Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

Alkers · 07-02-2018 11:18am

engineerfear1 wrote:

Is this naive thinking? I've never had to negotiate salary before, but don't see why they wouldn't offer the going rate if I am performing well.

Not really but you need to be prepared to jump ship or you could well end up settling for a much smaller raise.

The Rape of Lucretia · 07-02-2018 9:09pm

engineerfear1 wrote: »

Is this naive thinking? I've never had to negotiate salary before, but don't see why they wouldn't offer the going rate if I am performing well.

They might indeed, and it is worth the try. But just consider other options for the case that you dont get it. While it might be the market rate, and it may well be the case that they wont get someone else without paying considerable more, have recruitment costs, etc if they lost you, some employers will still baulk at a 20% increase. They may take their chances that they will get someone more cheaply. Or may not be well informed on the market rate and misjudge that they should be paying you more. It depends a lot on what the competition is like locally. If remote-ish, they may make that misjudgement. If in Dublin, they will probably be more aware of the rates and recognise they have to pay it.

Turbulent Bill · 07-02-2018 11:59pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

Not really but you need to be prepared to jump ship or you could well end up settling for a much smaller raise.

This. Employers generally won't give significant rises unless there's a genuine chance of you leaving, and might call your bluff. I'd find out what your actual market rate is, and be prepared to move if you want to get it.

There's no mystery to salary negotiation. Emphasise your value to the company, what the market is paying and have a bottom-line figure in your head. If you're not happy with what you get and can't push any further, accept it anyway and look for something else.

Decoda · 08-02-2018 12:21am

Civil Engineering Technician with an NCEA Certificate in Civil Engineering (Level 6) and Diploma (Level 7) in Highway Engineering from the early 90's with 25 years experience. First 10 years was with a Semi State working on heavy civil projects before i moved to a local authority. Salary of 59k plus a 3k allowance for additional duties.

D.

engineerfear1 · 08-02-2018 11:24pm

I've checked out the Hays salary guide for 2018 and they are estimating €40-50k for a Senior Design Engineer with 6-9 years experience, and that's throughout the country. That's a good bit different to the €49k that was mentioned earlier for someone with 5 years experience.

Are these salary guides anyway accurate?

Squall Leonhart · 08-02-2018 11:56pm

engineerfear1 wrote:

I've checked out the Hays salary guide for 2018 and they are estimating â‚¬40-50k for a Senior Design Engineer with 6-9 years experience, and that's throughout the country. That's a good bit different to the â‚¬49k that was mentioned earlier for someone with 5 years experience.

The 49K mentioned earlier was my own. I work in the role of a civil/structural technician, but have a qualification as an architectural technologist. I think a combination of good fortune and a varied career has helped me. I have 5 years experience in architectural roles and almost 2 in my new found (unqualified!) direction.

09-02-2018 10:01am

engineerfear1 wrote: »

I understand what you're saying, but do you not think that management would consider matching what the market is offering?

..............

Unlikely IMO

They'll quite fancy their chances of hiring a lad / ladette with 2 years experience that they can start on a lower rate and capitalise on that person working their bum off and delivering lots and lots as they do so.

If employers gave advertised market rates to current staff rather than small annual increments the job market would be a very different place, quite likely a worse place IMO.

godtabh · 09-02-2018 11:06pm

I'm an associate of a company. Hiring is tough. Its an employees market out there. Was looking at a lad recently. 4 years experience. Wasnt overlay impressed with him. No ambition for CEng just yet. One of his first questions was about money.

We were given a salary range by the recruiter. He actually want to start negotiations at the high end. He want €45k + benefits. Thanked him for his time and let him go.

Told the recruiter. He went back to the interviewee. He told his boss he had a job lined up with us, got a counter offer and was off the market. Every ones time wasted but his. I bullet dodged but just shows the market now.

Alkers · 10-02-2018 12:03am

godtabh wrote:

Every ones time wasted but his. I bullet dodged but just shows the market now.

You can't blame him though, if you had offered him what he was looking for, he might have been willing to move and if his company had kept up with salary
trends, he wouldn't have had to go looking. Swings and roundabouts - when wages were being decimated during the recession and there were loads of candidates around, there would have been plenty of unsuccessful candidates who may have felt they wasted time interviewing for a job which they weren't then offered.

godtabh · 10-02-2018 12:52am

Simona1986 wrote: »

You can't blame him though, if you had offered him what he was looking for, he might have been willing to move and if his company had kept up with salary
trends, he wouldn't have had to go looking. Swings and roundabouts - when wages were being decimated during the recession and there were loads of candidates around, there would have been plenty of unsuccessful candidates who may have felt they wasted time interviewing for a job which they weren't then offered.

