Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 06-02-2018 08:15PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

You are presuming to speak for your "god" and judging people. You are sinning by presuming to speak for him and judge people for their actions. You should take a long hard look at yourself and maybe rethink your hypocritical stance when preaching to others.

I know what God thinks because I understand the gospels of Christ, and He, in His infinite wisdom, grants me wisdom through prayer. He can do the very same for you.

J C · 06-02-2018 08:18PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Procured abortion is undoubtedly the deliberate killing of an unborn child.
... and whether a 12 week old unborn child is a 'baby' ... I'll let the reader decide by looking at this image of a 12 week old unborn child:-

Quote:-
"The most dramatic development this week: reflexes. Your baby's fingers will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response, although you won't be able to feel it.

His intestines, which have grown so fast that they protrude into the umbilical cord, will start to move into his abdominal cavity about now, and his kidneys will begin excreting urine into his bladder.

Meanwhile, nerve cells are multiplying rapidly, and synapses are forming furiously in your baby's brain. His face looks unquestionably human: His eyes have moved from the sides to the front of his head, and his ears are right where they should be. "

https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-12-weeks_1101.bc

end of the road · 06-02-2018 08:31PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If you are saying we should take it on a case by case basis how can you possibly say she was wrong then? Because you don’t know what her case involves? So hypocritical.

no no, what i was actually saying is it should be a case by case basis as to whether contempt should be shown, that you can think someone to be wrong but believe showing them contempt to be wrong also, that it serves no purpose.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

She owes you no justification or explanation, or anyone else for that matter. It’s none of your business.

i would disagree given the nature of abortion being the killing of another human being. one who kills the unborn outside medical circumstances does owe society a justification and explanation, and it is society's business, given that we believe the killing of other human beings to be wrong. people who openly admit to procuring an abortion on demand have decided to make it people's business by talking about it in the first place, for which they have to except the consiquence that people will openly disagree with their decisian.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It isn’t wrong because we do not prosecute women who travel for abortion, so the law disagrees with you there.
So many actually believe it ISN’T wrong that we are having a referendum to allow it in our own country, which speaks for itself.
Pretty soon it will be legal here and then you’ll have to find something else to get on your high horse over.
Maybe euthanasia? Or legalizing cannabis?

the fact we don't prosecute women for abortion doesn't mean that abortion outside medical circumstances isn't wrong, the fact many don't believe it to be wrong doesn't change the fact it is wrong. the law still agrees with me given that we don't have abortion on demand in this country. abortion on demand may become legal but we can continue to oppose it and condemn those who partake in it.
in theory i'm in favour of euthanasia, but i don't think ireland is a responsible enough country to handle it, or have it legalised. i'm also in favour of legalising all recreational drugs. but those are other discussions for other threads.

J C · 06-02-2018 08:42PM

To help answer the OP question on whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion ... the following is an Irish Times summary of the position of the four main churches in Ireland on the issue ... and it's a no.

Quote:-
"The Church of Ireland’s two archbishops have said they cannot accept an Oireachtas Committee proposal to allow unrestricted abortion during the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy.

They could not accept unrestricted abortion at any stage of pregnancy, they have said.

It means that all four main churches in Ireland are now opposed to the recommendation of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment.

The Catholic Church has expressed “vehement opposition” to abortion in all circumstances while the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, as expressed by former moderators Rev Drs Trevor Morrow and Norman Hamilton last month, was “very gravely concerned” about the Committee proposal “to introduce abortion with no restriction as to reason until the twelfth week of gestation, and beyond 12 weeks on health grounds”.

In a statement last month also the Methodist Church in Ireland said “our opposition to abortion on demand includes this first trimester”. The church has “consistently been against abortion on demand,” it said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-of-ireland-opposes-unrestricted-abortion-in-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-1.3381237

Timberrrrrrrr · 06-02-2018 08:44PM

J C wrote: »

Procured abortion is undoubtedly the deliberate killing of an unborn child.
... and whether a 12 week old unborn child is a 'baby' ... I'll let the reader decide by looking at this image of a 12 week old unborn child:-

Quote:-
"The most dramatic development this week: reflexes. Your baby's fingers will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response, although you won't be able to feel it.

His intestines, which have grown so fast that they protrude into the umbilical cord, will start to move into his abdominal cavity about now, and his kidneys will begin excreting urine into his bladder.

