Irexit party yay or nay?

Beechwoodspark · 05-02-2018 10:33am #1

So with the Farage appearance at the rally in the RDS over the weekend in the news, what do people think about his assertion that there is a “gap in the market” in Ireland for an Irexit/eurosceptic political movement?

Personally I think it would be no harm to have some dissenting voices regarding the EU in the body politic of Ireland. A check on the exuberant EU Uber Alles attitude of some in the mainstream parties perhaps.

I wonder what their general appeal would be, I suspect something akin to one of the smaller parties like the Soc Dems or Greens possibly.

Wanderer78 · 05-02-2018 10:43am

It was sad to see some of the comments from the conference over the weekend, particularly from younger people, the usual nationalistic rubbish that has been trotted out over the last couple of years, 'make Ireland great again', Jesus lads do a bit of reading! Thankfully there isn't much traction yet for irexit, but things could change, I wonder will the Irish division of diem25 become a political party in the near future?

ancapailldorcha · 05-02-2018 11:22am

I can't see it happening. I don't think Ireland and the UK are remotely similar when it comes to justifying the existence of such a party. The Irish seem to be well aware of the benefits of being in the EU such as being able to attract US corporations, infrastructure projects and being in the single market. Inequality doesn't seem to be as pronounced as it is in the UK and there isn't really a glorious bygone era for Irish Eurosceptics to employ as a nostalgia tactic.

weisses · 05-02-2018 11:25am

You only have to look whats happening in the UK right now

Fianna Fail's Brexit spokesman Stephen Donnelly last night criticised the conference, saying: "The empty rhetoric on Irexit is similar to the nonsense sold to the British people in 2016."

Which seems a proper reply

People seeking tickets for the event online were required to confirm they agreed to terms and conditions that stated that the conference was "only open to supporters of an Irish Exit from the European Union".

The terms also said: "Unwelcome interjections from the audience may result in removal from the event."

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/farage-tells-irexit-conference-eu-humiliated-ireland-36564549.html

So you basically had a bunch of irexiteers engaging in a 2 hour circle jerk in the RDS

If they are serious in starting a party it would be nice if they could actually engage in a proper debate

seamus · 05-02-2018 11:28am

weisses wrote: »

So you basically had a bunch of irexiteers engaging in a 2 hour circle jerk in the RDS

Made even funnier by the fact that a speech headlined by someone staunchly British and "Britain First", finished with John Waters giving a Catholic, Republican, anti-immigrant speech to stir up the crowd.

This is a group of people who have absolutely no idea about their place in the world except that they hate everything else.

Wanderer78 · 05-02-2018 11:29am

weisses wrote:

So you basically had a bunch of irexiteers engaging in a 2 hour circle jerk in the RDS

I did find that odd alright, and I'd agree, if they want to be taken serious, open it up to the public. I was interested in going, but it was unaware of this clause

Varik · 05-02-2018 11:40am

No problem with people campaign for it or most things, and no issue with the lack of debate as that isn't what this is.

If the IDI host an event on Ireland's place in the EU or some party does run then that's the place for representation and debate. You don't have to have "The Vegan Society of Ireland" start off an event with how great meat tastes. United Ireland, rejoining UK, or EU membership (No, No, Yes), There's no automatically right answer that will always be right.

Sierra Oscar · 05-02-2018 11:43am

The National Party essentially espouse the values of UKIP and they've no support here. 0 elected representatives at any level.

Zubeneschamali · 05-02-2018 1:28pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

So with the Farage appearance at the rally in the RDS over the weekend in the news, what do people think about his assertion that there is a “gap in the market” in Ireland for an Irexit/eurosceptic political movement?

Comical nonsense. Something like 85-90% of Irish people think Ireland should be in the EU, across parties.

Eric Cartman · 05-02-2018 8:51pm

I was at the event, it much more centred on the EU's failings towards Ireland and suggesting reform rather than a circle jerk of people calling for Ireland to leave the EU.

I wouldn't support a party calling for Ireland to leave, but would very much welcome a moderate eurosceptic party that is there to act as a watchdog against the EU , and to try steer the EU to the previous EEC model.

