The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

david75 · 20-02-2018 01:01AM

The PLC bots are becoming blatantly obvious at this stage.

Same circular nonsensical points, endless nimbyism, little grasp of what the referendum is actually about and knock out blow, Nobody in the real world has even used the word fornication for about 20 years.

Annasopra · 20-02-2018 01:01AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

No
We have a gay man marrying his straight best friend in order to avoid inheritance tax. It could happen with a straight couple and could have happened with a gay civil partnered couple. There is no experimental mode. There is no fraud. There is no problem. Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

JDD · 20-02-2018 01:03AM

Andrew I don’t know how to quote your post on my phone, but given that fornication can’t occur inside a marriage, does that mean a married woman could obtain an abortion?

2wsxcde3 · 20-02-2018 01:06AM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No proof then, just as I thought.
It’s ok to have an opinion but you can’t go around claiming everyone is riding all around them as fact. It isn’t true.

I didn't say everyone is riding all around them. I said young people feel under pressure to give the impression they are having sex, or at the very least to give the impression that they have had sex at some point in their lives already. That's the default position young people have to take nowadays.

Annasopra · 20-02-2018 01:07AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

The "freedom" is just an illusion. Are young people free to say they intend to wait until marriage to have sex? No they are not. They are immediately looked upon by their piers as being weird (the same piers that have been brainwashed by the media and don't realize it).

There is no freedom when it comes to sex for young people. You have to do things the way other people do it, the way dictated by the media and the left. And that means you are weird unless you are having sex.

Your McCarthyite reds under the bed stuff is very odd.

Orion · 20-02-2018 01:09AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

“Fornication” is a term for extra-martial sex.

To answer your question, a woman being forced into motherhood is the lesser of two evils compared with the killing of an unborn child.

If women (and men) want to fornicate, they must accept the possibility of a baby being conceived.

Abortion is a “get out of jail free” card that neither the male nor the female protaganists should be allowed.

So what about a married couple who don't want children? No contraception is 100% effective.

What about a woman who's raped? Has she fornicated despite it being forced on her?

Orion · 20-02-2018 01:11AM

david75 wrote: »

The PLC bots are becoming blatantly obvious at this stage.

Same circular nonsensical points, endless nimbyism, little grasp of what the referendum is actually about and knock out blow, Nobody in the real world has even used the word fornication for about 20 years.

Except for Michelle Mulherin.

http://www.thejournal.ie/td-fornication-most-likely-cause-of-unwanted-pregnancies-422895-Apr2012/

Orion · 20-02-2018 01:11AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No
We have a gay man marrying his straight best friend in order to avoid inheritance tax. It could happen with a straight couple and could have happened with a gay civil partnered couple. There is no experimental mode. There is no fraud. There is no problem. Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Has happened with straight couples. Not could have.

kylith · 20-02-2018 01:14AM

Actually, young people are having less sex.

Annasopra · 20-02-2018 01:15AM

Orion wrote: »

Has happened with straight couples. Not could have.

Indeed. Utter nonsense dressed up with weird obsessions about commie mommies

2wsxcde3 · 20-02-2018 01:17AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Your McCarthyite reds under the bed stuff is very odd.

Very odd is it?

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch.Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced ...by the media. In other words, its not their own choice. They feel under pressure to have sex. So the media is causing alot of the problem and then they need to force an abortion referendum on people to fix the problem they helped create.

Annasopra · 20-02-2018 01:27AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Very odd is it?

