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Child Item

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Nettle Soup

NaFirinne wrote: »

....... wrote: »

What about the lives lost because of the 8th?

The maternal mortality rate is only measured for women who have had live births, Savita Halappanavar would not be considered a maternal death for example.

Nor would the woman who died in travelling back to Ireland having procured an abortion abroad.

Nor would any woman who died as a result of complications post abortion abroad.

Maternal mortality rates have little to do with women who have abortions.

Apologies I misread the end of your post - it is a health risk not to allow abortion services for many reasons, it affects maternity care, consent in maternity care, it causes a lack of continuity in medical care across 2 jurisdictions, it leaves women open to infection to travel with an open uterus after procuring an abortion abroad, it criminalises and endangers women who procure abortion pills to take at home - which specific issue do you disagree with?

The citizens assembly had extensive evidence provided to them by both medical professionals and interest groups and they believed that women are in danger so long as they have to travel for or illegally procure abortion services. The citizens assembly website has nice clickable links that you can use to read the various submissions.

When you have looked at the evidence, I have no doubt you will see it is compelling.

Your correct abortion does have serious health repercussions for women, which is why we definitely need to save the 8th.

Killing another human being should always be a criminal act.

Would you advocate a man traveling to a middle east country just so he can legally kill his wife?

A human being is a human being no matter what stage of life it's at.

Killing is killing.

Pro-choice is for giving women the right to sentence their babies to death.

That is one high horse!! Wow.

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Im sorry JC you are correct in saying its not a cartoon and i apologise for saying that.

Anyone can see that it is in fact a computer generated image.

Until you show me a picture of an ACTUAL 12 week old foetus then your little drawings/pictures/CGI images are nothing but lame attempts at emotional blackmail.

CGI images are amongst the most accurate images known to science ... and this image is an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old unborn child.
I have already asked which part of the image are you saying isn't a true representation of a 12 week old unborn child?
... and your silence is telling.

I'm not in the business of emotionally blackmailing anybody ... just showing an accurate image of the beautiful unborn children that it is proposed to kill via unrestricted abortion, if the people of Ireland vote to repeal the 8th.

If you feel emotionally triggered from looking at the obvious Humanity of a 12 week unborn child ... then I would say that is a natural and reasonable reaction IMO.
... so are you going to follow through on your feelings ... and campaign to not introduce laws allowing the unrestricted killing of such obviously Human unborn children?

end of the road

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

If the 76% confirmed Catholics represent 50% of the electorate on voting day then there'll be no repeal.

The pro life side need to muzzle the fundamentalists and the Bishops. Nothing like being told to do to drive a voter the other way.

not really. a voter who may vote one way been driven to vote another way very very rarely ever happens. the small view who may change their view based on a bishop having an opinion are usually not worth bothering about anyway. there are fundamentalists on both sides of the debate.

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'.
... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

Im sorry JC you are correct in saying its not a cartoon and i apologise for saying that.

Anyone can see that it is in fact a computer generated image.

Until you show me a picture of an ACTUAL 12 week old foetus then your little drawings/pictures/CGI images are nothing but lame attempts at emotional blackmail.

J C

Here is the nuanced (and reasonable) position of the Church of Ireland on the abortion issue.
Quote:-
"The Church of Ireland primate Archbishop Richard Clarke and Archbishop of Dublin Michael Jackson acknowledged in a statement on Monday “the dilemma faced both by legislators and by medical, nursing and healthcare practitioners with regards to access to unrestricted abortion during the early months of pregnancy.”

"“However, unrestricted access to abortion in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, or indeed at any stage, is not an ethical position we can accept.”

They say they favour “modification” of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution to allow the Oireachtas address in law the termination of pregnancy, the rights of the unborn and the rights of the pregnant woman “within clearly defined boundaries and parameters”.

Current legislation should be strengthened to ensure the needs of pregnant women facing difficult situations can be addressed quickly and comprehensively through improved support services, they said."

As a society, we would be totally crazy to repeal the 8th ... and put nothing in it's place ... thereby removing all constitutional protection for the unborn, right up to 9 months ... it's a moral and legal 'bridge too far'.

Hooks Golf Handicap

If the 76% confirmed Catholics represent 50% of the electorate on voting day then there'll be no repeal.

The pro life side need to muzzle the fundamentalists and the Bishops. Nothing like being told to do to drive a voter the other way.

J C

pilly wrote: »

It's a cartoon son.

Its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... in all of it's obvious Humanity.

Which part of the image are you saying isn't a true representation of a 12 week old unborn child?

pilly

J C wrote:

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'. ... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

It's a cartoon son.

J C

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

JC posting up cartoons again i see :rolleyes:

It's no cartoon ... its an anatomically correct image of a 12 week old fetus ... and it's also no 'bunch of cells' ... unless you consider yourself to be a 'bunch of cells'.
... and if you do, I'll rest my case, on the undoubted Humanity of the unborn child at 12 weeks ... and much earlier, indeed.

Timberrrrrrrr

J C wrote: »

Procured abortion is undoubtedly the deliberate killing of an unborn child.
... and whether a 12 week old unborn child is a 'baby' ... I'll let the reader decide by looking at this image of a 12 week old unborn child:-

Quote:-
"The most dramatic development this week: reflexes. Your baby's fingers will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response, although you won't be able to feel it.

