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I evicted my lodger

  • 03-02-2018 7:03pm
    #1
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭


    Was renting out a room in my home to a HAP tenant since September.

    As he was making my life a nightmare, and no rent has arrived into my bank account since the first initial payment anyway, I gave him a 2 weeks notice to get out.

    He refused to leave, so I changed the locks, and put his stuff out to the front-yard, which he collected.

    Someone was there from Threshold and they took a recording.

    As far as I know the Residential Tenancies Act doesn't apply here, as I was renting a room in my home.
    But someone told me it's still illegal eviction, even if he was just a lodger.
    I'm confused now, as I think illegal eviction is defined in the Residential Tenancies Act.

    Can I get into trouble because of this?

    Thanks,
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,387 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Nope. A licensee is a paying guest. When a guest overstays their welcome, it's perfectly reasonable to show them the door.

    'Somebody from Threshold' had no more business being there in an official capacity than I would have had.

    Edit: You didn't evict your lodger. You told them they could no longer live in your home because the arrangement no longer suited you. Also, as the HAP payment should have been going electronically to you each month, I'd be chasing up the missing amount from the relevant authority.


  • #3
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Nothing to worry about. A lodger in your house has no rights.


  • #4
    Heres Johnny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,738 ✭✭✭Heres Johnny


    If you want to rent out a room again there are plenty of very well paid professionals in this country that can afford it crying out to rent a room. Don't bother with HAP lodgers in the future. Dont let it put you off either its great money tax free especially if you are in a city where the demand is. Pick and choose your lodger carefully you have to share your house with them.


  • #5
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,361 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    From thresholds own website :
    Rooms that are not self-contained

    If the part of your home that you rent out is not self-contained, you are not covered by landlord and tenant legislation, so the rights and obligations under that legislation do not apply to you. For example, you are not obliged to register as a landlord with the RTB, provide a rent book to the tenant or ensure that the accommodation provided meets any minimum physical standards.

    This also means that private tenants living in your home are living under a licensee agreement, not a tenancy agreement, and are really only entitled to reasonable noticeif you choose to terminate the agreement. Tenants are, however, entitled to refer disputes under the Small Claims Procedure.

    Common claims that are heard under the Small Claims Procedure include disputes about retention of a tenant's deposit for what they consider unfair reasons, or deductions from rent for damage to property that is over and above normal 'wear and tear'.

    So the tenant could go to the SCC but still wouldn't have a leg to stand on if payments aren't up to date.


  • #6
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Thanks for the replies.

    I have also made my research before replacing the locks, and I was convinced that unlike a tenant he has no rights.
    However, someone who is studying law told me that even though he was just a licensee, I should not have taken the law into my own hands, and I can get into big trouble if they show the recording to RTB.

    Btw I gave him 2 weeks notice, and he and the threshold guy was saying that my notice was illegal, it should have been at least 28 days (I know they are wrong in this)


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  • #7
    James Bond Junior
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭James Bond Junior


    Threshold are a charity. Nothing they can do. I do the rent a room and on my 2nd lodger moving in I presented them with a list of rules etc. Made it clear that they are a licensee and has them sign a copy for me and one for themselves. I know it doesn't really matter but it sets clear boundaries from day one ie rent is due on a set date, no food in bedroom etc.


  • #8
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Indeed Threshold can do nothing, but RTB can - according to that person studying law...because of her opinion, at this point I'm only about 70% sure I'm right, and it was like 99% before.


  • #9
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    As we're in the legal discussion forum rather than A&P can we drop this no rights thing. Licencees in RAR relationships have a right to reasonable notice. Now it looks like the OP did that and the RTB have no jurisdiction here but this is not somewhere for dispensing legal advice. We don't know all the surrounding facts - like for example one already raised.


  • #10
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,387 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    gark wrote: »
    However, someone who is studying law told me that even though he was just a licensee, I should not have taken the law into my own hands, and I can get into big trouble if they show the recording to RTB.
    In the very early stages of their studies, I'd imagine? :D

    You didn't take the law into your own hands. You decided who you didn't want living in your home.


  • #11
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,037 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    gark,

    RTB has no jurisdiction whatsoever in a licensee situation. Even Threshold have no say.


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  • #12
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    gark wrote: »
    Indeed Threshold can do nothing, but RTB can - according to that person studying law...because of her opinion, at this point I'm only about 70% sure I'm right, and it was like 99% before.

    People studying law have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. They certainly won't cover the RTA in any detail at undergrad.


