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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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  • #7592
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    So you're saying other women are as dishonest as you?

    Eh. Yes?

    I'm not entirely sure what you're asking.

    Do I think a person, who thinks a particular law is an overwhelming affront to how a civilized society should work, should break that law, while acknowledging the consequences? Yes. Of course. Wouldn't you?

    I'd be the first one in line breaking that law - and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it. I've mentioned my reasons for seeking a termination in a previous post should I get pregnant again. As I said, if I couldn't travel or procure the online pill, I would have absolutely zero moral qualms in reporting a fake rape to Gardaí. It'd be a terrible waste of taxpayers money in investigating a fake rape, but honestly that's not really my fault, it's the fault of people advocating for such a ridiculous system. I can't imagine that if they came to the conclusion I made a fake report, the DPP would be that bothered in pursuing a case against me, taking a mother from her three kids where a good chunk, if not the majority of the country, would agree with my reasoning. They have limited resources and easier cases to take.

    As an added bones, if a systemic abuse of the system turned it into an absurdity and it was repealed, I would have contributed to saving a traumatized rape victim from being forced to relive their ordeal with a stranger against their will. A win all round. I would sleep very easy.


  • #7593
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result.

    Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?


  • #7594
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


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  • #7595
    Eponymous
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    eviltwin wrote: »
    With all due respect to the gardai they aren't trained to counsel rape victims. It's not their job. I used to work in a domestic violence service, rape was a common experience of the women I dealt with. Some ended up pregnant as a result. They would have a hard time proving they were raped, not all victims are able to go to the gardai and if we make that a condition it's not going to help anyone.
    Assuming of course that the poster actually wants to help anyone.


  • #7596
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

    I haven't heard of this being the case in other jurisdictions that allow abortion on request, which is unsurprising because the point is that it is the woman who makes the choice, not anyone else.


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  • #7597
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #7598
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

    They do that anyway.


  • #7599
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    JDD wrote: »
    I'd be the first one in line breaking that law - and I wouldn't lose a moment's sleep over it.

    So you'd lie to gardai? I don't know how pro-choice people can even talk to each other if they happy admit they would lie about being raped.


  • #7600
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That is, of course, the point.


  • #7601
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Bury them in the angels plot. Some hospitals in Ireland have one and offer parents to bury their miscarried baby there, or the parents can take the baby home. Its open to the parents.

    Give me the name of ONE hospital that offers this for miscarriages at 8 weeks gestation. Just one.
    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    ... flush their remains down the toilet into raw sewerage. I don't think that's a good idea. It lowers human dignity.

    Explain to me how a woman who miscarries in the first trimester disposes of the week-long bleeding, clots and foetal tissue, given that hospitals send them to miscarry at home. I'm very interested. Is there a miscarriage receptacle? Please explain to me how over the course of a week of bleeding a woman can prevent that pregnancy being dripped down the toilet every time she pees or poos. How does a woman stop it mingling with the raw waste coming out of her body at the same time?

    If the local hospital have a policy to not even give you an appointment until your bleeding is finished, what or how does a woman deal with the remains ethically?
    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    I wonder how distressing it is to people who have had miscarriages to hear their loss dismissed as "just a bunch of cells".

    I can tell you if you like. I had very little distress compared to some of the other stuff people have come out with. What was distressing was that the early pregnancy care I should have received was not offered to me due to the impact the 8th has on maternity policy.

    I am angry. Angry that I could have gotten treatment that is available to women in other countries that could have potentially saved even one of my lost pregnancies and given me another child. I am angry that they make women have three miscarriages in a row before they even put her on a year long waiting list for investigations. I'm angry that they don't test foetal tissue so parents can know if there is a reason for miscarriage. I'm angry because the 8th directly affected MY family, my losses, all of which were much wanted pregnancies because of hospital policy based on the 8th.


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  • #7602
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    Wouldn't abortion on demand in this country only facilitate abusive men forcing the woman to have an abortion against their will?

