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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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Comments

  • #7262
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Oh please, spare me. I’m giving you facts. This is what happens. Whether you like it or not this is the truth.

    We're talking about dumping a readily identifiable baby into raw sewerage???

    Can you not understand how countries who practice FGM for example look at us here in the west and think we are as gone in the head as we like to think they are?


  • #7263
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    2wsxcde3 wrote:
    Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

    How was that woman lied to? She and her partner made the decision to have a termination. No one forced them to. She had a CHOICE.

    In a medical setting I'm sure couples have the option in Ireland to keep the remains if the choose. But if they don't want to keep it, the products of conception (that's what their called in a hospital) are placed in containers in formaldehyde and disposed of as medical waste. They are not flushed down a toilet.


  • #7264
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    The baby is buried in the family plot, often without being registered.

    And its not a "clot". I came across this story online:

    ...

    Another woman lied to about abortion. Are you saying she should flush the little baby down the toilet?

    Someone’s lying, but it wasn’t the doctors. At 9 weeks a fetus is an inch long, not as big as a thumb, and if you think that it looks like a perfect little baby then you have either never googled what a 9 week fetus looks like, or you have a disturbed idea of what a human looks like.

    People may bury stillborn babies, but I have never heard of anyone holding a funeral for an inch-long fetus or burying it in the family plot, whatever that is.


  • #7265
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    We're talking about dumping a readily identifiable baby into raw sewerage???

    Can you not understand how countries who practice FGM for example look at us here in the west and think we are as gone in the head as we like to think they are?

    This is how the world over treats miscarriages, sorry to burst your bubble.
    As I previously said, 1 in 3 pregnancies end in miscarriage before week 12.
    If we held funerals for each and every lost pregnancy there would be no free land anywhere.

    You seem to be really naive on how maternity care works. Maybe instead of posting your hysterical faux outrage on the internet you could start a campaign we could all get behind.
    I suggest one to grant babies born pre 24 weeks death certificates.
    Currently we don’t recognize babies lost before this point as people which is very upsetting for parents who have lost a child.

    I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that bit about FGM, because not only is it irrelevant it’s highly offensive to anyone who has experienced a miscarriage.


  • #7266
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    In a medical setting I'm sure couples have the option in Ireland to keep the remains if the choose. But if they don't want to keep it, the products of conception (that's what their called in a hospital) are placed in containers in formaldehyde and disposed of as medical waste. They are not flushed down a toilet.

    And used to heat hospitals.

    Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals
    (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-uk-hospitals/ )

    Sound familiar? The nazis used the corpses of jews they had gassed to heat the houses in the concentration camps.


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  • #7267
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    And used to heat hospitals.

    Aborted babies incinerated to heat UK hospitals
    (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-uk-hospitals/ )

    Sound familiar? The nazis used the corpses of jews they had gassed to heat the houses in the concentration camps.

    I don’t think you realize how offensive you are being. This would be very distressing to read for anyone who has suffered a miscarriage.
    Shame on you. You don’t have a clue.


  • #7268
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I don’t think you realize how offensive you are being. This would be very distressing to read for anyone who has suffered a miscarriage.
    Shame on you. You don’t have a clue.

    I'm not trying to be offensive, but abortion advocates were calling for an "honest and open debate on abortion in this country". I don't think people should call for an honest and open debate and then tell people to shut up about what happens to the bodies of babies that are aborted.


  • #7269
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be offensive, but abortion advocates were calling for an "honest and open debate on abortion in this country". I don't think people shouldn't call for an honest and open debate and then tell people to shut up about what happens to the bodies of babies that are aborted.

    Whether an abortion or a miscarriage occurs, whether you are pro life or pro choice, there is the same ending for pregnancies lost before 12 weeks.
    They are passed the way I explained earlier. None of this nonsense about the family plot.

    You are the one who keeps bringing miscarriages into this.

    Nobody told you to shut up.
    You were told what happens the ‘bodies’, and you didnt like that answer so you started harping on about burials and headstones and Nazis and FGM.


  • #7270
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Whether an abortion or a miscarriage occurs, whether you are pro life or pro choice, there is the same ending for pregnancies lost before 12 weeks.
    They are passed the way I explained earlier. None of this nonsense about the family plot.

    You are the one who keeps bringing miscarriages into this.

    Nobody told you to shut up.
    You were told what happens the ‘bodies’, and you didnt like that answer so you started harping on about burials and headstones and Nazis and FGM.

    You have me confused, in one post you say people flush miscarried babies down the toilet and this is just the facts, yet in another post you say pointing out the fact that foetus remains were incinerated for heat is extremely insensitive and shameful? What gives?


  • #7271
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    http://www.ehd.org/gallery/425/Amnion-and-Umbilical-Cord

    Shows the size and length of the life in the womb for the various stages of pregnancy.


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  • #7272
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    You have me confused, in one post you say people flush miscarried babies down the toilet and this is just the facts, yet in another post you say pointing out the fact that foetus remains were incinerated for heat is extremely insensitive and shameful? What gives?

    I would presume that some wanted babies who were miscarried at hospital were incinerated for heat as well.