Ireland really needs to reclaim its rights with regards to fisheries, farming, tax and law autonomy, tighter immigration controls and to prevent us from becoming the economic whipping boy when the next global recession unfolds.

Wanderer78 · 05-02-2018 8:53pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I was at the event, it much more centred on the EU's failings towards Ireland and suggesting reform rather than a circle jerk of people calling for Ireland to leave the EU.

I wouldn't support a party calling for Ireland to leave, but would very much welcome a moderate eurosceptic party that is there to act as a watchdog against the EU , and to try steer the EU to the previous EEC model.

Ireland really needs to reclaim its rights with regards to fisheries, farming, tax and law autonomy, tighter immigration controls and to prevent us from becoming the economic whipping boy when the next global recession unfolds.

maybe groups such as diem25 have a better approach?

endacl · 05-02-2018 9:00pm

weisses wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/farage-tells-irexit-conference-eu-humiliated-ireland-36564549.html

So you basically had a bunch of irexiteers engaging in a 2 hour circle
If they are serious in starting a party it would be nice if they could actually engage in a proper debate

There was a thread a few weeks back featuring this.

Four of the empty seats there were mine.

Eric Cartman · 05-02-2018 9:21pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

maybe groups such as diem25 have a better approach?

Ill have to read up on that, have never heard of them before.

Wanderer78 · 05-02-2018 9:22pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ill have to read up on that, have never heard of them before.

https://diem25.org/

lefty alert;)

murphaph · 05-02-2018 9:50pm

I certainly hope such parties never gain any traction. I hope for more European integration, not less.

Harika · 06-02-2018 9:15am

https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/960465655056228353

Irexit simply has not enough support in Ireland to take traction.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 9:24am

Regardless of whether you agree with the whole Irexit thing or not, Ireland needs a few dissenting political voices. It was telling how virulent the response to the meeting at the weekend was by media and the usual Twitter mob. This is the first generation ever that is more conservative than its predecessor (disguised as liberalism), where anyone that doesn't fall strictly into line with the consensus is shouted down, with increasing hysteria. Anything that shakes that mentality is a good thing in my view.

Seth Brundle · 06-02-2018 9:41am

I fail to see how we would benefit in any way by leaving the EU. Can someone who thinks an Irish Exit* would be a good thing please enlighten me?

* I'm not going to use the stupid Irexit term

Beechwoodspark · 06-02-2018 9:59am

Group think about anything is not ideal so for that reason alone I would like a few dissenting and at times awkward voices to be heard on our relationship with the EU. In my opinion some political parties are far too naive in their dealings with Europe.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 10:21am

The only way that Ireland could actually leave the EU and survive in any meaningful way would be to rejoin the UK; even that would be economic suicide.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 10:55am

Gravelly wrote: »

It was telling how virulent the response to the meeting at the weekend was by media and the usual Twitter mob.

It tells me that people in Ireland recognize utter lunacy when they see it.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 10:59am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

It tells me that people in Ireland recognize utter lunacy when they see it.

"Lunacy" - funny how any difference of political opinion here is couched in emotive terms, often related to mental illness. You'd think anyone who values democracy wouldn't be so scared of someone peacefully expressing dissent.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:00am

Gravelly wrote: »

Regardless of whether you agree with the whole Irexit thing or not, Ireland needs a few dissenting political voices. It was telling how virulent the response to the meeting at the weekend was by media and the usual Twitter mob. This is the first generation ever that is more conservative than its predecessor (disguised as liberalism), where anyone that doesn't fall strictly into line with the consensus is shouted down, with increasing hysteria.

I, for one, think that the blanket ignoring of "dissenting political voices" which amount to little more than "underpants gnome" logic (i.e. Step 1: Irexit; Step 2: ???; Step 3: Profit) is exactly the opposite of that you claim it is.

Anything that shakes that mentality is a good thing in my view.