Meanwhile, nerve cells are multiplying rapidly, and synapses are forming furiously in your baby's brain. His face looks unquestionably human: His eyes have moved from the sides to the front of his head, and his ears are right where they should be. "

https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-12-weeks_1101.bc

JC posting up cartoons again i see :rolleyes:

J C · 06-02-2018 08:48PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

JC posting up cartoons again i see :rolleyes:

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'.
... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

pilly · 06-02-2018 08:52PM

J C wrote:

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'. ... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

It's a cartoon son.

J C · 06-02-2018 08:55PM

pilly wrote: »

It's a cartoon son.

Its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... in all of it's obvious Humanity.

Which part of the image are you saying isn't a true representation of a 12 week old unborn child?

Hooks Golf Handicap · 06-02-2018 09:17PM

If the 76% confirmed Catholics represent 50% of the electorate on voting day then there'll be no repeal.

The pro life side need to muzzle the fundamentalists and the Bishops. Nothing like being told to do to drive a voter the other way.

J C · 06-02-2018 09:18PM

Here is the nuanced (and reasonable) position of the Church of Ireland on the abortion issue.
Quote:-
"The Church of Ireland primate Archbishop Richard Clarke and Archbishop of Dublin Michael Jackson acknowledged in a statement on Monday “the dilemma faced both by legislators and by medical, nursing and healthcare practitioners with regards to access to unrestricted abortion during the early months of pregnancy.”

"“However, unrestricted access to abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, or indeed at any stage, is not an ethical position we can accept.”

They say they favour “modification” of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution to allow the Oireachtas address in law the termination of pregnancy, the rights of the unborn and the rights of the pregnant woman “within clearly defined boundaries and parameters”.

Current legislation should be strengthened to ensure the needs of pregnant women facing difficult situations can be addressed quickly and comprehensively through improved support services, they said."

As a society, we would be totally crazy to repeal the 8th ... and put nothing in it's place ... thereby removing all constitutional protection for the unborn, right up to 9 months ... it's a moral and legal 'bridge too far'.

Timberrrrrrrr · 06-02-2018 09:24PM

J C wrote: »

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'.
... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

Im sorry JC you are correct in saying its not a cartoon and i apologise for saying that.

Anyone can see that it is in fact a computer generated image.

Until you show me a picture of an ACTUAL 12 week old foetus then your little drawings/pictures/CGI images are nothing but lame attempts at emotional blackmail.

end of the road · 06-02-2018 09:32PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If the 76% confirmed Catholics represent 50% of the electorate on voting day then there'll be no repeal.

The pro life side need to muzzle the fundamentalists and the Bishops. Nothing like being told to do to drive a voter the other way.

not really. a voter who may vote one way been driven to vote another way very very rarely ever happens. the small view who may change their view based on a bishop having an opinion are usually not worth bothering about anyway. there are fundamentalists on both sides of the debate.

J C · 06-02-2018 09:57PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Im sorry JC you are correct in saying its not a cartoon and i apologise for saying that.

Anyone can see that it is in fact a computer generated image.

Until you show me a picture of an ACTUAL 12 week old foetus then your little drawings/pictures/CGI images are nothing but lame attempts at emotional blackmail.

CGI images are amongst the most accurate images known to science ... and this image is an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old unborn child.
I have already asked which part of the image are you saying isn't a true representation of a 12 week old unborn child?
... and your silence is telling.

I'm not in the business of emotionally blackmailing anybody ... just showing an accurate image of the beautiful unborn children that it is proposed to kill via unrestricted abortion, if the people of Ireland vote to repeal the 8th.

If you feel emotionally triggered from looking at the obvious Humanity of a 12 week unborn child ... then I would say that is a natural and reasonable reaction IMO.
... so are you going to follow through on your feelings ... and campaign to not introduce laws allowing the unrestricted killing of such obviously Human unborn children?

Nettle Soup · 06-02-2018 10:04PM

NaFirinne wrote: »

....... wrote: »

What about the lives lost because of the 8th?

The maternal mortality rate is only measured for women who have had live births, Savita Halappanavar would not be considered a maternal death for example.

Nor would the woman who died in travelling back to Ireland having procured an abortion abroad.

Nor would any woman who died as a result of complications post abortion abroad.

Maternal mortality rates have little to do with women who have abortions.

Apologies I misread the end of your post - it is a health risk not to allow abortion services for many reasons, it affects maternity care, consent in maternity care, it causes a lack of continuity in medical care across 2 jurisdictions, it leaves women open to infection to travel with an open uterus after procuring an abortion abroad, it criminalises and endangers women who procure abortion pills to take at home - which specific issue do you disagree with?

The citizens assembly had extensive evidence provided to them by both medical professionals and interest groups and they believed that women are in danger so long as they have to travel for or illegally procure abortion services. The citizens assembly website has nice clickable links that you can use to read the various submissions.