  • #7273
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Whether an abortion or a miscarriage occurs, whether you are pro life or pro choice, there is the same ending for pregnancies lost before 12 weeks.
    They are passed the way I explained earlier. None of this nonsense about the family plot.

    There seems to be a juxtaposition here. Some people are happy to flush pre-12 week unborn babys down the toilet while others give pre-12 week unborn babys a respectful burial, even if not always in the family plot.

    Here are stories at this link of women giving respectful burials (and a name) to miscarriaged babies even as low as 4 weeks:

    When I miscarried I passed the baby onto my pad. I was very early (4 weeks) but could tell that tissue was different and was my baby. I got a soft cloth and put him on it, I wrapped him, and buried him in our yard. Then I lit a candle and put it there alone with a piece of paper that I wrote his name on and a flower. It was my way of marking his grave. Even a year later all 3 items were still there! However, I do regret burying him there because we moved about 6 months ago. It was very hard to leave him there after being able to visit him whenever for 2 years! The last day before we left I did light his candle one more time.
    https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby .

    I think this is in tune with the reality that the unborn baby that has died had a beating heart. Are these women delusional? I think they are in tune with the reality that this was a human being.


  • #7274
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    You have me confused, in one post you say people flush miscarried babies down the toilet and this is just the facts, yet in another post you say pointing out the fact that foetus remains were incinerated for heat is extremely insensitive and shameful? What gives?

    Miscarriages at home usually go down the loo, later term miscarriages which, for whatever reason, the parents cannot or won’t take are disposed of as medical waste. They’re not chucked in a fire place, they are incinerated properly. What would you suggest that the hospitals do with them?


  • #7275
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    There seems to be a juxtaposition here. Some people are happy to flush pre-12 week unborn babys down the toilet while others give pre-12 week unborn babys a respectful burial, even if not always in the family plot.

    Here are stories at this link of women giving respectful burials to miscarriaged babies even as low as 4 weeks:
    https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby .
    I think this is in tune with the reality that the unborn baby that has died had a beating heart. Are these women delusional?

    Jesus wept.
    The woman in the OP of the forum you just linked to is keeping her lost pregnancy in her freezer. I stopped reading at that point.

    What has this got to do with repealing the 8th, please remind me?


  • #7276
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    kylith wrote: »
    Miscarriages at home usually go down the loo, later term miscarriages which, for whatever reason, the parents cannot or won’t take are disposed of as medical waste. They’re not chucked in a fire place, they are incinerated properly. What would you suggest that the hospitals do with them?

    I'm just trying to work through the obvious contradiction in claiming what happens to miscarried babies is unimportant in one post but highly offensive in a subsequent post. Either it matters how they are treated or it doesn't, surely?


  • #7277
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    kylith wrote: »
    Miscarriages at home usually go down the loo, later term miscarriages which, for whatever reason, the parents cannot or won’t take are disposed of as medical waste. They’re not chucked in a fire place, they are incinerated properly. What would you suggest that the hospitals do with them?

    Bury them in the angels plot. Some hospitals in Ireland have one and offer parents to bury their miscarried baby there, or the parents can take the baby home. Its open to the parents.


  • #7278
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    2wsxcde3 wrote:
    Sound familiar? The nazis used the corpses of jews they had gassed to heat the houses in the concentration camps.
    2wsxcde3 wrote:
    I think this is in tune with the reality that the unborn baby that has died had a beating heart. Are these women delusional?

    Comparing the disposal of medical waste to Nazis burning the corpses of Jews during the holocaust is just ridiculous.

    Whatever a women chooses to do with foetal remains is her decision. Not every woman grieves the loss of a pregnancy in the same way.


  • #7279
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    There seems to be a juxtaposition here. Some people are happy to flush pre-12 week unborn babys down the toilet while others give pre-12 week unborn babys a respectful burial, even if not always in the family plot.

    Here are stories at this link of women giving respectful burials (and a name) to miscarriaged babies even as low as 4 weeks:

    When I miscarried I passed the baby onto my pad. I was very early (4 weeks) but could tell that tissue was different and was my baby. I got a soft cloth and put him on it, I wrapped him, and buried him in our yard. Then I lit a candle and put it there alone with a piece of paper that I wrote his name on and a flower. It was my way of marking his grave. Even a year later all 3 items were still there! However, I do regret burying him there because we moved about 6 months ago. It was very hard to leave him there after being able to visit him whenever for 2 years! The last day before we left I did light his candle one more time.
    https://community.babycenter.com/post/a21467597/what_did_you_do_with_your_miscarried_baby .

    I think this is in tune with the reality that the unborn baby that has died had a beating heart. Are these women delusional? I think they are in tune with the reality that this was a human being.

    That woman is responding to the loss of a wanted pregnancy. Plenty of women miscarry at that point without even knowing they’re pregnant. The fetus goes down the toilet or into a bin on a pad; which is what the woman in your story would have done if she hadn’t realised she was pregnant.


  • #7280
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    What has this got to do with repealing the 8th, please remind me?

