPlumber · 20-02-2018 02:43AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Clinton didn't invade another country under false pretenses, killing 5,000 of his own troops, instigating torture, operating Gitmo, creating a vacuum for the rise of ISIS.

All post war presidents have had very questionable foreign policy legacies, but Bush really was off the chart in terms of recklessness.

That is true. I feel that this reckless foreign policy was something that was accelerating for decades slowed by Vietnam but by the Bush/Clinton/Bush era, back in force at full speed. America saw itself as the policeman of the world and Bush 2 armed with 9/11 and a quest for revenge, went further than the rest. America still believes it can dictate to the world and while Bush 2 was the most reckless, the same dubious foreign policy has been there before and after him.

rossie1977 · 20-02-2018 02:45AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Also says how completely out of touch they are with the majority of their fellow Republican voters given he has an 85% approval rating currently amongst Republicans.

Approval among the current generation of Republican voters means nothing. Bush Jr had sky high approval during his first term and was considered the second coming by many on the right yet you couldn't find someone to admit they were a Bush supporter come 2007.

If Republican historians have Trump bottom five you know he is pretty bad. Clinton was impeached for far less. The same reasons for impeaching Nixon are stronger for Trump http://watergate.info/impeachment/articles-of-impeachment

Edgarfrndly · 20-02-2018 03:03AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Opinion polls also rank Obama as one of the worst American presidents.

Trump 40%
Obama 27%
Nixon 6%
Bush 4%

https://today.yougov.com/news/2018/02/16/ranking-presidents-presidents-day/

But honestly a lot of Americans don't know sh!t about their own history, neither Obama or Trump are the worst president ever, partisan hyperbole overdrive.

Whataboutery.

Trump's approval average (combined approval and disapproval) is 38.5 - The lowest in recorded history. Obama's was 47.9, although he did leave office with a 59% approval rating. They aren't even remotely comparable.

Walter Mittys Brother · 20-02-2018 03:07AM

All the polls before the only one that counts, the election, said Hilary would win.................

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 03:18AM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

Whataboutery.

Trump's approval average (combined approval and disapproval) is 38.5 - The lowest in recorded history. Obama's was 47.9, although he did leave office with a 59% approval rating. They aren't even remotely comparable.

Trumps approval rating is currently rising to be fair, early 40s now.

Obama by the 2010 mid terms was at 45%, we'll see where Trump is later this year in comparison.

47-48% was fairly mediocre for Obama overall. Clinton averaged 61% in his second term, Obama only 46% in his second term, huge gap.

Peregrinus · 20-02-2018 03:36AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Trumps approval rating is currently rising to be fair, early 40s now.

Well, yes, but these things are relative. Trump's average-across-the-polls approval is now 41.4%, which on the one hand is a modest rise from where it was recently, but on the other hand is still, by a substantial margin, the worst approval rating of any President at this point in his first term since records began. Trump has held that record fairly consistently since he was inaugurated, and as we're now well into the second season of Trump! The Man! The Hair! The Ego!, I think a pattern has been fairly firmly consolidated. I'm not expecting this to change any time soon.

Edgarfrndly · 20-02-2018 03:38AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Trumps approval rating is currently rising to be fair, early 40s now.

Obama by the 2010 mid terms was at 45%, we'll see where Trump is later this year in comparison.

47-48% was fairly mediocre for Obama overall. Clinton averaged 61% in his second term, Obama only 46% in his second term, huge gap.

What rise? He's been hanging around the mid 30's to very low 40's since last year - ebbing up and down a few points here and there. There's no upward trend.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx

http://polling.reuters.com/#poll/CP3_2/

Peregrinus · 20-02-2018 03:51AM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

What rise? He's been hanging around the mid 30's to very low 40's since last year - ebbing up and down a few points here and there. There's no upward trend.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx

http://polling.reuters.com/#poll/CP3_2/

Well, there's a rise in the sense that a month ago he was at 39.5%, and now he's at 41.4%. So, on the one hand it's a rise. On the other hand, it's well within the kind of fluctuations that we expect; it's hardly large enough to point to a trend. He's had rises of this magnitude before, but they haven't endured.

(My figures are from fivethirtyeight.com; they represent an average of all the major approval polls. Figures from other sources may be compiled differently and may differ slightly, but the overall picture isn't going to be very different. Trump is remarkably and persistently unpopular and, as yet, there is no sign of this changing.)

