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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

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    #32
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,063 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    sdanseo wrote: »
    I'm sure there are many thousands of people very happy in their rural houses each on an acre of land. Wonder how much of it you utilise other than for staring at.

    Unfortunately the collective are causing planning to be an uphill struggle and even more unfortunately a quick peek at google maps tells you the damage is done.

    As well as staring at it, there is also the requirement for sufficient space for a septic tank (service paid for by the occupier) and a well (ditto) at regulation distance from each other, and the boundaries, and other premises etc.

    And in fact the majority of these houses are not on an acre, they are on a half acre.

    This is not a vote for one-off ribbon development, but planning departments are now changing the situation. It is getting staggeringly difficult to obtain planning and pretty much impossible for the kind of one off houses you are discussing. The ones that are already there - and I agree there are some eyesores - were permitted, its hard to blame the people living there for choosing to use the land as they were allowed to.

    The implied suggestion in the thread that the entire population should be confined to cities is not very realistic; how is agriculture to be managed, and the services for agriculture, and the services for people engaged in agriculture, schools, shops etc, and the people offering those services, and so on and on.


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    #33
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,510 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    looksee wrote: »
    Could you expand on that please?

    In terms of income tax, corporation tax, capital gains and VAT, Dublin pays 55pc of the total country with only having 28pc of the population!

    In 21 counties, households receive more benifits than they pay in tax in the aggregate! The exceptions are Dublin, three of its adjoining counties, that's Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and then Kilkenny and Cork. The economic powers that make the money for the rest of the country.


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    #34
    368100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭368100


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    In terms of income tax, corporation tax, capital gains and VAT, Dublin pays 55pc of the total country with only having 28pc of the population!

    In 21 counties, households receive more benifits than they pay in tax in the aggregate! The exceptions are Dublin, three of its adjoining counties, that's Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and then Kilkenny and Cork. The economic powers that make the money for the rest of the country.

    Is that data based on where the taxpayer lives or where the business they work for is based?


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    #35
    CarlosHarpic
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 108 ✭✭CarlosHarpic


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Thousands of children playing Gaelic games every year organised by volunteers. GAA clubs up and down the country are opening their facilities to provide a safe place for people to walk and exercise at night.

    Talk **** about the GAA all you want, talking rubbish in my opinion. Also forms a community spirit for areas.

    *yawn* the GAA are just a (barely) secular version of the Catholic church. The are a huge part of the issue. I am amazed people here can't see this. All them ribbon houses lead to GAA pitches in the end. Any time there is a mention of rural depopulation it always comes down to some townland not having enough players to field a bogball team being the main issue.

    This "crisis" eventually becomes the mess we are in now.


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    #36
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,467 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    CarlosHarpic wrote: »
    These kinds of people are driven by one thing only when you really get down to it. The GAA. It always comes down to making sure that the Parish Games have enough players in each muddy rain-soaked field next to a packed church for sunday mass. I have also long suspected that the GAA is unoffically involved in 'sweetening' these kinds of groups. The Catholic Church too. The weaponised Comley Maidiens faction.

    Apart from their own myopia, they only other function they serve is to hold this country back and make it as expensive as possible.

    Can citizens of the country not expect the government to serve all of the citizens in all places? Why should anyone want the decimation of their own community and if they community has enough spirit to organise a team then they are all the more suitable for dismantling in your view? The increased expense will come when everyone has to move to €500,000 apartments in Dublin which is exactly what the property interests funding the politicians want. Are these property interests funding some shills in this thread? This is about as reasonable a suggestion as the the above. Or perhaps British interests want everyone to move to the Pale.


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    #37
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,517 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    CarlosHarpic wrote:
    These kinds of people are driven by one thing only when you really get down to it. The GAA. It always comes down to making sure that the Parish Games have enough players in each muddy rain-soaked field next to a packed church for sunday mass. I have also long suspected that the GAA is unoffically involved in 'sweetening' these kinds of groups. The Catholic Church too. The weaponised Comley Maidiens faction.

    Apart from their own myopia, they only other function they serve is to hold this country back and make it as expensive as possible.

    This. This is nonsense. All of it. Every bit.


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    #38
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,165 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Reati wrote: »
    What a sh*tty attitude. Seriously.