It’s not sunstainable. He had a questionable cv/experience looking for far to much money. I think we’ll be turning down Work in the future.

Alkers · 10-02-2018 2:02am

godtabh wrote:

Itâ€™s not sunstainable. He had a questionable cv/experience looking for far to much money. I think weâ€™ll be turning down Work in the future.

Only at the rates your tendering at. If we can't afford to pay engineers the same as IT professionals, accountants etc., engineering firms need to charge more. Rather than turning away work, charge more for it.

onrail · 11-02-2018 1:46am

godtabh wrote: »

I think we’ll be turning down Work in the future.

Bizarre. It’d be interesting to get industry leaders from accountancy, IT etc to read through this thread and share their opinions.

Currently in New Zealand where business is ticking along nicely. €70k salary with 6.5 years experience, 25-30% margins. Consultancies aren’t cutting the legs from underneath each other.... shows is can be done if the industry finally copped onto themselves!

Lleyn elec · 11-02-2018 11:26am

godtabh wrote: »

I'm an associate of a company. Hiring is tough. Its an employees market out there. Was looking at a lad recently. 4 years experience. Wasnt overlay impressed with him. No ambition for CEng just yet. One of his first questions was about money.

We were given a salary range by the recruiter. He actually want to start negotiations at the high end. He want €45k + benefits. Thanked him for his time and let him go.

Told the recruiter. He went back to the interviewee. He told his boss he had a job lined up with us, got a counter offer and was off the market. Every ones time wasted but his. I bullet dodged but just shows the market now.

Would most people not be on 45k+ with four years experience?

onrail · 11-02-2018 8:43pm

Lleyn elec wrote: »

Would most people not be on 45k+ with four years experience?

In boom/optimistic times, it's a possibility (if you're good) - but in the last 10 years, you'd be lucky to be on 35-40k with that experience.

11-02-2018 9:08pm

Fair play to the chap..... 4 years experience & he has no interest in being flogged by some crowd who reckon 45k+ isn't a realistic salary and seem to think not wanting to go chartered is to be frowned on.

His current employers are best placed to judge his value and they reckon it was worth keeping him & stumped up the cash.

11-02-2018 9:14pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

Only at the rates your tendering at. If we can't afford to pay engineers the same as IT professionals, accountants etc., engineering firms need to charge more. Rather than turning away work, charge more for it.

Accountants and civil engineers will always be faced with the two a penny thing..... they aren't the most difficult qualification to attain & they're not at all niche.

The big4 take in loads every year and retain some after the 4 year gig.... the rest are well trained but not scarce.

Plenty of poorly paid IT folk out there too.

onrail · 11-02-2018 10:15pm

Augeo wrote: »

Accountants and civil engineers will always be faced with the two a penny thing..... they aren't the most difficult qualification to attain & they're not at all niche.

The big4 take in loads every year and retain some after the 4 year gig.... the rest are well trained but not scarce.

Chartered Accountants are typically paid substantially more than Chartered Engineers. A measure of the relative difficulty of the qualification route?

12-02-2018 1:35am

Hard to know really.

Outside of Dublin there are no shortage of chartered accountants on not much more than the 45/50k mentioned in here that the civil folk reckon isn't rewarding their skillset.

A friend left Dublin for cork in 2005 and he was horrified at the disparity in wages. A relative (big4 trained & chartered) has yet to break 55k basic.

I think we are just seeing the effect of churning out graduates year after year coupled with the recession not being too long ago.

Chartered eng seems to be big in the civil game. In the pharma/bio pharma spheres it's not so much as genuine 4+ years process/equipment engineers are harder to come by. When you locate some "are you chartered" or "planning to go about?" Being chartered isn't a question that is asked.

I did some work in a large med device plant.... a few hundred engineers on site. That place seemed to have a fondness for chartered too.... it was another hoop to get people to jump through. I've always noticed really decent engineers can carve out their own career without jumping through hoops if they have a bit if something about them to complement their engineering acumen.

There's the very real abuse of the chartered thing going on too.... an almost plageuristic, fantasy element to what many present as their work.

I've seen some folk get chartered engineer when chartered project manager would be more apt.

godtabh · 14-02-2018 11:36am

Simona1986 wrote: »

Only at the rates your tendering at. If we can't afford to pay engineers the same as IT professionals, accountants etc., engineering firms need to charge more. Rather than turning away work, charge more for it.

It’s a race to the bottom. Public procurement has forced this.