  • #13
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Great, so according to everyone here, I should not worry.
    I will make an appointment in one of these free legal advice centres, just to be 100%
    Thanks!


  • #14
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Yeah who is the "relevant authority" is also a question now. He was on the homeless HAP, so even though I filled out a form given by the council, the first (and only) payment + deposit came from Focus Ireland. I initially got an email from someone at the council that they approved this tenancy, but strangely she has never replied my emails when I ask what happened to the payments. Tried to call them as well, they didn't pick it up, will try again next week.


  • #15
    mdebets
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭mdebets


    gark wrote: »
    and put his stuff out to the front-yard, which he collected.
    While the eviction was legal, this bit could get you into trouble. If some of his stuff was damaged or stolen while it was sitting in your front yard, he has a claim against you for this.


  • #16
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    mdebets wrote: »
    While the eviction was legal, this bit could get you into trouble. If some of his stuff was damaged or stolen while it was sitting in your front yard, he has a claim against you for this.

    I was afraid of this, but he picked them up immediately and put them in the car. I didn't even have time to put everything out, some books/small stuff are still inside, I sent him an email to make arrangements to collect them.

    Btw I also warned him before the event that I won't be responsible if any of his stuff gets stolen or damaged while sitting in the front-yard - not sure if it counts though.


  • #17
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Threshold regularly give totally incorrect advice.


  • #18
    Seve OB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    OP you did the right thing. Whatever about the legals of it,
    and it does appear you are covered there, the F'er was essentially stealing from you and people who do this need to be accountable for their actions.

    Well done.


  • #19
    James Bond Junior
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭James Bond Junior


    pilly wrote: »
    Threshold regularly give totally illegal advice.

    Fixed that there for you chief.


  • #20
    davindub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    pilly wrote: »
    Threshold regularly give totally incorrect advice.

    Depends what the perspective is. They do help tenants understand their rights, but don't provide legal advice in the same way a solicitor would, although a number of solicitors are involved with the charity.

    If they are advising someone on how to avoid homelessness for as long as possible, and the affected person asks what happens if they don't vacate, they will advise on what the process of eviction is. In that aspect they are generally correct.


  • #21
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Seve OB wrote: »
    OP you did the right thing. Whatever about the legals of it,
    and it does appear you are covered there, the F'er was essentially stealing from you and people who do this need to be accountable for their actions.

    Well done.

    Well, yes, he is actually not even entitled to the HAP as he works full-time - just gets cash in hand.


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  • #22
    sweetie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,796 ✭✭✭sweetie


    Good on you and get onto the revenue now too. Too many spongers taking money from the coffers.


  • #23
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,542 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    As we're in the legal discussion forum rather than A&P can we drop this no rights thing. Licencees in RAR relationships have a right to reasonable notice. Now it looks like the OP did that and the RTB have no jurisdiction here but this is not somewhere for dispensing legal advice. We don't know all the surrounding facts - like for example one already raised.

    SEeing as you ST Cogkey Esq, LlB have brought up the law, is this really about an eviction or an ejectment?


  • #24
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Marcusm wrote: »
    SEeing as you ST Cogkey Esq, LlB have brought up the law, is this really about an eviction or an ejectment?

    Eitherway the licencee is entitled to reasonable notice in RAR scenarios. If you're trying to prove you know more than me drunk (or with a broken keyboard), fair enough we know you do it doesn't change the fact that every piece of advice out there from threshold to citizens advice say reasonable notice has to be given.


  • #25
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,077 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    gark wrote: »
    Yeah who is the "relevant authority" is also a question now. He was on the homeless HAP, so even though I filled out a form given by the council, the first (and only) payment + deposit came from Focus Ireland. I initially got an email from someone at the council that they approved this tenancy, but strangely she has never replied my emails when I ask what happened to the payments. Tried to call them as well, they didn't pick it up, will try again next week.

    The council won't tell you anything under Data Protection legislation. Plenty of threads in Accommodation and Property of landlords with tenants in the house not receiving HAP payments and the council won't provide any information. If you never received any payment from the HAP it means that the tenant never paid their share to the council, but the council can't tell you that!


  • #26
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Can you clarify on whether it was actually a room you had to go through your main living space to get to, or a granny flat type thing which was self contained?


  • #27
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote:
    Eitherway the licencee is entitled to reasonable notice in RAR scenarios. If you're trying to prove you know more than me drunk (or with a broken keyboard), fair enough we know you do it doesn't change the fact that every piece of advice out there from threshold to citizens advice say reasonable notice has to be given.


