Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Delirium wrote: »

My bad. So who's suggesting that laws are unnecessary when it comes to abortion?

Everyone who uses the slogan 'Trust women' in order to argue against laws that restrict abortion.

We do not use the phrase 'Trust parents' to argue that parents should be exempt from child abuse laws. We should not use a similar phrase to argue that women should be exempt from laws to protect the unborn child.

As for the sly insinuation that those who wish to retain legislation to protect unborn children are somehow distrustful of women - that is contemptible.

Which make sense as it's a vote to repeal or not.

Legislation happens after repeal (if successful).

It makes sense if we are willing to hand politicians a blank cheque on the issue of abortion. And that will be the crux of this Referendum. It's not about trusting women. It's not about trusting doctors. It's about trusting politicians.

But we don't hand politicians a blank cheque (or, more accurately, an entire book of blank cheques) on many other issues. That was why, for example, we voted in the Children's Referendum to enshrine certain rights in the Constitution that politicians could not take away even if they wanted to. (It was notable that Barnardo's - in promoting the Children's referendum - specifically referred to the eighth Amendment and it's protection of a specific group of people as justification for us enshrining the protection of children in the Constitution)

I am making no smug predictions about what the Referendum result will be. But I am interested to see whether the Irish people will trust politicians (with their horse trading for office and rapidly evolving principles) in such a way.

Delirium wrote: »

Kindly quote any posts advocating late-term abortions before making the leap to infanticide.

we are told by some pro-choice across a number of platforms that we have to trust women to make the decisian in relation to having an abortion, and that by legally preventing them from having abortions that means we don't trust them. i'm therefore wondering why shouldn't that be extended going on those people's logic, if we don't trust them by preventing them from having an abortion, then surely we don't trust them given we have other laws preventing us all from doing what we like to other human beings, which will include women being unable to kill the unborn after a time limit, or killing the born?
the only argument we get as to why not is "sentients" but as many of us have established that isn't valid as a judge as we don't implement human rights based on sentients, and even if we were to, it would be a very very small part of the process. we also have established that by having laws preventing us from harming other human beings, which include women, it does not mean that we don't trust women.

david75 wrote: »

If I’m reading your view right, you’re afraid of what future governments and legislation might do. Meaning there’s nothing stopping them making even more drastic changes down the line.

First of all thats complete whatabouttery and scare mongering that rings hollow and nobody with even half a brain and who is paying attention to all his will fall for. At all. Only maybe the most vulnerable voters meaning the elderly. (Who are easily lead, and being mislead down this path by the Plc it would seem.)

Secondly are you new in ireland? Nothing major is ever changes ever. And major changes rarely tabled. Change of any kind is glacially slow on almost every issue but on such an important issue why would any TD / govt or oireachtas commit career suicide by opening up this can of worms *again*.

Lastly, are you paying attention to this debate at all? Nobody is calling for abortion on demand and at any stage up to 39 weeks. Nobody is.

The only people I see even mentioning it at all is yourself and the PLC.
So what’s up with that?

it's not scaremongering but simply thinking of the long term. some people will pay attention to this as they understand that it's not just about the aftermath should a repeal be successful but the long term possibilities. people are calling for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, that is still abortion on demand as people are able to avail of it without reason.

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i would consider abortion on demand to be just as horrible an act as bashing the head in of a 5 year old. i'm not one bit ashamed to hold that view, as both the 5 year old and the 12 week fetus are human beings and have an equal right to life.

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you can't choose to get rid of it in this country at least. it's not your choice to kill the unborn in ireland. the rights of the unborn to live come before your bodily autonomy unless medical necessity requires otherwise. everyone's bodily autonomy is restricted to an extent for the greater good of society and there is no reason why this shouldn't be the case in terms of the unborn.

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preventing her from killing the unborn outside medical necessity, even if it is barbaric, it would never be as barbaric as abortion on demand.

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the 12 week old fetus only has an equal right to life as the mother, it does not have more rights. in fact, the mother has more of a right to life as her life will be saved at the expence of the fetus should there be a medical issue. whether the unborn is or isn't sentient means nothing as we don't decide rights based on sentients.

smacl wrote: »

If the last couple of referendums are anything to go by, the one supposed moral authority that has certainly lost the people's trust is the clergy. For all the many faults you may lay at the feet of our politicians, at least they can claim a democratic mandate. IMHO, our politicians tend to say what they think the electorate want to hear, first and foremost.

I'd be very interested to hear your arguments as to how the Referenda on reducing the minimum age of the President, or abolishing the Seanad, represent an endorsement of politicians' powers or express any view on the clergy at all.

Much as some might like this to be a referendum on the clergy, it is not.

Btw, I would heartily support any referendum that sought to remove the privileged role of religion in Irish society - but sadly such a vote is not an option at the moment

J C wrote: »

If that is your position, you you should be much more careful about what you let in there ... instead of expecting everyone to allow you to 'get rid of' your irresponsible 'mistakes' ... by killing them

... so a child, a tumour and a puppy are equivalent in your mind ... the people of Ireland need to bear in mind that it is people like you who are demanding abortion and expecting them to damn themselves to sign the death warrants for these innocent little angels.

Your first paragraph once again speaks volumes of your compempt, disdain, lack of respect and distrust of women. You aren’t even trying to hide it any more. It’s clear for all to see.

Spare me with your ‘innocent little angels’ rubbish.

You can go on and on as much as you like, nothing on this earth qualifies you to interfere in my healthcare and in my bodily autonomy. Very soon our constitution will be changed to reflect that.

Then you’ll have to find something else to preach about and interfere in. What next??