Private clients are just as bad due to access to finance. All well and good tendering higher but that is just the same as turning down Work. You won’t get it

14-02-2018 1:56pm

The OP .......

SteadyNed wrote: »

Folks,
I’m 5 years working as a Civil/Geotechnical Engineer in a consultancy environment in Ireland – not yet chartered, but planning to be within 6 months.
We need to open a discussion about the White Elephant in the Civil Engineering profession – money. Having worked for 5 years in the industry, I have a full appreciation of pay scales in the profession, and frankly, it’s terrible. ...............

The reason .....

godtabh wrote: »

It’s a race to the bottom. Public procurement has forced this.

Private clients are just as bad due to access to finance. All well and good tendering higher but that is just the same as turning down Work. You won’t get it

Folks getting chartered won't result in higher salaries either of course, just a new baseline for what employers can expect for €50k.

My applied maths teacher told us in 1995 ........... don't do civil eng if you want decent pay, two a penny he reckoned.

Alkers · 14-02-2018 4:35pm

godtabh wrote: »

It’s a race to the bottom. Public procurement has forced this.

Why is it so specific to our industry so? Do finance, IT, legal firms etc not have to tender for Government Contracts?

Dardania · 14-02-2018 5:58pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

godtabh wrote: »

It’s a race to the bottom. Public procurement has forced this.

Why is it so specific to our industry so? Do finance, IT, legal firms etc not have to tender for Government Contracts?

Less of them rendering for work than engineers

onrail · 14-02-2018 8:47pm

Dardania wrote: »

Less of them rendering for work than engineers

Is there actually though? Any stats?

14-02-2018 8:54pm

Simona1986 wrote: »

Why is it so specific to our industry so? Do finance, IT, legal firms etc not have to tender for Government Contracts?

Lots of relatively poorly paid IT & finance folk about too.

There's no shortage of civil engineers willing to work for quite low money. The building / construction game is notoriously boom & bust activity wise too of course.

The likes of PM, BAM & Sisks are experts at selling folk positions on low remuneration. They are a big dial in setting market rates.

onrail · 14-02-2018 9:06pm

Augeo wrote: »

Lots of relatively poorly paid IT & finance folk about too.

There's no shortage of civil engineers willing to work for quite low money. The building / construction game is notoriously boom & bust activity wise too of course.

The likes of PM, BAM & Sisks are experts at selling folk positions on low remuneration. They are a big dial in setting market rates.

Suggests that mindset & culture plays as much of a role as supply/demand

14-02-2018 9:12pm

Perhaps.... in a game that was recently enough severely hit by the recession there's likely enough out there to believe it's better to be working on 80% of what they should be on rather than not getting the gig.

I know PM lowball folk who are seriously in demand so I can imagine their speel to folk with 5 years experience where 50k isn't par for the course.... not to mention the are you chartered sh1te.

Squall Leonhart · 14-02-2018 10:04pm

Augeo wrote:

The likes of PM, BAM & Sisks are experts at selling folk positions on low remuneration. They are a big dial in setting market rates.

To be honest, having worked for one of those type companies and offered work with another (as a contractor), the money was pretty damn good (from my perspective) @ 35/hr in design roles as (opposed to site)

14-02-2018 10:30pm

35/hour is quite poor for a contract engineer.

Working 40 hours a week, taking your 10 public holidays off & 20 actual days off you'd invoice 65k.

Add in the temporary contract element, paying into a pension etc .... it's indicative of the thread topic IMO.

For comparison... http://www.jobcontax.com/job-details/Graduate-CSV-Engineers-Ireland/Ireland/JO-1801-6330 ...

One year graduate CSV experience and you'd likely get 35/hour. There wouldn't be much challenge to that role.

Squall Leonhart · 15-02-2018 8:40am

I hear you, but, 65K for the year was what I personally considered a great salary. Especially since it meant being paid for every hour worked, which was typically 45-50 a week. When coupled with 48% tax relief in pension contributions (director of ltd company for tax purposes - through Icon Accounting) it was very healthy.

When I went looking for full time salaried architectural roles, I was offered abysmal money, 25-30K by lots of places.

15-02-2018 9:08am

That's essentially what the thread is about, civil eng money is poor.

In comparison to poor salaries low hourly rates (relative to what other industries have to pay) seem great when they are quite poor.

BTW, given paye, prsi & usc you were getting more than 48% relief on pension contribs to an executive pension

Eng86 · 16-02-2018 6:02pm

engineerfear1 wrote: »

I've checked out the Hays salary guide for 2018 and they are estimating €40-50k for a Senior Design Engineer with 6-9 years experience, and that's throughout the country. That's a good bit different to the €49k that was mentioned earlier for someone with 5 years experience.

