The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

....... · 19-02-2018 06:18PM

This post has been deleted.

Neyite · 19-02-2018 06:21PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You are quite right. What I should have said is that it prevents Irish doctors from offering abortions.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 06:28PM

Neyite wrote: »

A 4 week embryo cant be found in amongst the clotting. It is the size of a SESAME SEED at four weeks. It can't even be seen on a scan. A woman won't feel it passing from her vagina. At 4 weeks it's a period with a zygote that failed to implant. Your "woman" would have had no idea if that zygote was male or female, so dunno how she chose a name. As for burying it? At four weeks? That never happened and its actually really nasty of you to assert its even possible and give false hope to a bereaved mother.

I was just repeating what some women do. It wasn't meant to be nasty towards women who've had a miscarriage and never thought of it that way. Though I can see what i've done now.

....... · 19-02-2018 06:30PM

This post has been deleted.

kylith · 19-02-2018 06:30PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Being pro-life is not about judging "good girls" from "bad girls". That's an idea that exists in many pro-choicers head because they feel they are "judged" if they have an abortion. Being pro-life is motivated by wanting to protect the unborn child who has no voice. And protecting women who are tricked into thinking abortion is a good thing ...only to find out the true horrors of it once the abortion has actually taken place.

No one is judging women who've had abortions. That's an idea pro-choicers need to get out of their head, really for their own good as its not nice (or good) to feel judged by anyone.

Saying that women who have been raped can have abortions, but that women whose contraception has failed can't is judging them, and dividing them into women who 'deserve' abortions and women who don't.

blanch152 · 19-02-2018 06:35PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

No ones suggesting they have to go to trial. Simply file a report at a garda station that they have been raped and would like an abortion. The women need take no further action beyond that.

But obviously pro-choicers don't trust women enough to tell the truth.

Do you realise the damage that this could cause to the men accused of rape?

Do you know anything about the system of Garda vetting and soft information?

Anyone accused of rape in this way would never be able to get a job in a school or work with an underage sports team.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 06:36PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's not my story, I posted a link earlier to the womans story:

When I miscarried I passed the baby onto my pad. I was very early (4 weeks) but could tell that tissue was different and was my baby. I got a soft cloth and put him on it, I wrapped him, and buried him in our yard. Then I lit a candle and put it there alone with a piece of paper that I wrote his name on and a flower. It was my way of marking his grave. Even a year later all 3 items were still there! However, I do regret burying him there because we moved about 6 months ago. It was very hard to leave him there after being able to visit him whenever for 2 years! The last day before we left I did light his candle one more time.
(Source: https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby )

blanch152 · 19-02-2018 07:00PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It's not my story, I posted a link earlier to the womans story:

When I miscarried I passed the baby onto my pad. I was very early (4 weeks) but could tell that tissue was different and was my baby. I got a soft cloth and put him on it, I wrapped him, and buried him in our yard. Then I lit a candle and put it there alone with a piece of paper that I wrote his name on and a flower. It was my way of marking his grave. Even a year later all 3 items were still there! However, I do regret burying him there because we moved about 6 months ago. It was very hard to leave him there after being able to visit him whenever for 2 years! The last day before we left I did light his candle one more time.
(Source: https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby )

I don't want to be unnecessarily upsetting people, particularly the woman who posted that story, but there is absolutely no way that she could be sure that anything she passed at 4 weeks was a baby unless it was tested.

January · 19-02-2018 07:04PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't want to be unnecessarily upsetting people, particularly the woman who posted that story, but there is absolutely no way that she could be sure that anything she passed at 4 weeks was a baby unless it was tested.

For all she knows she buried a blood clot, but sure if it makes her feel better about what happened to her then leave her off.

volchitsa · 19-02-2018 07:05PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

It's not my story, I posted a link earlier to the womans story:

When I miscarried I passed the baby onto my pad. I was very early (4 weeks) but could tell that tissue was different and was my baby. I got a soft cloth and put him on it, I wrapped him, and buried him in our yard. Then I lit a candle and put it there alone with a piece of paper that I wrote his name on and a flower. It was my way of marking his grave. Even a year later all 3 items were still there! However, I do regret burying him there because we moved about 6 months ago. It was very hard to leave him there after being able to visit him whenever for 2 years! The last day before we left I did light his candle one more time.
(Source: https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby )

I think grief makes people write themselves a narrative. A piece of paper left out im the garden was there a year later? Sounds a bit like a miracle, no?

As for "knowing" which clot was the "baby" - well, maybe, but again, frim my own experience I find it hard to credit. TBH I wouldnt know for sure what happens at 4 weeks but I do know that at 7/8 weeks I felt the amniotic sac pass (and sorry if this is TMI) when I was on the toilet but I really couldnt identify it in the mess of blood and bits of placenta. TBF I didnt search too much I was too horrified at the time.

So basically I'm dubious, though Im not saying she is deliberately lying.

pilly · 19-02-2018 07:14PM

2wsxcde3 wrote:

I trust women not to abuse the system. Though i'm still against abortion in cases of rape as the baby is innocent.