    We're brainwashing future generations that it is ok to kill an unborn child and flush their remains down the toilet into raw sewerage. I don't think that's a good idea. It lowers human dignity.


  • #7281
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Bury them in the angels plot. Some hospitals in Ireland have one and offer parents to bury their miscarried baby there, or the parents can take the baby home. Its open to the parents.

    Thousands of 1 and 2 inch long foetuses?


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  • #7282
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    Bury them in the angels plot. Some hospitals in Ireland have one and offer parents to bury their miscarried baby there, or the parents can take the baby home. Its open to the parents.

    Sorry but this has absolutely nothing to do with repealing the 8th.

    If you have an issue with how miscarriages are dealt with and take offense to the fact that the majority of the WORLDS population doesnt conduct funerals for pregnancies lost pre 12 weeks, then you are quite entitled to.

    But it’s absolutely nothing to do with this thread.


  • #7283
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    2wsxcde3 wrote: »
    We're brainwashing future generations that it is ok to kill an unborn child and flush their remains down the toilet into raw sewerage. I don't think that's a good idea. It lowers human dignity.

    Well I’m sorry but that’s reality the world over, for both miscarriage and abortion. And it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.


  • #7284
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    I'm just worried that in a country where we have a mental health problem that we are making the situation worse by lowering the dignity of unborn human beings. Pro-abortionists are saying that if something is a problem - get rid of it. I'm worried how that would subconsciously play out in the mind of someone who is suffering from depression and on the brink of taking their own life.

    We should be sending the message that life has value. And even if something is unwanted, there are other options available that offer a way out that doesn't end in the loss of a life.


  • #7285
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Sorry but this has absolutely nothing to do with repealing the 8th.

    If you have an issue with how miscarriages are dealt with and take offense to the fact that the majority of the WORLDS population doesnt conduct funerals for pregnancies lost pre 12 weeks, then you are quite entitled to.

    But it’s absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

    Do you not think it is interesting that in the UK they are banning the burning of aborted babies or miscarried babies for heat, but not banning aborting them in the first place? I think it shows we have a deep seated concern as to how all forms of human life are treated and that as much as the repeal campaign wish to reduce the value of a fetus to zero, the average person doesn't believe it is like 'medical waste'.


  • #7286
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Do you not think it is interesting that in the UK they are banning the burning of aborted babies or miscarried babies for heat, but not banning aborting them in the first place? I think it shows we have a deep seated concern as to how all forms of human life are treated and that as much as the repeal campaign wish to reduce the value of a fetus to zero, the average person doesn't believe it is like 'medical waste'.

    This is absolutely nothing to do with repeal.
    It’s nothing to do with being pro life.
    Its nothing to do with the value of a fetus. It’s impartial.
    It a factual account of how miscarriages are medically managed for ALL women. Not the pro choice women, not the pro life women, all of them.
    If you have an issue with this, then I suppose it’s the medical counsel you’ll have to take it up with.
    But it isn’t anything to do with this referendum.


  • #7287
    Andrew Beef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Andrew Beef


    The issue that many people have with the issue is the idea that abortion will evolve into a method of contraception.

    That would be truly shocking in my view.


  • #7288
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    2wsxcde3 wrote:
    Pro-abortionists are saying that if something is a problem - get rid of it. I'm worried how that would subconsciously play out in the mind of someone who is suffering from depression and on the brink of taking their own life.
    2wsxcde3 wrote:
    We should be sending the message that life has value. And even if something is unwanted, there are other options available that offer a way out that doesn't end in the loss of a life.

    I've yet to hear anyone call themselves pro-abortion. Deciding to have an abortion in a no win situation. A decision reached by thoughtful consideration.

    You use the word option but want to restrict the options of women in Ireland and effect their maternity care.


  • #7289
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Andrew Beef wrote: »
    The issue that many people have with the issue is the idea that abortion will evolve into a method of contraception.

    That would be truly shocking in my view.

    I agree.
    But having done my research and learning of the invasive, physically and emotionally draining procedure it involves I know it’s a decision a woman would never take lightly.
    It’s a position a woman would never put herself in unless she had absolutely no other choice.
    No one would want to go through such a thing over and over again.
    I’m confident it won’t be used as a means of contraception.


  • #7290
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Andrew Beef wrote:
    The issue that many people have with the issue is the idea that abortion will evolve into a method of contraception.

    That seems like a very ignorant view of abortion if that's what pro life people believe.

    That any woman would choose to have an abortion as a method of contraception.

    What women would seek abortion like an errand to run without serious consideration.


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  • #7291
    2wsxcde3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 380 ✭✭2wsxcde3


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    You use the word option but want to restrict the options of women in Ireland and effect their maternity care.

    The only reason I want to restrict the option for the woman is because abortion restricts the option for the unborn to live. I think women should be able to do whatever they want, but not affect the option of the unborn who wants to live. If you give the option to one, you take it away from the other. Its not easy. But i think the option to live trumps the option of not wanting to be pregnant for nine months. Life trumps all else. I know this is hard for some people, but the unborn should get to have their choice too.


This discussion has been closed.
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