    They pay taxes for those services just like you. Public services are not a business or profit making exercise. All people who live in this county deserve the necessary public services no matter where they choose to live.

    If you don't think the Government of Ireland should provide services to "the blight" then there should be a rural tax refund as they aren't getting services.

    I'd take rural Ireland any day over living beside Fintan,Grace Chloe and their 2.3 kids in a 3 bed semi in South Dublin by the Luas line with views of the mountains through the apartment blocks next door.

    Yeah, but everything costs more when you're inefficiently spaced. Take a Dublin postman, he makes a drop ever 40-60 seconds, a rural one makes one every 3-10 minutes maybe. Far less effective for the same wage, so you need more.

    Nobody in Europe has dwelling patterns like us (excepting parts of the UK). Know why? 'Cause its bloody stupid.


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    #39
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,874 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Can citizens of the country not expect the government to serve all of the citizens in all places? Why should anyone want the decimation of their own community and if they community has enough spirit to organise a team then they are all the more suitable for dismantling in your view? The increased expense will come when everyone has to move to €500,000 apartments in Dublin which is exactly what the property interests funding the politicians want. Are these property interests funding some shills in this thread? This is about as reasonable a suggestion as the the above. Or perhaps British interests want everyone to move to the Pale.

    There's no requirement to move to Dublin, or any city, all that needs to happen is people move to the village or town. Then it's easy to provide facilities for people. The way it is now is that people need cars so skip the local village or town and then complain that the village is dieing as they drive past it.


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    #40
    Doltanian
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,201 ✭✭✭Doltanian


    We are much closer to America in this policy, Irish love their Space and living in towns and cities is prohibitively expensive because our planners refuse to build upwards. I live in almost 400 acres in our house and farm my great grand parents fought the English for. What rural Ireland needs more than anything else is fibre optic broadband and improved access to the cities for commuting ideally not by car.


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    #41
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    Choices, choices. Live in the city on top of the neighbours drinking recycled sewage or live in the sticks where you can shatter the beautiful quiet with loud love making.....it's a tough one


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    #42
    worded
    Registered Users Posts: 4,535 ✭✭✭worded


    Malayalam wrote: »
    Choices, choices. Live in the city on top of the neighbours drinking recycled sewage or live in the sticks where you can shatter the beautiful quiet with loud love making.....it's a tough one

    Lots of threads about brothels and badly sound proofed apartments where the neighbours might as well be in the sitting room with you. No thanks to Irish no regulation cheap apartments. Funk that


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    #43
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    worded wrote: »
    Lots of threads about brothels and badly sound proofed apartments where the neighbours might as well be in the sitting room with you. No thanks to Irish no regulation cheap apartments. Funk that

    Yup. Your fridge and their fridge can make beautiful music together.

    I guess the embarrassingly-intimate groans of the neighbours getting it on could serve as an erotic encouragement to city dwellers. So, there's that.


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    #44
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Doltanian wrote: »
    We are much closer to America in this policy, Irish love their Space and living in towns and cities is prohibitively expensive because our planners refuse to build upwards. I live in almost 400 acres in our house and farm my great grand parents fought the English for. What rural Ireland needs more than anything else is fibre optic broadband and improved access to the cities for commuting ideally not by car.
    How can you provide transport from areas with population densities in the single figures per km. The issue of course is you have to get into your car to drive to the bus stop sure at that stage you may be going 15 minutes out of your way on a half an hour journey.


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    #45
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    In terms of income tax, corporation tax, capital gains and VAT, Dublin pays 55pc of the total country with only having 28pc of the population!

    In 21 counties, households receive more benifits than they pay in tax in the aggregate! The exceptions are Dublin, three of its adjoining counties, that's Kildare, Meath and Wicklow and then Kilkenny and Cork. The economic powers that make the money for the rest of the country.

    As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

    I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.


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    #46
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

    If brexit proves anything its that it's hard enough to attract major players to Dublin let alone small provincial towns


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    #47
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,874 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

    I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

    There's no grant available for companies to set up in the Greater Dublin area and there are huge grants for the BMW region. The thing is that the companies are not choosing between Dublin or Cork/Limerick they are choosing between Dublin and Paris/Frankfort and on that stage Dublin is a tiny city with crap infrastructure which is being held back by parish pump politics, which are spiting the whole country to make sure that Dublin does not get proper development.