If your against it any way why are you debating the how and why's? I'm confused.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 07:24PM

JDD wrote: »

Except, those who say that they are pro-life but would permit an abortion in the circumstance of rape, is judging. Are they not? Because they are saying that this is the only circumstance where a woman should be allowed to have an abortion in one where she did not actively participate in the sex that resulted in the pregnancy. All other reasons for having an abortion are off the table.

I don't think its a case of judging the woman. Its really a case of people trying to make abortions as rare as possible (and so there is a grudging allowance for cases or rape, incest and FFA). Just like setting the limit at 12 weeks is not an attempt to judge women who have an abortion at 13 weeks. The objective is to try to make abortions as rare as possible, not to judge one woman who has an abortion from another woman who has an abortion.

When you introduce abortion on demand into a society, it comes along with so many unavoidable negative side effects. So the goal in alot of peoples minds is to restrict it.

uptherebels · 19-02-2018 07:30PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

When you introduce abortion on demand into a society, it comes along with so many unavoidable negative side effects. So the goal in alot of peoples minds is to restrict it.

What are these many negative side effects? I

....... · 19-02-2018 07:32PM

This post has been deleted.

Bannasidhe · 19-02-2018 07:40PM

Andrew Beef wrote: »

The interaction between abortion and rape is a key issue; at least I have proposed a potential solution rather than simply rant and gas-bag as most people do.

Complex issues such as this are so polarising and will never result in agreement.

What you have proposed is to add yet more indignity upon rape victims.

You are seriously suggesting that a rape victim should firstly be raped. Then discover she is pregnant by her rapist. Then have to convince a panel of so-called experts that she was actually raped. Whereupon if she succeeds have an abortion so she can be ready for the later trial. Because they would have to be a trail.
And if she doesn't convince them? What then? Should she enter the subsequent born child as evidence or will a DNA sample do??

Listen to yourself man. What you are suggesting is beyond barbaric. Have you absolutely no empathy?

drkpower · 19-02-2018 07:41PM

January wrote: »

For all she knows she buried a blood clot, but sure if it makes her feel better about what happened to her then leave her off.

This type of comment is really disappointing.

Early pregnancy scans can be carried out at 6 weeks from LMP. That's a gestational age of c. 4 weeks (ie. from the date of conception). There are many people who lose a pregnancy at 4 weeks and are devastated by that.

To demean that experience is just unnecessary.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 07:44PM

uptherebels wrote: »

What are these many negative side effects?

Boyfriends putting pressure on their girlfriends to get an abortion against the wishes of the woman.
Women regretting having an abortion like the "C Case" woman here in Ireland in 1997 who says she thinks about the baby she aborted every day.
Unborn children die (who were wanted by adopted parents even though the mother and/or father might not have wanted them or thought they didn't want them).
Lowered birth rate in the country and so we will need to import people (from cultures with values very different to our own) like Germany and Sweden did.
A loss of humanity in the country like in the UK and USA where they were burning unborn babies to heat hospitals and thought nothing of it.

And alot of others including some women die from abortions while others are left infertile. Abortion on demand is like a new drug a pharmaceutical company tries to sell you. But the side-effects from the drug are worse than the problem it was trying to cure.

SusieBlue · 19-02-2018 07:47PM

If I see the ‘they could have been put up for adoption’ argument one more time, I may throw my laptop out the window.
Why is this argument still made when it has been debunked about 30 times now?

amdublin · 19-02-2018 07:48PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Boyfriends putting pressure on their girlfriends to get an abortion against the wishes of the woman.

Women regretting having an abortion like the "C Case" woman here in Ireland in 1997 who says she thinks about the baby she aborted every day.

Unborn children die (who were wanted by adopted parents even though the mother and/or father might not have wanted them or thought they didn't want them).

Lowered birth rate in the country and so we will need to import people (from cultures with values very different to our own) like Germany and Sweden did.

A loss of humanity in the country like in the UK and USA where they were burning unborn babies to heat hospitals and thought nothing of it.

And alot of others including some women die from abortions while others are left infertile. Abortion on demand is like a new drug a pharmaceutical company tries to sell you. But the side-effects from the drug are worse than the problem it was trying to cure.

Abortion on request in Ireland might actually reduce the amount of Irish abortions.

Give the lady some time to consider it more, rather than the focus being on getting flights booked and time off work go go travel.
Also once you are over there in the UK if you are having second doubts I think the pressure of travel will mean you go ahead with it anyway.

I know it's tv. But remember Miranda in sex and the city going for an abortion and then changing her mind. I'd hope that if the abortion experience/clinic was like that in Ireland that more women may decide not to go through with the abortion.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 07:50PM

amdublin wrote: »

Abortion on request in Ireland might actually reduce the amount of Irish abortions.

I'm sure some people said that in the UK in 1967.

amdublin · 19-02-2018 07:54PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

I'm sure some people said that in the UK in 1967.

I have faith and trust Irish women.

Remember all the hooha and propaganda before the divorce referendum. Hey guess what the sky did not fall down.
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but divorces per year (per capita)are less in Ireland than the UK?
Hello divorce, goodbye daddy...you'd swear we were bringing jn mandatory divorce.

