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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #1982
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Adopted children rarely if ever complain that their upbringing was a disadvantage to them.

    Of course they don't, but then in this country most of them come from far poorer countries. You know, those ones in the third world that you're concerned are colonising us. Reading this thread, apparently unwanted Irish children are rarely eligible for local adoption, end up being bounced from one foster home to the next and do end up at a serious disadvantage as a result. Of course they're still better off than their counterparts from the previous generations who would have enjoyed all the charms of the mother and baby homes with thanks to our generous state. We have a pretty lousy track record when it comes to orphans.


  • #1983
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe being so pro-choice you take a more lenient view of rapists? Let them do whatever they want with their own bodies? Sure we can always abort the rapist's children before they are born.

    Pontificating against Muslims and the third world and the going all 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' isn't really helping your argument there.


  • #1984
    corks finest
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,966 ✭✭✭corks finest


    Delirium wrote: »
    Pretty difficult without a Tardis tbh.

    A Christian cannot agree with it


  • #1985
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Delirium wrote: »
    Pretty difficult without a Tardis tbh.

    Bit of juvenile thanks fishing - really ?, have you never heard of the phrase should never have been born ? I've yet to hear an adopted person claim they should have been aborted instead.


  • #1986
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    smacl wrote: »
    Of course they're still better off than their counterparts from the previous generations who would have enjoyed all the charms of the mother and baby homes with thanks to our generous state. We have a pretty lousy track record when it comes to orphans.

    If you have a genuine concern for the well being of children, why would you think the preferred final solution is to kill them while they are still unborn children and at their most defenseless instead - not a very logical argument for abortion.


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  • #1987
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,038 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Bit of juvenile thanks fishing - really ?, have you never heard of the phrase should never have been born ? I've yet to hear an adopted person claim they should have been aborted instead.

    No more juvenile than your own post.

    Adopted or not, generally people tend not to state that it would have been better if they'd never been born/ aborted. A persons life would have to be pretty miserable or they suffer from depression to wish they were aborted instead of alive.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1988
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Delirium wrote: »
    No more juvenile than your own post.

    Adopted or not, generally people tend not to state that it would have been better if they'd never been born/ aborted. A persons life would have to be pretty miserable or they suffer from depression to wish they were aborted instead of alive.

    It was posted in response to the absurd implications that abortion is a kinder option for children who might be born into economically disadvantaged circumstances.


  • #1989
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Good old George Soros, the favourite hate figure for the far right. You're keeping some interesting company with that dig.
    Whats all this "far right" nonsense about?
    Oh, here we go; from your link..
    “It is a witch-hunt being pursued by authoritarian, rightwing populists,” Jacek Kucharczyk of Poland’s Institute of Public Affairs – which receives some Soros funding – said last year.
    Soros pays people to say how nice he is, if anyone disagrees he calls them "the far right". He uses his money for subterfuge and political lobbying in various countries, including our own.
    He has been disowned by Hungary, because he is constantly critical of his own native country. Orbans govt. is sensible and well respected there, because he is not afraid to stand up for the people of Hungary. And if you think that is "a far right country" then you must be very "far left" yourself.
    smacl wrote: »
    Reading this thread, apparently unwanted Irish children are rarely eligible for local adoption, end up being bounced from one foster home to the next and do end up at a serious disadvantage as a result.
    Can you point out where this claim was made?
    Otherwise withdraw the allegation please.

    For many years there has been a shortage of children for adoption.
    By harking back to various events of the 19th Century you are trying to muddy the waters of this discussion with irrelevancies.


  • #1990
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    smacl wrote: »
    Coming back to abortion, do you seriously believe that forcing women to have unwanted children will be of net benefit to our society? That we should force woman to have more children because we're running out of kids? Seriously?

    nobody is being forced to have children, they just aren't allowed to kill the unborn in ireland unless absolutely necessary, the same in relation to any human being. as it should be.
    smacl wrote: »
    In case you haven't noticed, we have a homeless crisis in this country. As a society we're already failing to look after very many young people. The sad truth is that this is the scenario that those who are unwanted find themselves in.

    and as much as that is an issue, it can be improved with political will. it is not a problem requiring abortion on demand as the solution, given there are no such problems requiring abortion on demand as the solution.
    smacl wrote: »
    And if you read my posts you'll note that I've stated that abortion should be an exceptional event and am not advocating as a routine method of birth control. Nor is anyone for that matter, how ever much the pro-life brigade would like to see it.

    you may not be advocating for it in such circumstances but i don't believe that "neither is anyone"
    the likely reality is that birth control and contraception are the main reason for abortion on demand being advocated for, whether anyone of us like it or not. what's worse is that if some have their way, those of us against it will have to pay for it out of our tax money, which could actually go to helping children instead, or funding legitimate forms of contraception such that it could be at a reduced price or even free.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1991
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,038 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    @eotr
    by denying woman an abortion, you are forcing them to continue with the pregnancy.

    how do you propose a woman terminate a pregnancy, if not by abortion?