    And the OP gave 2 weeks notice so what's your point?


  • #28
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    pilly wrote: »
    And the OP gave 2 weeks notice so what's your point?

    Read all the posts...


  • #29
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Can you clarify on whether it was actually a room you had to go through your main living space to get to, or a granny flat type thing which was self contained?

    It was just one room in my 3 bedroom house.
    Not a self contained unit.


  • #30
    Aye Bosun
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Aye Bosun


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Read all the posts...

    The OP is the property owner.

    The Guy on HAP is a licensee,

    Op has received one payment from HAP since September. Therefore no rent paid for 4 months to date

    Op gave 2 weeks notice to licensee which is very reasonable in the circumstances. Note ‘reasonable notice is not defined in any legislation and open to interpretation.

    Op changed the locks and removed the problem from his home and rightly so.

    As this is a licensee arrangement, RTB is unavaible to the HAP guy as this is not under the Tenacy regulations.

    Small claims court is open to the HAP guy for rentention of deposit with doesn’t apply in the case.

    OP you have nothing to worry about. I’m a owner occupier too, i’ve been in a similar situation before the only thing I would have done different is in relation to his belonging, I would have kept them inside the property and granted him access to collect his stuff while heavily supervised. The fact is tho that your licensee was outside to get his stuff so no damages done but good to know for future reference.

    Again, you did nothing outside the law, do not worry about it, get on with your life and forgot him!


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  • #31
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The council won't tell you anything under Data Protection legislation. Plenty of threads in Accommodation and Property of landlords with tenants in the house not receiving HAP payments and the council won't provide any information. If you never received any payment from the HAP it means that the tenant never paid their share to the council, but the council can't tell you that!

    Thanks.
    When I mentioned it to my lodger, he said he will check. Turns out he just forgot to fill out a form, but it's ok now, I should get the money soon, never did though.


  • #32
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Aye Bosun wrote: »
    The OP is the property owner.

    The Guy on HAP is a licensee,

    Op has received one payment from HAP since September. Therefore no rent paid for 4 months to date

    Op gave 2 weeks notice to licensee which is very reasonable in the circumstances. Note ‘reasonable notice is not defined in any legislation and open to interpretation.

    Op changed the locks and removed the problem from his home and rightly so.

    As this is a licensee arrangement, RTB is unavaible to the HAP guy as this is not under the Tenacy regulations.

    Small claims court is open to the HAP guy for rentention of deposit with doesn’t apply in the case.

    OP you have nothing to worry about. I’m a owner occupier too, i’ve been in a similar situation before the only thing I would have done different is in relation to his belonging, I would have kept them inside the property and granted him access to collect his stuff while heavily supervised. The fact is tho that your licensee was outside to get his stuff so no damages done but good to know for future reference.

    Again, you did nothing outside the law, do not worry about it, get on with your life and forgot him!

    440619.jpg


  • #33
    Aye Bosun
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Aye Bosun


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    440619.jpg

    Not quite sure what that’s meant to mean..


  • #34
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Aye Bosun wrote: »
    Not quite sure what that’s meant to mean..

    :pac:

    Don't worry it's a tangential that you've ended up in by quoting me and missing that I've already said that proper notice was given. Marcusm decided to bring me down a peg and Pilly piled in without reading my earlier posts. The law student jibe seems to have been completely missed but then I have a singular sense of humour.


  • #35
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,602 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    No wonder people on HAP can’t find Accomodation. Another thing that would have put me off ever before thus layabout moved in, unemployed they’d be in the house all day long meaning increased wear and tear, increased utility usage and general annoyance.


  • #36
    Aye Bosun
    Registered Users Posts: 349 ✭✭Aye Bosun


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    :pac:

    Don't worry it's a tangential that you've ended up in by quoting me and missing that I've already said that proper notice was given. Marcusm decided to bring me down a peg and Pilly piled in without reading my earlier posts. The law student jibe seems to have been completely missed but then I have a singular sense of humour.

    Ah I didn’t even realise i’d quoted you, sorry about that, was meant to be an independent post. My bad 🀗


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  • #37
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Aye Bosun wrote: »
    Ah I didn’t even realise i’d quoted you, sorry about that, was meant to be an independent post. My bad ��

    Ah sorry on my part also. It was a good synopsis to be fair I'm just in an odd mood. As the thread had sort of run it's course I was messing... sorry to you and the OP. I'll shut up now.