Are these salary guides anyway accurate?

Do you have a copy of the 2018 Hays Salary Guide?

Dardania · 27-02-2018 1:30pm

EI's Engineering 2018 report is out: http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/communications/publications/Engineering-2018-Report.pdf
On page 8 it has a table of salaries based on years working

Dunphus · 27-02-2018 2:36pm

Dardania wrote: »

EI's Engineering 2018 report is out: http://www.engineersireland.ie/EngineersIreland/media/SiteMedia/communications/publications/Engineering-2018-Report.pdf
On page 8 it has a table of salaries based on years working

That report wasn't particularly informative with regard to salary but watch this space:

Note on Page 10

A full Engineers Ireland Salary Survey 2018 report is available to Engineers Ireland members and can
be downloaded from the members’ area of www.engineersireland.ie. This report includes detailed
analysis of salaries and other benefits (pensions, bonuses etc.) according to engineering discipline,
employment sector and much more.

That salary survey isn't available to me in the members area yet but hopefully they put it up shortly

matthew1998 · 03-03-2018 4:04pm

First year un-denominated engineering student in NUIG. I'm torn between civil, mechanical and energy systems. I'm hoping this 2018 salary report shines some light on my situation. (I know money isn't everything, but it definitely a deciding factor).

As a matter of interest, what was civil engineering salaries like in 2007 (the glory years

) ?

Dardania · 03-03-2018 4:34pm

matthew1998 wrote: »

First year un-denominated engineering student in NUIG. I'm torn between civil, mechanical and energy systems. I'm hoping this 2018 salary report shines some light on my situation. (I know money isn't everything, but it definitely a deciding factor).

As a matter of interest, what was civil engineering salaries like in 2007 (the glory years ) ?

You’ve organised them lowest to highest paid

matthew1998 · 03-03-2018 4:59pm

Dardania wrote: »

You’ve organised them lowest to highest paid

I've also organised them with the coolest first

Energy Systems seems interesting. A combination of Civil, Mech and Electrical.
Anyways I wont stray off topic...:D

Civil still seems to have a lot going for it. We had a guest lecturer saying Irish Water is investing 16 billion into water infrastructure. Perhaps water engineering will see a spike in demand and salary?

03-03-2018 9:36pm

If you have the aptitude for it mechanical is the best of the 3 qualification wise IMO.... it's not very subjective though.

Civil has and will always be subject to boom and bust cycles.

Mechanical opens so many doors and moving industry in the future is easier.

Energy systems might be a combination of civil, mech and electrical stuff but you'd be limited enough imo ..... a qualified mechanical or electrical eng could get into an energy systems type gig as a graduate or later down the line.

An energy systems engineer won't have as much flexibility.

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

matthew1998 · 03-03-2018 9:52pm

Augeo wrote: »

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

03-03-2018 10:04pm

matthew1998 wrote: »

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

Those salary surveys are good for a laugh really .... you can see the madness on the following 3

Newly Qualified Accountant 50,000 - 55,000
Financial Accountant 50,000 - 55,000
Senior Fund Accountant (>3 years’ experience) 35,000 - 45,000

Regarding engineering ...."Salaries in the Engineering arena are relatively stable, with quite standardised rates across the various sectors" :rolleyes:

Civil Engineer 60,000 - 80,000 .... so civil eng started on €60k in 2007, nope, that'd be lads with 5/10 years experience

Also there's a mix of contract and permanent roles in the figures

Commissioning Engineer 45,000 - 60,000 ..... I was on €38/hour with little previous experience in 2007 as a commissioning & validation engineer on contract..... they actually have this down for that .... Validation Engineer (1-3 years’ experience) 31,000 - 42,000 .....

It's a survey from Brightwater ..... I'll say no more.

Dardania · 03-03-2018 10:12pm

matthew1998 wrote: »

Augeo wrote: »

If you can (aptitude, interest and want to) go the mech route.

Yeah, but I think I would be better at/enjoy Civil more. Mech has all the money and opportunities, but looking at the following years modules in each field,civil looks more interesting. Hard to know though.