His intestines, which have grown so fast that they protrude into the umbilical cord, will start to move into his abdominal cavity about now, and his kidneys will begin excreting urine into his bladder.

Meanwhile, nerve cells are multiplying rapidly, and synapses are forming furiously in your baby's brain. His face looks unquestionably human: His eyes have moved from the sides to the front of his head, and his ears are right where they should be. "

https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-12-weeks_1101.bc

JC posting up cartoons again i see :rolleyes:

J C

To help answer the OP question on whether a Christian can vote for unlimited abortion ... the following is an Irish Times summary of the position of the four main churches in Ireland on the issue ... and it's a no.

Quote:-
"The Church of Ireland’s two archbishops have said they cannot accept an Oireachtas Committee proposal to allow unrestricted abortion during the first 12 weeks of a pregnancy.

They could not accept unrestricted abortion at any stage of pregnancy, they have said.

It means that all four main churches in Ireland are now opposed to the recommendation of the Oireachtas Committee on the Eighth Amendment.

The Catholic Church has expressed “vehement opposition” to abortion in all circumstances while the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, as expressed by former moderators Rev Drs Trevor Morrow and Norman Hamilton last month, was “very gravely concerned” about the Committee proposal “to introduce abortion with no restriction as to reason until the twelfth week of gestation, and beyond 12 weeks on health grounds”.

In a statement last month also the Methodist Church in Ireland said “our opposition to abortion on demand includes this first trimester”. The church has “consistently been against abortion on demand,” it said.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-of-ireland-opposes-unrestricted-abortion-in-first-12-weeks-of-pregnancy-1.3381237

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If you are saying we should take it on a case by case basis how can you possibly say she was wrong then? Because you don’t know what her case involves? So hypocritical.

no no, what i was actually saying is it should be a case by case basis as to whether contempt should be shown, that you can think someone to be wrong but believe showing them contempt to be wrong also, that it serves no purpose.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

She owes you no justification or explanation, or anyone else for that matter. It’s none of your business.

i would disagree given the nature of abortion being the killing of another human being. one who kills the unborn outside medical circumstances does owe society a justification and explanation, and it is society's business, given that we believe the killing of other human beings to be wrong. people who openly admit to procuring an abortion on demand have decided to make it people's business by talking about it in the first place, for which they have to except the consiquence that people will openly disagree with their decisian.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It isn’t wrong because we do not prosecute women who travel for abortion, so the law disagrees with you there.
So many actually believe it ISN’T wrong that we are having a referendum to allow it in our own country, which speaks for itself.
Pretty soon it will be legal here and then you’ll have to find something else to get on your high horse over.
Maybe euthanasia? Or legalizing cannabis?

the fact we don't prosecute women for abortion doesn't mean that abortion outside medical circumstances isn't wrong, the fact many don't believe it to be wrong doesn't change the fact it is wrong. the law still agrees with me given that we don't have abortion on demand in this country. abortion on demand may become legal but we can continue to oppose it and condemn those who partake in it.
in theory i'm in favour of euthanasia, but i don't think ireland is a responsible enough country to handle it, or have it legalised. i'm also in favour of legalising all recreational drugs. but those are other discussions for other threads.

J C

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Procured abortion is undoubtedly the deliberate killing of an unborn child.
... and whether a 12 week old unborn child is a 'baby' ... I'll let the reader decide by looking at this image of a 12 week old unborn child:-

Quote:-
"The most dramatic development this week: reflexes. Your baby's fingers will soon begin to open and close, his toes will curl, his eye muscles will clench, and his mouth will make sucking movements. In fact, if you prod your abdomen, your baby will squirm in response, although you won't be able to feel it.

His intestines, which have grown so fast that they protrude into the umbilical cord, will start to move into his abdominal cavity about now, and his kidneys will begin excreting urine into his bladder.

Meanwhile, nerve cells are multiplying rapidly, and synapses are forming furiously in your baby's brain. His face looks unquestionably human: His eyes have moved from the sides to the front of his head, and his ears are right where they should be. "

https://www.babycenter.com/6_your-pregnancy-12-weeks_1101.bc

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

You are presuming to speak for your "god" and judging people. You are sinning by presuming to speak for him and judge people for their actions. You should take a long hard look at yourself and maybe rethink your hypocritical stance when preaching to others.

I know what God thinks because I understand the gospels of Christ, and He, in His infinite wisdom, grants me wisdom through prayer. He can do the very same for you.

Timberrrrrrrr

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

I'm trying to tell you that God is your judge.

You are presuming to speak for your "god" and judging people. You are sinning by presuming to speak for him and judge people for their actions. You should take a long hard look at yourself and maybe rethink your hypocritical stance when preaching to others.

J C

pilly wrote: »

No, your mask is well and truly slipping now by showing what you think of women.

If you genuinely believe that women are having abortions JUST BECAUSE then you have an extremely low opinion of women and there is nothing Christian at all about that.