I think I fundamentally disagree with this. I'm trying to find a realistic hypothetical situation where you'd be correct, but I'm struggling.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:02am

Gravelly wrote: »

"Lunacy" - funny how any difference of political opinion here is couched in emotive terms, often related to mental illness. You'd think anyone who values democracy wouldn't be so scared of someone peacefully expressing dissent.

The word "lunacy" has not been used in the manner in which you imply since approximately the 1930s. Your post is deflection, pure and simple.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 11:03am

Gravelly wrote: »

"Lunacy" - funny how any difference of political opinion here is couched in emotive terms, often related to mental illness. You'd think anyone who values democracy wouldn't be so scared of someone peacefully expressing dissent.

Except that it isn't a difference of opinion at all. It's much more than that. Farage, Banks, Baker and the plenty of other people pushing for Brexit did it because they hate the EU. This "Irexit" nonsense is just a feeble attempt to revive the anti-EU momentum which has fizzled out thankfully. The Irish can see the mess that the UK has gotten itself into. Therefore, lunacy for wanting what they're having is perfectly apt.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:03am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I, for one, think that the blanket ignoring of "dissenting political voices" which amount to little more than "underpants gnome" logic (i.e. Step 1: Irexit; Step 2: ???; Step 3: Profit) is exactly the opposite of that you claim it is.

I think I fundamentally disagree with this. I'm trying to find a realistic hypothetical situation where you'd be correct, but I'm struggling.

So you think there should only be consent with the status quo? I find that fascinating. I'd find it horrifying if I thought there was a large majority who thought like you though. History has many lessons to teach us, and an important one is that when everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:04am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The word "lunacy" has not been used in the manner in which you imply since approximately the 1930s. Your post is deflection, pure and simple.

Deflection from what?

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:05am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Except that it isn't a difference of opinion at all. It's much more than that. Farage, Banks, Baker and the plenty of other people pushing for Brexit did it because they hate the EU. This "Irexit" nonsense is just a feeble attempt to revive the anti-EU momentum which has fizzled out thankfully. The Irish can see the mess that the UK has gotten itself into. Therefore, lunacy for wanting what they're having is perfectly apt.

If it's such obvious "lunacy" then why get so worked up about it? Let people have their "lunatic" alternative view, it might keep the smart, sane ones honest.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:12am

Gravelly wrote: »

So you think there should only be consent with the status quo? I find that fascinating. I'd find it horrifying if I thought there was a large majority who thought like you though. History has many lessons to teach us, and an important one is that when everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.

That's not what I said at all.

I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

weisses · 06-02-2018 11:12am

Gravelly wrote: »

So you think there should only be consent with the status quo? I find that fascinating. I'd find it horrifying if I thought there was a large majority who thought like you though. History has many lessons to teach us, and an important one is that when everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.

What status Quo ?

So If a vast majority of a population is happy with how things are ... they are actually not thinking ?

Or to reverse that ... If a majority of people is thinking the same by wanting to leave the EU you actually say no one is thinking ?

jimmycrackcorm · 06-02-2018 11:12am

Gravelly wrote:

Regardless of whether you agree with the whole Irexit thing or not, Ireland needs a few dissenting political voices. It was telling how virulent the response to the meeting at the weekend was by media and the usual Twitter mob. This is the first generation ever that is more conservative than its predecessor (disguised as liberalism), where anyone that doesn't fall strictly into line with the consensus is shouted down, with increasing hysteria. Anything that shakes that mentality is a good thing in my view.

So dissent for the sake of dissenting?

There's no comparison for the growth in Ireland since the seventies and eighties that can be attributed to EU membership when it comes to the benefits for the UK.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:15am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's not what I said at all.

I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

Eh, no. Anarchy is (according to the dictionary):

a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

People expressing an opinion, regardless of the validity or otherwise of that opinion, is not anarchy by any definition.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:17am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

So dissent for the sake of dissenting?

There's no comparison for the growth in Ireland since the seventies and eighties that can be attributed to EU membership when it comes to the benefits for the UK.