Was just looking at some salary surveys and seen 2007 one. Civil engineers were €60-€80k while mech was about €15k lower.

source: https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/previous-years/salary-survey-2007.pdf?sfvrsn=4 (pg17)

Would be interesting if Civil rose to those crazy levels again

It sounds like you had a very convincing talk from a semi-state representative. Many engineers that work in the private sector dismiss such semi-states for not paying well. Precisely as Augeo says, civil engineers are subject to boom and bust of finance availability. So if you want stay in Ireland, with our current and foreseeable political masters, your wage will be subject to the same ups and down.
You can of course travel to earn more - it's not for everyone but at some point when you're with a family, reasonable wages are valued more, than your job satisfaction in the short term...
So do what you want (you will anyway) but bear in mind civil engineers are one of the lower remunerated engineers, so try to plan for future flexibility of employment.

Edit: I've been thinking about this for a few months, as to why I reckon civil is paid less than mech or systems etc. And my theory is, in addition to the nature of the work being cyclical, with civil, you solve the problem at design stage, practically completely. All the contractor needs to do is implement your design exactly as in the drawing.
Whereas with anything with a system element, anything active, like mechanical or energy systems, or electrical or instrumentation & controls, it is best to have the designer for commissioning stage too - unless your design is 100% the same in practice as what the contractor built last time, you're needed. Systems are fickle to get working well - that is how you increase your value.

03-03-2018 10:39pm

Dardania wrote: »

...... like mechanical or energy systems, or electrical or instrumentation & controls, it is best to have the designer for commissioning stage too - unless your design is 100% the same in practice as what the contractor built last time, you're needed. Systems are fickle to get working well - that is how you increase your value.

Nail on head.
In the med device game (high volume and not short of bean counters) I've worked on projects where the project eng was effectively overseeing the design (bespoke stuff from specialist manufacturers) and would then also oversee the install and perform the commissioning role.

In pharma/bio pharma (you'd not find many bean counters on capital projects to be fair) the commissioning folk are hired shortly before FAT but the design guy works with them even though the design element is finished.

But in both example the design guy is needed to the end.

Lots of design guys wouldn't fancy taking on the FAT and the commissioning gig and loads of commissioning guys wouldn't fancy taking on a design role.

A guy I worked with had a similar theory, he reckoned the closer you are to the end / to delivery the more crucially you are deemed to be. I dunno, I know lots of p1ss poor commissioning folk and the design folk the likes the big 2 (I won't name them) employ are often worse than the worst.

Eng86 · 09-03-2018 1:13pm

The new Engineers Ireland Salary survey is online now on the website.

matthew1998 · 09-03-2018 9:27pm

Interesting results. Civil seems very close to everything else.

09-03-2018 9:48pm

matthew1998 wrote: »

Interesting results. Civil seems very close to everything else.

Have you seen anyone post in this topic " Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money" suggesting that the remuneration for civil is very close to everything else?
That's a serious question btw that I reckon you should consider as you seem to see wages etc as quite a significant factor in the choice you are making

matthew1998 · 09-03-2018 10:43pm

Augeo wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

09-03-2018 10:47pm

matthew1998 wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

It might be worth your while

You seem slow to be enlightened actually.

matthew1998 wrote: »

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

They're not.

Civil is not well paid compared to mechanical or electrical.

Eng Ireland survey is just that, a survey and it's as flawed as any other like the brighwater rubbish posted recently.

Dardania · 09-03-2018 10:56pm

Augeo wrote: »

matthew1998 wrote: »

I haven't read the entire thread, so please enlighten me if you're up to date on the 13 pages :rolleyes: . Money is a factor for me, but no the be all and end all.

It might be worth your while
You seem slow to be enlightened actually.

matthew1998 wrote: »

In fact, now that I've seen all engineering disciplines are very close in terms of wages money won't be a factor at all.

They're not.

Civil is not well paid compared to mechanical or electrical.

Eng Ireland survey is just that, a survey and it's as flawed as any other like the brighwater rubbish posted recently.

Agreed - it's a moment in time - the numbers in the depth of the recession were a different story
Matthew1998, as you're firm your choice of major/specialisation choice bearing in mind this survey, it sounds like civil might be where your passion is, so go for it. Just remember transferable skills if you need to earn more e.g. a lot of civil engineers skill up to be project managers quite sucessfully

matthew1998 · 09-03-2018 11:03pm

Thanks for the insight Guys. I shall ruminate you're words of wisdom.

Eng86 · 12-03-2018 2:40pm

My advice to anyone in college etc looking at engineering. Pick the field you want to do, if you have an interest in what your doing you will have a better chance of getting good at it. Being good at the job is probably one of the more important things when it comes to getting a good salary. You dont want to get stuck doing something you've no interest in either.

Hooks Golf Handicap · 29-03-2018 1:35pm

Eng86 wrote: »

The new Engineers Ireland Salary survey is online now on the website.

Anyone care to throw up an external link for a non-member please

Civil Engineering - We need to talk about money

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