I have the highest regard for women. That said, women, no more than men, don't have a monopoly on virtue.
Women, like men, may do things at all points on the ethical spectrum.

Most women don't abort, in the first place. They see their pregnancies safely through to term, sometimes, in less than ideal circumstances.

Of the minority who do abort their pregnancy, some do so for very serious (and morally legitimate) reasons, others for somewhat less serious reasons ... and undoubtedly some will abort for lifestyle reasons or just because they can ... if abortion is available on demand.

This is not an opinion of what women in general will do ... just the behaviour of some women (and their partners), if they are allowed.

... at the end of the day, 'handsome is as handsome does' ... and women who avail of abortion on demand aren't behaving ethically or morally in relation to their unborn child ... and it has to be said.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Judge not lest ye be judged

I'm trying to tell you that God is your judge.

Timberrrrrrrr

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

See the post I sent at 12.40 That is the end of the matter as far as I'm concerned. Any deviation from that position and you are going down the wrong road, and you need to find your way back.

Judge not lest ye be judged

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Yes, but I'm only interested in believers. You understand my position. I haven't time to spend on unbelievers. You can't convert an unbeliever. Why should I waste my time on them, when I could be giving it to believers. I am interested in people who are wondering about God, and trying to find their way to the Truth.

eviltwin

Nick Park wrote: »

To be fair, you did go to the bother of bringing the matter up in a discussion forum to ask some nobody on the internet what they thought about it.

No, I asked for a poster to tell me what he believes would be an appropriate prison sentence as he advocated for same.

I don't post to be judged but it's a free for all here so people can do as they wish. I don't see it as relevant to me as I don't know EOTR. He can think how he likes.

Nick Park

eviltwin wrote: »

In your opinion. I don't have to justify anything to some nobody on the internet. I don't care what you think.

To be fair, you did go to the bother of bringing the matter up in a discussion forum to ask some nobody on the internet what they thought about it.

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

actually she did do something wrong, she killed the unborn. anyone who kills another human being does have to justify it, even though in most cases they can't. people will often show contempt for people who harm or kill other human beings, it's a natural human reaction and instinct, as to whether it is the right thing, well i tend to think maybe a case by case basis would be the best way to judge.

In your opinion. I don't have to justify anything to some nobody on the internet. I don't care what you think. I'm very open about it and no one I've told cares, not even people who would consider themselves pro life. I suppose you think they are all pro "murder" ?

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

actually she did do something wrong, she killed the unborn. anyone who kills another human being does have to justify it, even though in most cases they can't. people will often show contempt for people who harm or kill other human beings, it's a natural human reaction and instinct, as to whether it is the right thing, well i tend to think maybe a case by case basis would be the best way to judge.

If you are saying we should take it on a case by case basis how can you possibly say she was wrong then? Because you don’t know what her case involves? So hypocritical.

She owes you no justification or explanation, or anyone else for that matter. It’s none of your business.

It isn’t wrong because we do not prosecute women who travel for abortion, so the law disagrees with you there.
So many actually believe it ISN’T wrong that we are having a referendum to allow it in our own country, which speaks for itself.
Pretty soon it will be legal here and then you’ll have to find something else to get on your high horse over.
Maybe euthanasia? Or legalizing cannabis?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

end of the road wrote:

actually she did do something wrong, she killed the unborn. anyone who kills another human being does have to justify it, even though in most cases they can't. people will often show contempt for people who harm or kill other human beings, it's a natural human reaction and instinct, as to whether it is the right thing, well i tend to think maybe a case by case basis would be the best way to judge.

True. God is a merciful Judge, and weighs up all the factors.

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I wouldn’t even bother justifying you to these people. Not one thing Christian about the utter contempt and piousness out of them.
They don’t understand and never will. You did nothing wrong and you made the right decision for your family.

actually she did do something wrong, she killed the unborn. anyone who kills another human being does have to justify it, even though in most cases they can't. people will often show contempt for people who harm or kill other human beings, it's a natural human reaction and instinct, as to whether it is the right thing, well i tend to think maybe a case by case basis would be the best way to judge.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

frag420 wrote:

You would get more nourishment licking a stamp!!

You are fully entitled to hold that position.

SusieBlue

eviltwin wrote: »

Sure why have god judge when you do such a wonderful job yourself

Their idea of an ideal reality sounds like the Handmaids Tale!

eviltwin

end of the road wrote: »

nope wrong. you are mixing me up with someone else.

a full life sentence with no chance of release i presume. it is what murderers should actually be getting anyway, abortion asside.

you don't need a god to tell you that you are wrong, there are plenty of people who will do it instead.

Sure why have god judge when you do such a wonderful job yourself

eviltwin

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I wouldn’t even bother justifying you to these people. Not one thing Christian about the utter contempt and piousness out of them.
They don’t understand and never will. You did nothing wrong and you made the right decision for your family.

I actually think it's hilarious. You've got one who thinks 14 years is appropriate and another who thinks it should be life, all for having an abortion.

Love them both indeed.

frag420

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

You should repent of your sin. God will forgive you immediately. Then go and receive the Bread of Life, to nourish your soul and prevent you from falling into sin again.

You would get more nourishment licking a stamp!!