Again the marriage equality referendum. Two years later and all is ok and good.

January · 19-02-2018 07:57PM

drkpower wrote: »

This type of comment is really disappointing.

Early pregnancy scans can be carried out at 6 weeks from LMP. That's a gestational age of c. 4 weeks (ie. from the date of conception). There are many people who lose a pregnancy at 4 weeks and are devastated by that.

To demean that experience is just unnecessary.

I'm not demeaning anyones experience. She could not have identified an embryo on a pad at that stage of gestation. As Neyite said its the size of a sesame seed.

This person was obviously devastated by what happened to her but there's no way she knew what she was burying was an embryo but if it brought her some peace to think that she was burying her miscarried baby then she should be left to do what she felt she needed to do.

2wsxcde3 · 19-02-2018 08:00PM

amdublin wrote: »

I have faith and trust Irish women.

So you trust Irish women but not UK women. That makes no sense. Aren't both pretty much the same?

amdublin wrote: »

Remember all the hooha and propaganda before the divorce referendum. Hey guess what the sky did not fall down.
Ok correct me if I'm wrong but divorces per year (per capita)are less in Ireland than the UK?

Lower so far. The numbers are increasing. There is a time lag between actually bringing in divorce into a country and people actually getting divorced as commonplace like in the USA for example.

amdublin wrote: »

Again the marriage equality referendum. Two years later and all is ok and good.

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

kylith · 19-02-2018 08:07PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

Because that has NEVER happened with two people of opposite genders?

amdublin · 19-02-2018 08:10PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

So you trust Irish women but not UK women. That makes no sense. Aren't both pretty much the same?

Lower so far. The numbers are increasing. There is a time lag between actually bringing in divorce into a country and people actually getting divorced as commonplace like in the USA for example.

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

Divorce in Ireland peaked in 2007 and fell after that:
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/life/family/family-features/why-does-ireland-have-the-lowest-divorce-rate-in-the-eu-34217513.html

We "had" one incident of two straight men getting married. Out of all the good happy news stories about people in love getting married that's what you jump On? The sanctity of marriage not being affected and you jump on that??

uptherebels · 19-02-2018 08:13PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

Boyfriends putting pressure on their girlfriends to get an abortion against the wishes of the woman.

If this is going to happen it will occur whether abortion is available in ireland or not due to the prevalence of abortion pills and the fact that the irish state and people have made it perfectly acceptable for women to travel outsider the state for abortion.
Any statistics to back up the ocurence of this scenario?

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

[*]Women regretting having an abortion like the "C Case" woman here in Ireland in 1997 who says she thinks about the baby she aborted every day.

Perfectly avoidable by ensuring that women suffering an unwanted pregnancy are informed of all their options

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

[*]Unborn children die (who were wanted by adopted parents even though the mother and/or father might not have wanted them or thought they didn't want them).

You mean fetuses?
There was only 5 domestic adoptions in 2016! Dont think it was from lack of kids.

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

[*]Lowered birth rate in the country and so we will need to import people (from cultures with values very different to our own) like Germany and Sweden did.

Ya cause abortion is the sole effect of a lowered birth rate.Remind me how the thousands of Irish women who already have abortions every year has resulted in us needing to import labour? Are you campaigning against contraception aswell?

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

[*]A loss of humanity in the country like in the UK and USA where they were burning unborn babies to heat hospitals and thought nothing of it.

Like the humanity of burying actual babies in mass graves? They thought nothing of it because medical waste is incinerated

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

And alot of others including some women die from abortions while others are left infertile. Abortion on demand is like a new drug a pharmaceutical company tries to sell you. But the side-effects from the drug are worse than the problem it was trying to cure.

like women die from having to endure unnecessary surgeries because they are pregnant! Why is dying in one scenario a problem for you but not the other?

frag420 · 19-02-2018 08:14PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

Sure isn’t experimenting half the fun, trying different positions, techniques etc! And sure look, nobody outside of the relationship between those two are being hurt, imagine that!?

What problems have we got? You mention tax avoidance, should we ban naming fruit n veg because some guy decided to rename his apples as garlic to pay less tax?

uptherebels · 19-02-2018 08:15PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

It not fraud when it is perfectly legal:rolleyes:

The country has enough problems without you fabricating more

....... · 19-02-2018 08:35PM

This post has been deleted.

pitifulgod · 19-02-2018 08:38PM

2wsxcde3 wrote: »

So you trust Irish women but not UK women. That makes no sense. Aren't both pretty much the same?

Lower so far. The numbers are increasing. There is a time lag between actually bringing in divorce into a country and people actually getting divorced as commonplace like in the USA for example.

We now have two straight men getting married in order to defraud the tax man. That's only after two years. Same sex marriage is still in experimental mode and its already throwing up problems.

I trust women in the UK to make their own decisions too. Divorce wise, in much the same way I oppose forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy against her will, I also oppose forcing somebody to remain in a marriage that is deeply unhappy. It's not beneficial to any party including their children....

A man and a woman can also engage in tax avoidance by getting married, it's not illegal to do so. So really marriage is still experimental so?

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Comments