    Em. You can buy pills on the internet. It's the first choice that comes up on google. WAY easier to order the pills and watch your partner take them, then march them to clinic and wait in a waiting room hoping she doesn't report you to the doctor.

    So yes, it would happen anyway.

    Next.


  • #7603
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #7604
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Neyite wrote: »
    I can tell you if you like. I had very little distress compared to some of the other stuff people have come out with. What was distressing was that the early pregnancy care I should have received was not offered to me due to the impact the 8th has on maternity policy.

    I am angry. Angry that I could have gotten treatment that is available to women in other countries that could have potentially saved even one of my lost pregnancies and given me another child. I am angry that they make women have three miscarriages in a row before they even put her on a year long waiting list for investigations. I'm angry that they don't test foetal tissue so parents can know if there is a reason for miscarriage. I'm angry because the 8th directly affected MY family, my losses, all of which were much wanted pregnancies because of hospital policy based on the 8th.

    How would the 8th amendment cause a woman to potentially lose a pregnancy?


  • #7605
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    So you'd lie to gardai? I don't know how pro-choice people can even talk to each other if they happy admit they would lie about being raped.
    So, you don't think a woman would lie to the police, but you do think that women would not bother with contraception if they could 'just' get an abortion?


  • #7606
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    All the woman has to do is file a report but state she does not want to take any further action. .

    Gardaí are supposed to take a report of a crime and then ignore it?


  • #7607
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    So you'd lie to gardai? I don't know how pro-choice people can even talk to each other if they happy admit they would lie about being raped.

    Again. Yes. This argument is absurd.

    Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't relish the thought. I've never knowingly broken the law before. Well, that's not true, I've jaywalked, I drank before I was 18, I smoked a spliff once when I was in college. Actually, come to think of it, I think I did lie to a garda once outside the Zoo Bar circa 1992 when he asked me had I been drinking. But you know, I've never broken the law to any serious extent.

    But if the choice was between continuing with a pregnancy that could have serious consequences for my health, and going in to tick a box with Garda Super, then jesus, of course I would. It would be horrendous to think that it would contribute towards real rape victims not being believed, but to be honest I think every Garda Super would expect 99% of the people coming in to them for this type of report might be lying. And again I don't think any Garda Super would decide that the immigrant sitting across the table, or the ward of court (usually a minor, sometimes someone with mental health issues) was lying and couldn't have an abortion. It would be box ticking - exactly the same as the UK law which allows for abortion in medical cases with the consent of your GP.

    And it would be immigrants and wards of court going through this process. Everyone else would just go to the UK or order the pill.


  • #7608
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Indeed. An Irish solution to an Irish problem. Make them report it to the Gardaí to placate the conservatives who only want good girls to have abortions, but in reality let everyone have one.


  • #7609
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    How would the 8th amendment cause a woman to potentially lose a pregnancy?

    Because there are a range of early pregnancy treatments for women who have a history of miscarriage that can help prevent them from miscarrying should they get pregnant again. They don't get prescribed in many Irish hospitals because maternity policy of that hospital takes the 8th into consideration.

    Now that I've nicely answered your question, would you please answer the ones I asked you?


  • #7610
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    JDD wrote: »
    Make them report it to the Gardaí to placate the conservatives who only want good girls to have abortions, but in reality let everyone have one.

    Being pro-life is not about judging "good girls" from "bad girls". That's an idea that exists in many pro-choicers head because they feel they are "judged" if they have an abortion. Being pro-life is motivated by wanting to protect the unborn child who has no voice. And protecting women who are tricked into thinking abortion is a good thing ...only to find out the true horrors of it once the abortion has actually taken place.

    No one is judging women who've had abortions. That's an idea pro-choicers need to get out of their head, really for their own good as its not nice (or good) to feel judged by anyone.


  • #7611
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    JDD wrote: »
    Indeed. An Irish solution to an Irish problem. Make them report it to the Gardaí to placate the conservatives who only want good girls to have abortions, but in reality let everyone have one.