    if you're suggesting that abortion is being used as birth control, then surely better sex education will reduce abortion even where it's available on request?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #1992
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Delirium wrote: »
    @eotr
    by denying woman an abortion, you are forcing them to continue with the pregnancy.

    i'm afraid i don't see it that way, given the fact that it involves a human being who is just as entitled to live as the woman carying them, unless there are extreme circumstances requiring otherwise.
    Delirium wrote: »
    how do you propose a woman terminate a pregnancy, if not by abortion?

    i don't propose any alternative. in my view and currently in the state's view she cannot kill the unborn except in medically necessary circumstances, and while abortion is the only option then the right to life of the unborn must be upheld unless medical reasons require otherwise.
    Delirium wrote: »
    if you're suggesting that abortion is being used as birth control, then surely better sex education will reduce abortion even where it's available on request?

    absolutely better sex education is necessary and i'm in full support of it. there is no legitimate reason why it isn't in all schools and isn't up to a high standard. i still won't be supporting the availability of abortion on demand in ireland howeveer.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1993
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,038 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm afraid i don't see it that way, given the fact that it involves a human being who is just as entitled to live as the woman carying them, unless there are extreme circumstances requiring otherwise.
    I'm not disputing the unborn exists within the woman. But unless you're privy to some new groundbreaking procedure in the realm of pregnancies you're denying the basics of human biology by saying the woman isn't being forced to continue with the pregnancy.

    She currently faces 14 years in prison is she aborts in Ireland. She legally can't choose to terminate therefore she is forced to continue with the pregnancy.

    i don't propose any alternative. in my view and currently in the state's view she cannot kill the unborn except in medically necessary circumstances, and while abortion is the only option then the right to life of the unborn must be upheld unless medical reasons require otherwise.
    Terminating a pregnancy requires an abortion, be it a pill or otherwise. That's a medical reason, it just happens to be one you don't approve of.
    absolutely better sex education is necessary and i'm in full support of it. there is no legitimate reason why it isn't in all schools and isn't up to a high standard. i still won't be supporting the availability of abortion on demand in ireland howeveer.
    I was addressing your claim that abortion is used as birth control. Which I find hard to believe tbh. You honestly believe women forgo condoms and other contraceptives in favour of having abortions?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #1994
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Can you point out where this claim was made?
    Otherwise withdraw the allegation please.

    For many years there has been a shortage of children for adoption.
    By harking back to various events of the 19th Century you are trying to muddy the waters of this discussion with irrelevancies.

    Here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. And the mother and baby homes, such as the Bon Secours in Tuam, were active until the 1960s (i.e. 20th century) so you seem to be 100 years adrift there too. C'mon Rec, keep up ;)


  • #1995
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Delirium wrote: »
    I'm not disputing the unborn exists within the woman. But unless you're privy to some new groundbreaking procedure in the realm of pregnancies you're denying the basics of human biology by saying the woman isn't being forced to continue with the pregnancy.

    She currently faces 14 years in prison is she aborts in Ireland. She legally can't choose to terminate therefore she is forced to continue with the pregnancy.

    again given the nature of the issue i am not in a position to agree with your viewpoint. she is criminally prohibited from taking a life is how i see it.
    Delirium wrote: »
    Terminating a pregnancy requires an abortion, be it a pill or otherwise. That's a medical reason, it just happens to be one you don't approve of.

    i would disagree, unless her life needs saving or she is at risk of permanent injury or disability, or it's a case of FFA or some other reason the baby will not live to term or can't viably be caried to term, then her reason for having an abortion would not in my view constitute a medical reason.
    Delirium wrote: »
    I was addressing your claim that abortion is used as birth control. Which I find hard to believe tbh. You honestly believe women forgo condoms and other contraceptives in favour of having abortions?

    in my view it would be another form of contraception on top of the others, rather then being the main option for which other forms of contraception would be forgone in favour of it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1996
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    end of the road wrote: »
    absolutely better sex education is necessary and i'm in full support of it. there is no legitimate reason why it isn't in all schools and isn't up to a high standard. i still won't be supporting the availability of abortion on demand in ireland howeveer.

    Apparently those TV programmes "16 and Pregnant" etc which are a real life documentary of what a young teenage girl goes through have been very effective at reducing teenage pregnancy rates.

    It does not have to be better sex education in schools etc, just something as simple as a TV program.


  • #1997
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    You are force woman to birth. Fact. Doesn't matter what your point of view is. Sorry.


  • #1998
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    pilly wrote: »
    You are force woman to birth. Fact. Doesn't matter what your point of view is. Sorry.

    i'm not forcing a woman to birth. i don't force women to do anything.
    currently the state effectively shares my viewpoint by prohibiting the killing of the unborn within it bar extreme circumstances.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1999
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    pilly wrote: »
    You are force woman to birth. Fact. Doesn't matter what your point of view is. Sorry.

    This is a bit like claiming the state forces people to pay taxes, not to steal, and not to kill other human beings, and not to abuse children.
    You can still do all these things if you choose to.