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 04:05AM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

What rise? He's been hanging around the mid 30's to very low 40's since last year - ebbing up and down a few points here and there. There's no upward trend.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx

http://polling.reuters.com/#poll/CP3_2/

His current average of 41-42% is the highest since May 2017, does that still suck? Yes, but remember as I say Obama was at 45% by mid 2010.

Edgarfrndly · 20-02-2018 04:38AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

His current average of 41-42% is the highest since May 2017, does that still suck? Yes, but remember as I say Obama was at 45% by mid 2010.

41% average is still 3 points lower than this time last year. He has yet to make a substantial change in his approval rating. The American public simply do not think he's doing a good job, and they are right. I don't know how anyone could support him at this stage, he's downright embarrassing.

Billy86 · 20-02-2018 10:51AM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Trump created over 2 million jobs in his first year, if he keeps that up for 8 years (no guarantee of course, and certainly no guarantee he'll get a 2nd term). That would mean he would've created 16-17 million jobs.

That would be the second highest ever in US history behind Bill Clinton. George W Bush only created 1 million.

If he gets those sort economic figures then he's absolutely nowhere near America's worst president, no matter how much of a twat he acts on twitter. This shouldn't be a personality contest.

I attribute the last year’s economic record as a legacy of Obama’s years. also, there are many aspects to a presidency that I value. Economic performance is just one aspect.

It may have been mostly Obamas work last year (something I agree on) but Trump still didn't rock the boat to his credit (and if it's not broken why fix it?) and it has continued on and a rocky week or so on the stock market looks to have been corrected, which I guess could be called a challenge of sorts. They might not be out of the woods on that, but it has held up so far.

Billy86 · 20-02-2018 11:08AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

He's doing his best to rocket his way to it (possibly quite literally!) but it's too early and he's been too useless at doing his job effectively to be called the worst.

I'd still put Bush below him even from this century - he took over an incredibly stable economy when the world was in a very calm state, dismissed the security staff that had been there across several administrations before him, ignored 9/11 warnings, and after that happened he launched the chaos into the world that we're still dealing with over 15 years later. Then as his final trick, he gave us the biggest recession the world had seen in 80 years.

Its amazing how Bush is only 30th, nearer the middle than he is to the bottom.

I mean what positives came out of Bush's administration that makes him better than 14 other presidents? I'm struggling to think of any.

I've heard he quietly did a tonne of good work towards African aid but even then have not looked into it much, after that it's hard to think of much of anything.

I'd recommend a podcast called 'the dollop' for their episode on Iraq, it's somewhat lighthearted (one guy presenting is a comedian, the other a journalist/comedian) because I had no idea the level of f***ed up that was. Leaving small teams of 20 somethings in charge if entire region or sectors who fixated in getting high speed internet into schools that didn't have computers, books or working electricity was one of the more memorable examples.

Billy86 · 20-02-2018 11:12AM

Mutant z wrote: »

BTW both Bush and Obama have helped to light the ME on fire which has led to the rise of Isis a policy which would have continued to happen under Clinton so spare me this worst president bs Trump is more serious about destroying Isis than any of his predecessors.

Its continued under Trump as well, so that favorite cannard from 2016 is out the window. Drone strikes have ramped up hugely under him too, but the same outlets obsessed with them Teo years ago don't seem to have even the slightest interest for about 13 months now.

brainfreeze · 20-02-2018 11:23AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Well arguably he didn't get the US out of Iraq, do you realize the 2011 withdrawl date was signed by George W Bush and all Obama did was simply follow it? In any case, after he pulled them out he put them back in again in 2014.

Also in Afghanistan, Obama escalated the number of troops from 33,000 (a then all time high under Bush) to 100,000. Unsurprisingly the death toll of US troops in Afghanistan by president:

Afghanistan (2,406)
Obama - 1751
Bush - 641
Trump - 14

Aside the the Iran nuclear deal, Obama's foreign policy legacy was fairly mixed, currently I'd give him a C+/B- as the Iran deal saves him, but if that deal falls apart then he's barely holding onto that C grade, foreign policy wise he was quite forgettable, he just looks good compared to Bush and Cheney.

Ok, I'm not debating anything else.

I'm saying 5000 troops in Iraq is nothing when they have 35,000 in Germany. I'm saying that is not an argument, America always have troops in bases.

Saying they never left Iraq because there is 5000 troops in the bases, is like saying Germany has been occupied by America since WW2 considering they have 6900% more troops in Germany than they do in Iraq. Both statements would be false. It's a nonsense argument.

There is plenty to criticise Obama about, that is not one of them.