When you have looked at the evidence, I have no doubt you will see it is compelling.

Your correct abortion does have serious health repercussions for women, which is why we definitely need to save the 8th.

Killing another human being should always be a criminal act.

Would you advocate a man traveling to a middle east country just so he can legally kill his wife?

A human being is a human being no matter what stage of life it's at.

Killing is killing.

Pro-choice is for giving women the right to sentence their babies to death.

That is one high horse!! Wow.

Nettle Soup · 06-02-2018 10:09PM

J C wrote: »

To help answer the OP question on whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion ... the following is an Irish Times summary of the position of the four main churches in Ireland on the issue ... and it's a no.

Quote:-
"The Church of Ireland’s two archbishops have said they cannot accept an Oireachtas Committee proposal to allow unrestricted abortion during the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy.

They could not accept unrestricted abortion at any stage of pregnancy, they have said.

It means that all four main churches in Ireland are now opposed to the recommendation of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment.

The Catholic Church has expressed “vehement opposition” to abortion in all circumstances while the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, as expressed by former moderators Rev Drs Trevor Morrow and Norman Hamilton last month, was “very gravely concerned” about the Committee proposal “to introduce abortion with no restriction as to reason until the twelfth week of gestation, and beyond 12 weeks on health grounds”.

In a statement last month also the Methodist Church in Ireland said “our opposition to abortion on demand includes this first trimester”. The church has “consistently been against abortion on demand,” it said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-of-ireland-opposes-unrestricted-abortion-in-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-1.3381237

So you are replying to your own OP now?
I have to say your posting style is nautious and tries to shut down debate.

J C · 06-02-2018 10:27PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

So you are replying to your own OP now?
I have to say your posting style is nautious and tries to shut down debate.

Yes, I'm attempting to answer my own question allright ... and the answer coming from the four main Churches is a resounding no !!

This isn't shutting down debate ... just winning it ... because the pro-abortion proponents don't actually have many valid arguments when faced with the arguments against repealing the 8th and introducing unrestricted abortion.

They seem to be relying on pointing to a few hypothetical hard cases ... and then concluding that the solution is the repeal of the 8th and unlimited abortion ... which are actually two massive non sequiturs.

recedite · 06-02-2018 10:28PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

posting style is nautious

Why not address the substance of the post, and not the style?

I thought the style was concise and contained useful info. I don't think the positions of the minority christian churches has been quoted before on this thread?

Also, get yourself a spellchecker

end of the road · 06-02-2018 11:34PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

That is one high horse!! Wow.

nope wrong, no high horse at all. just some home truths which are accurate. i understand they may be uncomfortable, but it's important the truth is told regardless of whether it's comfortable or uncomfortable.

J C wrote: »

I was quoting an Irish Times article ... and I don't know why this could make you nauseous ... the Irish Times is a paper of record, not known for emotionalism.

Yes, I'm attempting to answer my own question allright ... and the answer coming from the four main Churches is a resounding no !!

This isn't shutting down debate ... just winning it ... because the pro-abortion proponents don't actually have many valid arguments when faced with the arguments against repealing the 8th and introducing unrestricted abortion.

They seem to be relying on pointing to a few hypothetical hard cases ... and then concluding that the solution has to be the repeal of the 8th and unlimited abortion ... which are actually two massive non sequiturs.

not forgetting that they have to find problems for which to suggest abortion on demand as the solution to. for example, the issues with our systems is a very common problem for which they suggest abortion on demand as the solution, rather then campaigning for the systems to be sorted out.

SusieBlue · 06-02-2018 11:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

nope wrong, no high horse at all. just some home truths which are accurate. i understand they may be uncomfortable, but it's important the truth is told regardless of whether it's comfortable or uncomfortable.

YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOT FACTS.

Bubbaclaus · 06-02-2018 11:50PM

So after 1,730 posts I think it's pretty clear that the answer is a resounding 'Yes' to the thread question.

Nick Park · 06-02-2018 11:51PM

recedite wrote: »

I thought the style was concise and contained useful info. I don't think the positions of the minority christian churches has been quoted before on this thread?

Here is the position of many of the smaller Evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and many independent churches, as explained in Evangelical Alliance Ireland's submission to the Citizens' Assembly. https://www.evangelical.ie/files/EAI_Citizens_Assembly_Submission.pdf

J C · 07-02-2018 12:22AM

Nick Park wrote: »

Here is the position of many of the smaller Evangelical and Pentecostal denominations, and many independent churches, as explained in Evangelical Alliance Ireland's submission to the Citizens' Assembly. http://www.evangelical.ie/files/EAI_Citizens_Assembly_Submission.pdf

Thanks Nick for the link.