  • #2000
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    This is a bit like claiming the state forces people to pay taxes, not to steal, and not to kill other human beings, and not to abuse children.
    You can still do all these things if you choose to.

    And nature forces us to grow old too!!!


  • #2001
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. And the mother and baby homes...
    Those are examples of people saying there is a shortage of babies available for adoption in Ireland.
    That's a far cry from your assertion that they weren't "eligible" for adoption, or that there were too many and they were growing up disadvantaged, being bounced around foster homes and orphanages.
    Those kids who are ineligible for adoption are generally not babies, but older kids who have been taken into care by social workers, mostly while the parents work through addiction or other problems. It is hoped that they will return to the parent at some point, but will need foster care in the meantime.

    Can we agree now that..
    (a) There is no surplus of unwanted babies. Only a shortage of wanted babies.
    (b) There is no danger of famine any time soon, due to the high numbers of hungry children in the country.


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  • #2002
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Delirium wrote: »
    I'm not disputing the unborn exists within the woman. But unless you're privy to some new groundbreaking procedure in the realm of pregnancies you're denying the basics of human biology by saying the woman isn't being forced to continue with the pregnancy.
    She is being 'forced' to continue with her pregnancy ... just like everyone else is 'forced' to not harm or kill others.


  • #2003
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    end of the road wrote: »
    i'm not forcing a woman to birth. i don't force women to do anything.
    currently the state effectively shares my viewpoint by prohibiting the killing of the unborn within it bar extreme circumstances.

    the state effectively shares your viewpoint of not im my backyard;)


  • #2004
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,916 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    Those are examples of people saying there is a shortage of babies available for adoption in Ireland. That's a far cry from your assertion that they weren't "eligible" for adoption, or that there were too many and they were growing up disadvantaged, being bounced around foster homes and orphanages.

    Really? Is that the conclusion you arrive at reading the points below?
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    our care system is flooded with children who will never know a home. Domestic adoption is non existent in this country, so unfortunately, long term foster care is the best they can hope for. Children with additional needs are even harder to place in long term foster care, because there are very few fosterers willing to take them on.
    Are you aware that giving a child up for adoption in Ireland means a life sentence in the foster care system as adoption is now at a standstill in Ireland?
    There is extremely limited domestic adoption in Ireland. We have long term fostering in its place. The option to adopt is only available after long term fostering of the child.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    as has already been stated twice now, domestic adoption isn’t available here.


  • #2005
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,533 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    This is a bit like claiming the state forces people to pay taxes, not to steal, and not to kill other human beings, and not to abuse children.
    You can still do all these things if you choose to.

    and thankfully face consiquences for doing them as it should be.
    uptherebels wrote: »
    the state effectively shares your viewpoint of not im my backyard;)

    this is incorrect. i don't have such a view and the state doesn't have such a view.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #2006
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    end of the road wrote: »
    and thankfully face consiquences for doing them as it should be.



    this is incorrect. i don't have such a view and the state doesn't have such a view.

    It is ok with both you and the state for irish women to have abortions.They must just pass a geographical boundary.
    You can deny it all you want. You posting history shows the truth


  • #2007
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    uptherebels wrote: »
    It is ok with both you and the state for irish women to have abortions.They must just pass a geographical boundary.
    You can deny it all you want. You posting history shows the truth

    Unfortunately, some Irish people can and do travel abroad to do all sorts of illegal things to children and other things that are illegal in this country, in practice the state or anyone else can do little about it, as it's outside the state's jurisdiction, and within the jurisdiction of another country.


  • #2008
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    smacl wrote: »
    Really? Is that the conclusion you arrive at reading the points below?
    If you think the person you are quoting is giving a slightly disingenuous account of adoption in Ireland, take it up with them, not me.
    The fact remains there is adoption in Ireland, and there is a shortage of wanted babies, not a surplus of unwanted ones.


  • #2009
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    frag420 wrote: »
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/...-person-babies

    Doctors in Newcastle have been granted permission to create Britain’s first “three-person babies” for two women who are at risk of passing on devastating and incurable genetic diseases to their children.

    A questions for the Christian pro life side, would you be in support of a three parent child developed in a lab as per the article above if it meant a reduction in abortions as there would be a reduction in the risk of passing on devastating and incurable genetic diseases to children which is a reason that many cite for procuring an abortion?
    This is the 'flip side' of the abortion 'coin' ... these people are demanding to be pregnant whatever the consequences ... while the pro-aborts are demanding to not be pregnant whatever the consequences.

    Producing children with three parents or aborting them are both wrong.


  • #2010
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,079 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Unfortunately, some Irish people can and do travel abroad to do all sorts of illegal things to children and other things that are illegal in this country, in practice the state or anyone else can do little about it, as it's outside the state's jurisdiction, and within the jurisdiction of another country.

    and how many of those things specifically have constitutional protection?

    clutching at straws a bit there


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  • #2011
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    uptherebels wrote: »
    and how many of those things specifically have constitutional protection?

    clutching at straws a bit there

    Why should human life not have constitutional protection ?


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