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    #48
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    If brexit proves anything its that it's hard enough to attract major players to Dublin let alone small provincial towns

    The majority of FS positions Dublin is getting due to Brexit are pretty basic back office administration jobs, these could be done by anyone with a business degree, they're not 300k a year highly qualified jobs, they're 30-50k. All they need is high quality internet & a pool of basic talent at any of the colleges in the Cities I named. 30-50k isn't as appealing in Dublin as it is in other EU cities as there's exceptionally high cost of living in Dublin. Limerick, Kilkenny & Waterford however don't have as high a cost of living. State Street are down in Kilkenny.


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    #49
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    The majority of FS positions Dublin is getting due to Brexit are pretty basic back office administration jobs, these could be done by anyone with a business degree, they're not 300k a year highly qualified jobs, they're 30-50k. All they need is high quality internet & a pool of basic talent at any of the colleges in the Cities I named. 30-50k isn't as appealing in Dublin as it is in other EU cities as there's exceptionally high cost of living in Dublin. Limerick, Kilkenny & Waterford however don't have as high a cost of living. State Street are down in Kilkenny.
    And yet the fact remains that they aren't in the cities/towns you named. Go figure


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    #50
    tastyt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭tastyt


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Ironically rural Ireland is being killed by the one off housing / road frontage brigade. The same people who are complaining about this plan.


    Just on this, I totally agree, its no wonder rural towns and villages are soulless with half the people living a mile or two outside and shopping in retail parks or even bigger towns nearby.

    Im just wondering though, does the uk have the same issues?? It seems any time ive been there that the rural towns and villages have much more of a buzz and community feel to them, is it a planning permission issue?


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    #51
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    And yet the fact remains that they aren't in the cities/towns you named. Go figure

    Except state street, as I mentioned, and others I didn't. They're not promoted well enough, as was my original point. I've in a previous role abroad been contacted by the IDA looking for FDI & it was Dublin they were pitching.


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    #52
    John_Rambo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,510 ✭✭✭John_Rambo


    368100 wrote: »
    Is that data based on where the taxpayer lives or where the business they work for is based?

    Excellent point. One off housing is killing the towns and villages of rural Ireland. All the jobs are going to Dublin. If people outside Dublin insist on a Dublincentric Ireland, a Dublincentric Ireland will prevail.

    Shunning dying cities, towns and villages to build one off houses dotted around the countryside will ensure the continual death of what once were vibrant, successful and populated towns, cities and villages.

    Town butchers, drapers, greengrocers, craft shops, bakers, restaurants, post offices, bars, garages, garda stations, surgeries, veterinarians etc... all shutting up shop surrounded by derelict and neglected houses is the direct result of bad planning where the car obsessed one off housing occupants drive to out of town to non Irish owned retailers to shop leaving the towns and villages unattractive to any brexit company trying to relocate to Ireland.

    Up to 10 billion a year spills out of Dublin to subsidise the result of this bad planning and neglect of indigenous business that once prospered in dying rural towns, villages and cities that once were and should now be the backbone of rural Ireland.

    It's a vicious circle. That 10 billion a year could be used to improve the city with much needed high rise development, underground, metro and improved cycle and public transport.


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    #53
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,280 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Ironically rural Ireland is being killed by the one off housing / road frontage brigade. The same people who are complaining about this plan.

    100%

    oversized ugly buildings with no services miles from the nearest town/village centre


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    #54
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    Except state street, as I mentioned, and others I didn't. They're not promoted well enough, as was my original point. I've in a previous role abroad been contacted by the IDA looking for FDI & it was Dublin they were pitching.
    I'm not from Dublin, but it is the only "world class" city we have, and it is right we promote it. The multinationals for the most part want to be where the infrastructure is - this isn't just physical transport infrastructure, but access to services like high-end accountants & solicitors, and access to a large pool of labour in sometimes very specialised roles.

    They don't want to be the biggest employer in Mullingar or Ballina, that was fine back in the days when we were attracting manufacturers who wanted untrained staff or were looking for apprentices.

    Rural Ireland needs to stop with the fantasies of attracting Intel, and start focusing on their strengths. Build the Greenways and hiking paths and get tourists visiting. Build facilities like shared services centres where people who are mobile can choose to work in a rural location providing services into the multinationals. Stop wasting money on railway infrastructure which will never, ever, attract heavy industry.