If you want to put it like that, dissent for the sake of dissenting. I would be opposed to Irexit (unless the EU disintegrates further) but I am happy that there are people considering the alternatives, even if I don't agree with that alternative. It is a good thing to see what could or might be, even if it never happens.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:20am

Gravelly wrote: »

Eh, no. Anarchy is (according to the dictionary):

a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

People expressing an opinion, regardless of the validity or otherwise of that opinion, is not anarchy by any definition.

...more deflection I see.

People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:26am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

...more deflection I see.

People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.

Again, you haven't said what I'm deflecting from - do you just use deflection as a kind of catch-all dismissal of any opinion you don't like?

You believe that anyone who isn't pro-EU is simplistic and unrealistic? Why? In other EU countries there are mainstream politicians and parties that are not pro-EU - are they all "lunatics"? Is the entire population of Norway mad?

Again, I find this violent opposition to alternative views to be strange, and bordering on fascistic.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 11:26am

Gravelly wrote: »

So you think there should only be consent with the status quo? I find that fascinating. I'd find it horrifying if I thought there was a large majority who thought like you though. History has many lessons to teach us, and an important one is that when everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.

So one guy is dancing on the edge of the cliffs of Moher singing "I'm a freeee biird!" and you think it is horrifying that there is a consensus among the crowd watching that he is a reckless idiot?

You think it is healthy that some people in the crowd are saying "that looks like fun!"?

No. Brexit is mad. Irexit is mad squared.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:31am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So one guy is dancing on the edge of the cliffs of Moher singing "I'm a freeee biird!" and you think it is horrifying that there is a consensus among the crowd watching that he is a reckless idiot?

You think it is healthy that some people in the crowd are saying "that looks like fun!"?

No. Brexit is mad. Irexit is mad squared.

In your hypothetical case, yes. But that's not a fair comparison - a better one would be "if someone expresses the opinion that it would be cool to basejump off the cliffs of moher, he is mad and dangerous and must be stopped"

And your last line misses the point. Brexit may or may not prove to be "mad" (there's the mental illness comparison again), and Irexit, in my opinion, is certainly not desirable at this time, but why get ones knickers all bunched up if other people think it might be a good idea? Democracy is based on the will of the majority, as long as the majority agree with you, who cares what a few dissenters say? If the majority agree with the dissenters, then, by your logic, you are the mad one!

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:37am

Gravelly wrote: »

Again, you haven't said what I'm deflecting from - do you just use deflection as a kind of catch-all dismissal of any opinion you don't like?

No, but you're using deflection to focus in on one point whilst ignoring the bulk of the point.

You believe that anyone who isn't pro-EU is simplistic and unrealistic? Why? In other EU countries there are mainstream politicians and parties that are not pro-EU - are they all "lunatics"? Is the entire population of Norway mad?

You're putting words in my mouth again. I think this conversation is done, why not go look at what I actually said.

Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. Some aren't, but they tend to have legitimate points backed by evidence and facts - are they correct in their opinions? Probably not, but at least it's more than let's "shake it up".

Again, I find this violent opposition to alternative views to be strange, and bordering on fascistic.

...and I think wanting to "shake up" the system on the basis of an unsupported opinion, basically just for the craic, is strange and bordering on anarchistic.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:39am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

No, but you're using deflection to focus in on one point whilst ignoring the bulk of the point.

You're putting words in my mouth again. I think this conversation is done, why not go look at what I actually said.

Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. Some aren't, but they tend to have legitimate points backed by evidence and facts - are they correct in their opinions? Probably not, but at least it's more than let's "shake it up".

...and I think wanting to "shake up" the system on the basis of an unsupported opinion, basically just for the craic, is strange and bordering on anarchistic.

:rolleyes: And I'm the one deflecting!

Hotblack Desiato · 06-02-2018 11:41am

There's a big difference between expressing an alternative view and living in an alternative reality

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:43am

Gravelly wrote: »

but why get ones knickers all bunched up if other people think it might be a good idea?

Because it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous opinion based nowhere close to reality with seemingly no basis for doing it other than... just because!?

I'm trying to think of an analogy, but they're all just as absurd as the initial suggestion of Irexit for the sake of it.