SharpshooterTom · 20-02-2018 11:46AM

brainfreeze wrote: »

Ok, I'm not debating anything else.

I'm saying 5000 troops in Iraq is nothing when they have 35,000 in Germany. I'm saying that is not an argument, America always have troops in bases.

Saying they never left Iraq because there is 5000 troops in the bases, is like saying Germany has been occupied by America since WW2 considering they have 6900% more troops in Germany than they do in Iraq. Both statements would be false. It's a nonsense argument.

There is plenty to criticise Obama about, that is not one of them.

I'm not criticizing Obama over Iraq, the invasion and the subsequent rise of ISIS, all that lies at the hands of George W Bush. All I'm suggesting is whether or not it should be seen as some major triumph for Obama legacy's to reduce the number of troops given most the draw down of US troops and exit date came from George W Bush.

brainfreeze · 20-02-2018 11:58AM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

I'm not criticizing Obama over Iraq, the invasion and the subsequent rise of ISIS, all that lies at the hands of George W Bush. All I'm suggesting is whether or not it should be seen as some major triumph for Obama legacy's to reduce the number of troops given most the draw down of US troops and exit date came from George W Bush.

Aaah! I get you now.

Vladimir Poontang · 20-02-2018 12:18PM

If there was an election in the morning he'd be re-elected

People still putting faith in polls and a hysterical media that were all wrong

What you see on TV or on websites like Huffpost is just reflective of a hysterical left in complete and utter meltdown

Fox News reflects the Republican establishment (Bush family) who hate Trump.

The silent majority still love him thought.

When he wins a second term the usual suspects, left and right, will be crying that they never saw it coming.

Trump is viewed more favourably than the media and the senate, remember that.

Billy86 · 20-02-2018 01:11PM

Vladimir Poontang wrote: »

Fox News reflects the Republican establishment (Bush family) who hate Trump.

If you think FOX News are against Trump, there's no point discussing the topic.

rossie1977 · 20-02-2018 02:54PM

It's the little things that matter

https://twitter.com/dabeard/status/965770195481583618

https://twitter.com/lrn2bfreee/status/965863430669430784

WinnyThePoo · 20-02-2018 03:06PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

It's the little things that matter

https://twitter.com/dabeard/status/965770195481583618

https://twitter.com/lrn2bfreee/status/965863430669430784

Yea , but Obama

Laois_Man · 20-02-2018 03:53PM

Edgarfrndly wrote: »

41% average is still 3 points lower than this time last year. He has yet to make a substantial change in his approval rating. The American public simply do not think he's doing a good job, and they are right. I don't know how anyone could support him at this stage, he's downright embarrassing.

The very last opinion poll before the 2016 election had him at 35.69%

https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/org//reporting/0B29GVb5ISrT0TGk1TW5tVF9Ed2M/page/GsS

Why have people still not realized that these pollsters are not reaching significant numbers of people who make up the Trump voter demographic?

Peregrinus · 20-02-2018 04:08PM

Laois_Man wrote: »

The very last opinion poll before the 2016 election had him at 35.69%

https://datastudio.google.com/u/0/org//reporting/0B29GVb5ISrT0TGk1TW5tVF9Ed2M/page/GsS

Why have people still not realized that these pollsters are not reaching significant numbers of people who make up the Trump voter demographic?

The very last opinion poll had him at 35.69% and Hillary at only slightly more - 38.03%. And those figures both have a margin of error of 0.65%, meaning that Trump's support may have been as high as 36.24%, and Hillary as low as 37.38%. And in fact Hillary won the popular vote by a margin of 2.1%, which is well within the range predicted by that poll. So there's no reason at all to think that the poll was "not reaching significant numbers of people who make up the Trump voter demographic". Just as there is no reason to think that the presidential approval polls are wrong.

Laois_Man · 20-02-2018 04:17PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The very last opinion poll had him at 35.69% and Hillary at only slightly more - 38.03%. And those figures both have a margin of error of 0.65%, meaning that Trump's support may have been as high as 36.24%, and Hillary as low as 37.38%. And in fact Hillary won the popular vote by a margin of 2.1%, which is well within the range predicted by that poll. So there's no reason at all to think that the poll was "not reaching significant numbers of people who make up the Trump voter demographic". Just as there is no reason to think that the presidential approval polls are wrong.

What are you talking about? Trump got 46.1% of the popular vote on election day - almost 10.5% above what that poll said! There's no reason to think if it was re-election day tomorrow, it would be any different

Donald Trump officially ranked by presidential historians as the worst president ever

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