    Funnily/sadly enough, its not just an Irish solution.

    There are a bunch of jurisdictions through Europe who require a report to the police (or some judicial authority) to permit abortion under the rape ground. And a bunch of others who require notification of rape to a doctor/2 doctors.

    It's a fundamentally dishonest approach given that neither the police/judicial authority/doctor are under an obligation (AFAIK) to actually validate the report in any way whatsoever. One would imagine it simply encourages false reporting on the one hand, and failure to report in respect of those who are most vulnerable and who couldn't bear the thought of having to tell anyone about it.


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  • #7612
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Neyite wrote: »
    Because there are a range of early pregnancy treatments for women who have a history of miscarriage that can help prevent them from miscarrying should they get pregnant again. They don't get prescribed in many Irish hospitals because maternity policy of that hospital takes the 8th into consideration.

    I don't understand this. What kind of early pregnancy treatments are you taking about? The 8th is designed to protect the unborn. Do the treatments you talk about result in damaging or killing the unborn?

    In response to your earlier questions, i posted a situation of a woman who buried her 4 week miscarriage, gave the baby a name and lit a candle for them.


  • #7613
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    I've been judged by many anti-choice people for having an abortion. I've even had them ask me what type of contraception I was on and told I must have been using it incorrectly if I got pregnant while using it. I've had a friend who is 'pro-life' tell me that I should keep my legs closed if I don't want to have any more children. I've had people on this thread question my decision.

    People who have abortions are judged whether you believe they are or not.


  • #7614
    Call me Al
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    drkpower wrote: »
    Funnily/sadly enough, its not just an Irish solution.

    There are a bunch of jurisdictions through Europe who require a report to the police (or some judicial authority) to permit abortion under the rape ground. And a bunch of others who require notification of rape to a doctor/2 doctors.

    It's a fundamentally dishonest approach given that neither the police/judicial authority/doctor are under an obligation (AFAIK) to actually validate the report in any way whatsoever. One would imagine it simply encourages false reporting on the one hand, and failure to report in respect of those who are most vulnerable and who couldn't bear the thought of having to tell anyone about it.
    Do these jurisdictions permit any abortions other than for rape? No questions asked type if situations similar to the UK?

    Eta https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_law


  • #7615
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #7616
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    This whole rape committee thing is not sitting at all with me
    Why in God's name would we want to sit in judgement and decide if a woman was actually raped or not? And why would we want to put so much blockers in front of a woman who is seeking an abortion.

    In any circumstance, rape or not, it should be nobody but the woman's decision whether to have an abortion or not.
    And yes I mean that, I don't care if someone had sex (god forbid!!!) and their contraceptive failed. Whatever! I really could care less about someone's bedroom activities, leave them be and let them get on with their life. Who the heck am I to dictate: No you must carry that baby. And then either keep it. Or give it up for adoption. Oh go on, If you insist on having an abortion you can have one, But not here. Oh no, on with ya and across to the uk to do the dirty deed.

    Why would we want to do that to our daughters, our sister's, our wives, our partners, our friends, our neighbours? Why??


  • #7617
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    January wrote: »
    I've been judged by many anti-choice people for having an abortion. I've even had them ask me what type of contraception I was on and told I must have been using it incorrectly if I got pregnant while using it. I've had a friend who is 'pro-life' tell me that I should keep my legs closed if I don't want to have any more children. I've had people on this thread question my decision.

    People who have abortions are judged whether you believe they are or not.

    I think some of the dialogue can be easily misinterpreted as being judgmental on the woman, when in reality its not meant to be. The anger is towards the fact that an unborn has died, rather than anger towards the woman. If the woman has had an abortion, its kind of a done deal at that stage. No point in being angry at her.

    Statements like "you should have kept your legs closed" are fueled by anger at the fact an unborn child has died, not towards the woman. Its the same with statements like "abortion is murder". You'd be surprised how little anger there is towards the actual woman in the mind of the pro-lifer. I don't feel anger towards women who've had an abortion (or am judging them), though i'd imagine from my statements on here people probably thought i did.