Teenagers feel under pressure to have sex
ALMOST ONE-THIRD of teenage girls and 8 per cent of boys have come under pressure to start having sex, according to research presented yesterday by the Crisis Pregnancy Agency (CPA). Research carried out by the agency has found that young people who engage in sex before the age of consent – 17 years – are more likely to experience crisis pregnancy, to have an abortion and to contract a sexually-transmitted disease. “Young people who had sex at an early age were also more likely to express regret – to say that they wished they waited longer,” said Prof Hannah McGee of the Royal College of Surgeons at the launch.Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced, she said, and “myths” of early sexual experience abounded. Caroline Spillane, director of the CPA, said young people experienced immense pressure from their peers, boyfriends and girlfriends, and the media, but differed in their ability to cope with these pressures.
(Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/teenagers-feel-under-pressure-to-have-sex-1.790521 )

Teenage sexual activity was highly culturally influenced ...by the media. In other words, its not their own choice. They feel under pressure to have sex. So the media is causing alot of the problem and then they need to force an abortion referendum on people to fix the problem they helped create.

Hmmmm

A 9 year old report that proves a minority of young people feel pressured. Your suggestion earlier was that feeling pressured is tge default position of all young people. Doesnt exactly prove your point at all.

I dont disagree that young people are pressured but as was highlighted in the Oireachtas committee our sex education in this country is extremely poor.

Neyite · 20-02-2018 01:29AM

That's no different to my generation where I came of age in the beginning of the nineties.

We didn't have abortion then either. In fact, we didn't even have the right to travel back then. All that information was censored, and condoms were hidden under the counter. Many GP's still refused to prescribe the pill.

Still didn't stop my fellow teens having sex or getting knocked up.

pleas advice · 20-02-2018 01:42AM

captbarnacles wrote: »

The latest two prolifers to the thread are clearly on a wind-up. Rape committees and no sex before marriage to thwart the liberals?

david75 wrote: »

The PLC bots are becoming blatantly obvious at this stage.

Same circular nonsensical points, endless nimbyism, little grasp of what the referendum is actually about and knock out blow, Nobody in the real world has even used the word fornication for about 20 years.

well, is it any surprise when you label any poster who might put forward a pro life viewpoint as 'misogynist, religious, women-hating control freaks. who doesn't actually believe that the fetus is human, but is just anti abortion for ****s and giggles, just to slut-shame the little hussies'

that the moderates might think to themselves '**** this for a game of soldiers' and all you're left with is...

pilly · 20-02-2018 03:25AM

I've got an idea Ted, we can't stop people having abortions so we'll stop them fornicating!

Brilliant Dougal!

2wsxcde3 · 20-02-2018 03:42AM

pilly wrote: »

I've got an idea Ted, we can't stop people having abortions so we'll stop them fornicating!

Brilliant Dougal!

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:

You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.
There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

JupiterKid · 20-02-2018 04:54AM

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

pleas advice · 20-02-2018 05:03AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

:rolleyes:

January · 20-02-2018 08:19AM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

January wrote: »

I was married when I had an abortion. (ó still am married just as an FYI to the same person). I was not married when I had my very unplanned pregnancy that I decided to keep (same father still). Unplanned pregnancies happen to married people too.

If it’s not too personal a line of questioning, and please feel free not to answer, why did you have an abortion and do you regret it at all?

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

20-02-2018 08:48AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:
You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

What about people who dont want to marry?
Should they not have a full sex life then?

Edward M · 20-02-2018 08:55AM

January wrote: »

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family.
There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made.
Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied?
I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

nice_guy80 · 20-02-2018 08:58AM

pleas advice wrote: »

:rolleyes:

great argument there.

pitifulgod · 20-02-2018 09:00AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:
You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

Out of interest, do you view sex education as pressure to have sex? Do you think it's bad? I'm getting a distinct impression that you'd view everything from attitude towards gay people to sex lives of others as negative. Would that be correct?

January · 20-02-2018 09:08AM

Edward M wrote: »

January wrote: »

I've spoken about it here before so ive no problem discussing it. It was a litany of reasons, number 1 was we couldn't afford another child. We were both out of work on social welfare barely getting by week to week (I had to borrow the money for the online donation for pills). Number 2 was I actually didn't want anymore children even if we could afford it really we had 4 already. 3 was id had 2 previous cesareans the chance of me having another was high and I really didn't want anyone cutting my abdomen open again. I could go on. I had a lot of reasons but the biggest one was that we couldnt afford to bring another child into the world.