  • #38
    exaisle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,675 ✭✭✭exaisle


    gark wrote: »
    Indeed Threshold can do nothing, but RTB can - according to that person studying law...because of her opinion, at this point I'm only about 70% sure I'm right, and it was like 99% before.

    I think she should study a lot more before giving inaccurate opinions.
    Your lodger was a licencee and effectively has no rights....and even less than that if they haven't paid rent.

    Nothing will come of this. Get some decent person in who'll pay rent. There are lots to be found. In fairness, having a troublesome time with somebody living in your house (either as a licencee or as a tenant) makes you really appreciate when you get somebody good. Good tenants are worth their weight in gold!


  • #39
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,542 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Eitherway the licencee is entitled to reasonable notice in RAR scenarios. If you're trying to prove you know more than me drunk (or with a broken keyboard), fair enough we know you do it doesn't change the fact that every piece of advice out there from threshold to citizens advice say reasonable notice has to be given.

    Sorry, wasn't trying to be rude in any way. I thought this might have come up before - apologies if I am wrong. I just thought eviction was in the context of someone who occupied as a lawful tenant and ejectment related to those who occupied on another lawful basis (such as an overstaying guest).


  • #40
    Marcusm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,542 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    :pac:

    Don't worry it's a tangential that you've ended up in by quoting me and missing that I've already said that proper notice was given. Marcusm decided to bring me down a peg and Pilly piled in without reading my earlier posts. The law student jibe seems to have been completely missed but then I have a singular sense of humour.

    Just saw this too,; didn't mean my post to be taken this way at all. I really enjoy your contributions and frequent explanations.


  • #41
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Just saw this too,; didn't mean my post to be taken this way at all. I really enjoy your contributions and frequent explanations.

    Ah sorry. Being oversensitive. Very much appreciate your posts have learnt a lot from them.


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  • #42
    gark
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭gark


    Update:

    "I think you will be allright" - That's what they told me in FLAC after I had told them the story.


  • #43
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    gark wrote: »
    Update:

    "I think you will be allright" - That's what they told me in FLAC after I had told them the story.

    Excellent news:).


  • #44
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,733 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Very interesting that Threshold would show up hassling you and defending a guy who hadn't paid rent for four months. What gives them that mandate.....


  • #45
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Very interesting that Threshold would show up hassling you and defending a guy who hadn't paid rent for four months. What gives them that mandate.....
    Depends on what they were told by the guy


  • #46
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    kbannon wrote: »
    Depends on what they were told by the guy

    This is it. I’m often highly amused by how a tenant will initially present their version of events, and how the story will change after some Judge Judy like gentle interrogation.
    One girl said initially that she was being unfairly evicted for what the landlord alleged was vandalising his property. Initially she alleged that this vandalism was just normal wear and tear, but after 15 minutes or so she admitted that she did have the bath taken out to turn the bathroom into a small rescue center for cats....in a house with a specific no pets clause....but she was going to have the bath put back in when the cats had been rehomed...


  • #47
    Suzyq
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Suzyq


    I would imagine that the person who presented themselves as working for threshold was one of the tenant’s friends. Just an attempt to intimidate you.


  • #48
    Beethoven9th
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Beethoven9th


    pilly wrote: »
    Nothing to worry about. A lodger in your house has no rights.

    Everyone has rights....


  • #49
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Beethoven9th wrote: »
    Everyone has rights....

    The RTB is the governing body in Ireland dealing with tenancies and the rights and obligations of both tenant and landlord.
    As someone who you have allowed to rent a room in the house in which you live is not a tenant, and you are not a landlord, then none of those rights or obligations pertain to either of the parties, licensee or homeowner.


  • #50
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    splinter65 wrote: »
    The RTB is the governing body in Ireland dealing with tenancies and the rights and obligations of both tenant and landlord.
    As someone who you have allowed to rent a room in the house in which you live is not a tenant, and you are not a landlord, then none of those rights or obligations pertain to either of the parties, licensee or homeowner.

    No but there is a right to reasonable notice.


  • #51
    scamalert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,739 ✭✭✭scamalert


    im amazed how some people take such things lightly, Op mentioned just first payment, no idea of duration, but come first day cash has to be in the acc if its not should be final notice and good bye out the doors.

    just draft proper letter of rules next time get person to sign it take photo of both, your house your rules simple, dont see how some people put up with such crap, i know theres plenty of s***y landlords but none the less its same with tenants.


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