  • #7618
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I think some of the dialogue can be easily misinterpreted as being judgmental on the woman, when in reality its not meant to be. The anger is towards the fact that an unborn has died, rather than anger towards the woman. If the woman has had an abortion, its kind of a done deal at that stage. No point in being angry at her.

    Statements like "you should have kept your legs closed" are fueled by anger at the fact an unborn child has died, not towards the woman. Its the same with statements like "abortion is murder". You'd be surprised how little anger there is towards the actual woman in the mind of the pro-lifer.

    The anger was definitely directed at me in this case. Women are judged for having abortions, you're being told this by a woman who has been judged for having an abortion.


  • #7619
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #7620
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Being pro-life is not about judging "good girls" from "bad girls". That's an idea that exists in many pro-choicers head because they feel they are "judged" if they have an abortion. Being pro-life is motivated by wanting to protect the unborn child who has no voice. And protecting women who are tricked into thinking abortion is a good thing ...only to find out the true horrors of it once the abortion has actually taken place.

    No one is judging women who've had abortions. That's an idea pro-choicers need to get out of their head, really for their own good as its not nice (or good) to feel judged by anyone.

    Except, those who say that they are pro-life but would permit an abortion in the circumstance of rape, is judging. Are they not? Because they are saying that this is the only circumstance where a woman should be allowed to have an abortion in one where she did not actively participate in the sex that resulted in the pregnancy. All other reasons for having an abortion are off the table.

    You know, I respect your position. If you believe there are women who will regret having abortions because they haven't been fully educated on the process, and the regret will traumatize them, then I believe you should go right ahead and have your voice be heard. I believe you come from a compassionate place.

    It wouldn't make any difference to me mind. I miscarried at nine weeks between my first and second child. It wasn't horrific by any extent. I miscarried naturally (no surgical intervention) and it was like a heavy period. No particular pain. I went to work every day. I didn't see a foetus or anything - I suspect like most early miscarriages it went down the toilet. Bit gross but true. I was sad I wasn't pregnant anymore but to be honest I got pregnant pretty soon after that so didn't really think about it too much. I don't mean to degenerate everyone else's experience, everyone reacts differently, I'm just voicing my own.

    I'd imagine if I took the abortion pill I probably wouldn't feel sad I wasn't pregnant, given I had chosen of my free will to take the pill, so it would have even less of an impact. I don't think a story about someone else who had taken the abortion pill but regretted it afterwards would particularly influence me one way or the other. I'd just be sad for them that they made a choice that didn't work out for them. But that's life I suppose.


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  • #7621
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I don't understand this. What kind of early pregnancy treatments are you taking about? The 8th is designed to protect the unborn. Do the treatments you talk about result in damaging or killing the unborn?

    No. Do keep up. The medications and treatments help prevent miscarriage. Blood tests and tissue testing can give a couple answers and help diagnose issues that can cause miscarriage. Often a woman could be given medication based on those test results to sustain a pregnancy.

    The whole point of this thread is that the 8th is unfit for it's purpose. It prevents abortion. That's it. It falls far short of protecting all unborn.
    wrote:
    In response to your earlier questions, i posted a situation of a woman who buried her 4 week miscarriage, gave the baby a name and lit a candle for them.

    That never happened.

    A 4 week embryo cant be found in amongst the clotting. It is the size of a SESAME SEED at four weeks. It can't even be seen on a scan. A woman won't feel it passing from her vagina. At 4 weeks it's a period with a zygote that failed to implant. Your "woman" would have had no idea if that zygote was male or female, so dunno how she chose a name. As for burying it? At four weeks? That never happened and its actually really nasty of you to assert its even possible and give false hope to a bereaved mother.

    But keep going with your incorrect stories. They are doing wonders to piss people off who might otherwise be on the fence over to the side where facts are more important than hyperbole.


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