Do I regret it? No. Not even a little bit. That doesn't mean it wasn't a hard decision to make (even though I had already thought of what my options were before I had gotten pregnant so I already had an idea of what would happen if I did get pregnant). It was the right decision for my family at the time and if I had to go back in time I'd still make the same decision as I made.

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family.
There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made.
Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied?
I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

pitifulgod · 20-02-2018 09:16AM

January wrote: »

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

Plus there's other scenarios where some women mightn't want to have another child at this point in time but might later on. Imagine getting the procedure is one of those things that's deeply personal in own right as well.

Edward M · 20-02-2018 09:19AM

January wrote: »

I've asked and been told I need to lose a lot of weight before I get it done. This was before the abortion BTW about 2 months after that I got pregnant. Because I missed the follow up appt (I hadn't lost the weight in the 6 months I was given) I was put back in the waiting list which is long. We couldn't afford it privately. Don't worry I was way ahead of you just **** happens.

Ah I'm not questioning you personally, fair play for your story.
But I'm sure these type of things will be thrown out during the debate.
A lot would be against that procedure too I'd say.
When we considered it first it was my wife who was going to have it done, the gynaecologist that delivered our two children wouldn't do it for her, he said she was too young.
We got another one who was willing to do it in a different hospital, but anyway, as my wife was in bad form at the time I went and got it done myself, but not without great pains to achieve it.

January · 20-02-2018 09:23AM

By the way I make no apologies to anybody about my decision. The reason why I'm so open about discussing it here is that the majority of abortions happen for the same reasons mine did.

51 percent of abortions performed in 2016 in the UK were due to contraception failures.

54% of those who had abortions were already mothers.

Orion · 20-02-2018 10:05AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s funny, isn’t it? Teenage pregnancies here in Ireland have seen huge drops in recent years as proper sex education has finally made its way to all schools, despite fierce and bitter resistance from religious right wing types. In every country where sex education has been implemented and enhanced, teen pregnancy rates have dropped.

Doesn’t tally with the so called “pro-life” brigade who rally against sex education and easily available contraception as it will turn virginal pure young girls into shameless hussies who will murder their unborn babies at the first opportunity.

Utterly distorted, self-defeatist thinking.

Indeed. If you look at maps of the US states where no sex ed or abstinence only programs are taught teen pregnancies are the highest.

SusieBlue · 20-02-2018 10:19AM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Maybe the media could present young people with both sides of the argument:
You can have sex now if you want to and with whoever you want.

There's nothing wrong with waiting to have sex until marriage.

A bit like the message at the moment "Its ok not to be ok". Maybe we need a message "Its ok not to have sex until marriage". At the moment the media gives no choice, hence why young people feel pressurized into having sex as per the article at the top of this page and finding themselves going down the difficult abortion route as a result.

But of course the media wont present a choice. If they did, young people might think its ok to think along conservative lines and so they might vote against a liberal abortion regime. So the media will make sure no choice is put to young people. Its "You're weird if you're not having sex" and nothing else.

Are you married? Do you or did you ever engage in pre-marital sex?
If so you are a massive hypocrite.

With your little regime we would also have the issues we had in the past - people who barely know each other getting wed because the family found out they were fornicating, pushing marriage on them so as not to have the girl ‘shamed’.

These relationships were an absolute disaster because given the chance to get to know each other properly, a lot of these people would never have married in the first place.

pilly · 20-02-2018 10:37AM

Edward M wrote:

And you need offer no apology for your decision, you felt that right for you and your family. There is no doubt in my mind that such decisions aren't easily made. Just one question, given that you had your mind made up, probably anyway, prior to the pregnancy, why not consider having your tubes tied? I ask this as someone who had a vasectomy due to the same issue, my wife's last birth was hard, I decided on the course of action with her rather than have her go through another procedure herself.

Doctors will not tie a woman's tubes as long as she's young.

Another example of the lack of bodily autonomy women have.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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