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    #55
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    sdanseo wrote:
    Within the confines of the Planning Acts, which unfortunately are not restrictive enough.


    I don't agree with that TBH. I think planning rules should be looked at but if I have land in the middle of longford and there is nothing for miles. I should be allowed to build a 17 storey house if I really want and pay for myself. But planning restrictions don't allow that.


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    #56
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    hmmm wrote: »
    I'm not from Dublin, but it is the only "world class" city we have, and it is right we promote it. The multinationals for the most part want to be where the infrastructure is - this isn't just physical transport infrastructure, but access to services like high-end accountants & solicitors, and access to a large pool of labour in sometimes very specialised roles.

    They don't want to be the biggest employer in Mullingar or Ballina, that was fine back in the days when we were attracting manufacturers who wanted untrained staff or were looking for apprentices.

    1. As cities go, while I love it, Dublin is far from world class on any level. Except maybe top 5 cost of living.

    2. Re the untrained staff point. Most of the FDI jobs we're getting are for very basically skilled labour. Fund accountants, Sales, SSC's, these aren't technical roles, they're entry level with maybe one skilled/experienced VP per 20.
    We're not getting the top jobs here no matter what the announcements might say. Googles Irish staff earn on average 40% of the average London Googler, despite the London office "supporting the Dublin office". It's not due to cost of living as from experience, you can live more affordably in London than Dublin (you can also live way more ostentatiously for multiples more in London if you so wish) it's that the good jobs don't come to Ireland.


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    #57
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »

    2. Re the untrained staff point. Most of the FDI jobs we're getting are for very basically skilled labour. Fund accountants, Sales, SSC's, these aren't technical roles, they're entry level with maybe one skilled/experienced VP per 20.
    We're not getting the top jobs here no matter what the announcements might say. Googles Irish staff earn on average 40% of the average London Googler, despite the London office "supporting the Dublin office". It's not due to cost of living as from experience, you can live more affordably in London than Dublin (you can also live way more ostentatiously for multiples more in London if you so wish) it's that the good jobs don't come to Ireland.

    You can't compare Googles operations in Dublin and the UK. Dublin being the European HQ has a lot of sales and administration jobs which brings down the average but the Dublin operation most certainly has lots of high end jobs


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    #58
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    hmmm wrote:
    Rural Ireland needs to stop with the fantasies of attracting Intel, and start focusing on their strengths..............



    .............Stop wasting money on railway infrastructure which will never, ever, attract heavy industry.

    You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

    What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

    Limerick cork Waterford and galway can attract tech companies. But infrastructure was not being funded because of glamour projects such as Dublin metro.

    If we tried to attract companies nationally it would relieve the strain on Dublin. Instead of trying to get Everyone to move to Dublin there would be more spread of our population. That means less housing, less power, less water and less refuse removal is needed in Dublin. It means rents and house prices in Dublin would also be more realistic. It should not be cheaper to buy a house than rent one. It also means that travel time in Dublin gets better as you don't have the whole country living there.

    While yes we need to develop Dublin. We can't ignore the needs of the other cities. We can't all just live in Dublin


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    #59
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mr.H wrote: »
    You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

    What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

    Limerick cork Waterford and galway can attract tech companies. But infrastructure was not being funded because of glamour projects such as Dublin metro.
    I'm not sure you noticed but the metro was never built so how it took funding from other projects barring a few million for planning is beyond me

    If you want to talk glamour projects looks at the rural bypasses and motorways built with very little demand.

    I do however agree we should look at Cork-Limerick as a counter to Dublin and the motorway between the two would certainly help. However people need to stop throwing in half the country with this list. It's Limerick-Cork perhaps Galway. It's not the above plus Kilkenny and Waterford and Cavan and Wexford etc.

    Also note when I say Cork-Limerick I'm taking about the urban area and surrounding areas not the middle of West Cork.


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    #60
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


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    #61
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    You can't compare Googles operations in Dublin and the UK. Dublin being the European HQ has a lot of sales and administration jobs which brings down the average but the Dublin operation most certainly has lots of high end jobs

    They have the same number of jobs in either office, Google London has higher quality jobs. Why do you think that is?


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