Like if you could provide even one coherent and evidence-based point as to why/how Irexit would be a good idea and how it would actually work, you might have an opinion worth debating. But until then, there's nothing to discuss.

Democracy is based on the will of the majority, as long as the majority agree with you, who cares what a few dissenters say? If the majority agree with the dissenters, then, by your logic, you are the mad one!

Just because the majority want to do something doesn't mean it's not an insane idea. That's why we have a government and we don't just do a text-in X Factor vote for everything. Also, a lot of people are just totally ignorant and/or uneducated on certain things - economics being a big one that people don't seem to understand.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:43am

Gravelly wrote: »

:rolleyes: And I'm the one deflecting!

Yes, and in fact you're doing it now by continuing to fail to address any point in my posts.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 11:49am

Gravelly wrote: »

If it's such obvious "lunacy" then why get so worked up about it? Let people have their "lunatic" alternative view, it might keep the smart, sane ones honest.

People have a right to protest and, arguably a duty to call snake oil salesmen like Farage out on what they're peddling.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:50am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Yes, and in fact you're doing it now by continuing to fail to address any point in my posts.

You aren't making any point other than any opinion I disagree with is insane and you are insane if you think anyone should be allowed to disagree with me
I've addressed that "point" multiple times.

Obviously there's a new "point" in your above post, where you seem to be dismissing democracy as "a text-in X Factor vote" (whatever that means), but I think I'll take your advice on that one and dismiss it as insanity.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 11:52am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

People have a right to protest and, arguably a duty to call snake oil salesmen like Farage out on what they're peddling.

I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:56am

Gravelly wrote: »

You aren't making any point other than any opinion I disagree with is insane and you are insane if you think anyone should be allowed to disagree with me

That's not even slightly what I said

I've addressed that "point" multiple times.

You've seemingly failed to address the actual point raised though.

Obviously there's a new "point" in your above post, where you seem to be dismissing democracy as "a text-in X Factor vote" (whatever that means), but I think I'll take your advice on that one and dismiss it as insanity.

Again, I think the crux of the discussion is going right over your head and you're picking small points to focus on rather than the actual substance of the discussion. Irexit is a dumb idea with no rationale, no evidence to support its merits, not even an iota of thought gone into how it would work or what its consequences would be. I think listening to such an opinion would be a massive waste of everyone's time.

FreudianSlippers · 06-02-2018 11:57am

Gravelly wrote: »

I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

They don't have a right to have anyone listen to that opinion. A major problem we have in discourse at the moment is the unfounded belief that one's opinion is as valid as that of an expert or a person who has an evidence-based opinion.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 12:04pm

Gravelly wrote: »

People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

Yet when people object to Farage & jahn Waters nonsense, you claim this is bordering on fascistic?

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 12:06pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's not even slightly what I said

Isn't it?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

economic suicide.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. .

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Because it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous opinion based nowhere close to reality with seemingly no basis for doing it
Just because the majority want to do something doesn't mean it's not an insane idea. Also, a lot of people are just totally ignorant and/or uneducated

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You've seemingly failed to address the actual point raised though.

I haven't. I addressed it numerous times. You just don't like counter opinion - mine or anyone else's, and your reaction is to dismiss any opinion you don't like.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Again, I think the crux of the discussion is going right over your head

How wonderfully condescending of you.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

and you're picking small points to focus on rather than the actual substance of the discussion. Irexit is a dumb idea with no rationale, no evidence to support its merits, not even an iota of thought gone into how it would work or what its consequences would be. I think listening to such an opinion would be a massive waste of everyone's time.

So what if it is a waste of everyone's time? Don't listen to counter opinions if they are a waste of your valuable time. That still doesn't give you the right to deny others the opportunity to listen to counter opinions and dismiss or accept them as they wish.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 12:07pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yet when people object to Farage & jahn Waters nonsense, you claim this is bordering on fascistic?

I didn't claim that at all though.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 12:08pm

Gravelly wrote: »

I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

Nobody here has said otherwise.

Irexit party yay or nay?

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