Here are parts of the elegant and progressive submission of the EIA to the Ciitizens Assembly.
Quote:-
"The Eighth Amendment is not merely about religious dogma. EAI, in common with much of the population of Ireland today, is opposed to the imposition of religious dogma through State compulsion or legislation. However, we are concerned that the debate over the Eighth Amendment is being deliberately misrepresented as a false narrative of a battle between young liberal progressives and an older generation of backward conservative religionists. This false narrative conveniently sweeps very real Human Rights concerns under the carpet."

"Many of these ‘hard cases’ can be addressed without touching the Eighth Amendment at all – or by proposing minor adjustments to it. In such a scenario, we can be confident that the ensuing debate will focus on the needs of these extremely rare cases. What would be intolerable, and unforgivably dishonest, would be to exploit such heartrending cases in pursuit of removing the Eighth Amendment in its entirety and paving the way for abortion on demand. That would represent a cynical and reprehensible betrayal of those who are at the heart of very difficult ethical dilemmas and who deserve our compassion and undivided attention.
EAI, then, would strongly argue against any proposal to repeal the Eighth Amendment. We would see the Eighth Amendment as a positive Human Rights measure that is in keeping with Ireland’s growing reputation as a modern and compassionate democracy."

... so, the answer to my question from all of the member churches of the Evangelical Alliance Ireland is another resounding 'no'.

... so the four main church denominations in Ireland and the Evangelical Alliance Ireland are definitively opposed to the repeal of the 8th and the introduction of unlimited abortion for very good stated reasons ... so, I guess no Christian can, in conscience, vote for unlimted abortion ... by voting for the repeal of the 8th.

J C · 07-02-2018 12:40AM

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

So after 1,730 posts I think it's pretty clear that the answer is a resounding 'Yes' to the thread question.

May I ask how you reached that (clearly erroneous) conclusion?

Delirium · 07-02-2018 09:24AM

NaFirinne wrote: »

Your correct abortion does have serious health repercussions for women, which is why we definitely need to save the 8th.

Abortion, particularly if it's early in the pregnancy, has less health risks for the woman compared to pregnancy.

Between 1998 and 2005, one woman died in childbirth for every 11,000 babies born, compared to one of 167,000 women who died due to abortion complications. It’s probably not too surprising considering that women are pregnant for nine months, leaving far more opportunity for complications to arise than in an individual procedure.

Source

So by not allowing a woman to choose to have an abortion her life is placed in more danger by a factor over 10 based on quoted stats.

If you're concerned about a pregnant womans health, it's seem illogical to oppose repealing the eighth.

end of the road · 07-02-2018 03:17PM

Delirium wrote: »

If you're concerned about a pregnant womans health, it's seem illogical to oppose repealing the eighth.

on the surface i completely agree. however many people do believe the unborn must have protection as well as the mother's health, and the current proposals don't implement full protection for the unborn right from implantation, which will mean people having no option but to vote no to repeal.

Delirium · 07-02-2018 04:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

on the surface i completely agree. however many people do believe the unborn must have protection as well as the mother's health, and the current proposals don't implement full protection for the unborn right from implantation, which will mean people having no option but to vote no to repeal.

But by refusing abortion on request, you're putting the protection of the unborn above that of the womans health. She's not allowed to make the best medical decision for her situation. If she's unwilling to risk her health/life and continue with the pregnancy, that choice should be respected.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 07-02-2018 04:30PM

Delirium wrote:

But by refusing abortion on request, you're putting the protection of the unborn above that of the womans health. She's not allowed to make the best medical decision for her situation. If she's unwilling to risk her health/life and continue with the pregnancy, that choice should be respected.

You forget God in all of this. Each one of us must face the judgment seat of God. What are you to say when He knows that you killed an unborn, and did not repent?

Delirium · 07-02-2018 04:31PM

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

You forget God in all of this. Each one of us must face the judgment seat of God. What are you to say when He knows that you killed an unborn, and did not repent?

Well, yes, I'm not Christian

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 07-02-2018 04:35PM

Delirium wrote:

Well, yes, I'm not Christian

It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or not. God is the God of all, Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. It is still gravely wrong.

Delirium · 07-02-2018 04:39PM

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

It doesn't matter whether you are Christian or not. God is the God of all, Christian, Hindu, Muslim etc. It is still gravely wrong.

And again, not Christian. I don't share your religious beliefs.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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