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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

Deja vu anyone?

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El Tarangu

Doltanian wrote: »

What rural Ireland needs more than anything else is fibre optic broadband and improved access to the cities for commuting ideally not by car.

Not that I disagree with you, but who do you propose should pay for that?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

snotboogie

ED E wrote: »

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Yeah we have sort of lost sight of the issue, my point was that FDI should be incentivised to come to Ireland, anywhere. But further large incentives should be given to set up in a tertiary city with low employment (would obviously need to suit on many levels, infrastructure, universities/IT's etc).
As it stands it's just creating a completely two tiered economy, 5k google staff push up house prices in Dublin, increases spending in already successful Dublin bars, cafes & shops. That could be spread better throughout the country to have other smaller businesses thrive.

I say this as someone who will from this point on always live in Dublin, but I have worked with plenty of Cork & Limerick people who'd love to move back if the right jobs were there.

Nobody is setting up an EMEA base anywhere other than Dublin. Its not happening.

Cork got an Apple contact centre. Thats not a HQ, its not high tech or high income. Fine.

Amazon Engineering and CS is Dublin. Their 2nd(4th, 8th, trade secret) DC is going to the west but a DC is 1000 racks per pair of hands, its not a big labour builder.

People love to think that Galway or Limerick could take a big office but they can't. Dublin is tiny, everywhere else is microscopic on the scale of multinationals.

The two biggest tech multinationals in the state are HQ'd outside of Dublin. Apple, which is far more than a call center is HQ'd in Cork and Dell is HQ'd in Limerick (despite having bigger operations in Cork and Dublin).

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

What's the alternative in policy? (I have a few ideas of what they might be and am ready to argue against )

Where do you start! I'm not sure anyone really knows what to do but there are interesting ideas out there, some ideas really are out there though. It would make you wonder, how much of a mess do we have to make before we realise, Jaysis this isn't working at all

[Deleted User]

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Very obvious to me it is, strangely many don't see it that way

What's the alternative in policy? (I have a few ideas of what they might be and am ready to argue against :P )

Pixel Eater

I'm from rural Ireland myself - specifically a small town where I grew up - but my parents moved to a one-off house a good few years ago several miles away. Now when I visit home, without complete access to a car, I find myself marooned in the house. Even if I want to go into the local town to a cafe/shop or for a pint I often can't. I'm just one case; how many shops/restaurants/pubs aren't visited because it's too much hassle to get to them?

And how much money is literally burned up in petrol that otherwise could be injected into the local economy from people having to drive everywhere? One-off housing is a calamity for rural Ireland.

Mickiemcfist

ED E wrote: »

Nobody is setting up an EMEA base anywhere other than Dublin. Its not happening.

You're right yeah.. Nobody:

https://irishtechnews.ie/nginx-announces-new-headquarters-for-emea-in-cork/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/malwarebytes-to-establish-emea-hq-in-cork-1.2144249

We need more of the above sized businesses going to tertiary cities, we won't get a google to do it, but there's more jobs than just the top 10 tech companies. Ideally the aim should be for growing companies who the cities could grow with. You can't rock up and have 1000 jobs filled, but if they set up with 100 & grew consistently at 20/ year, multiply that by 10 medium sized foreign companies and you have stable local jobs.

Re: Your point about Dublin being tiny & Cork/Galway being microscopic. With enough incentives anywhere is "big enough", If you've ever been to Sliema in Malta on business you'll find a large corporation behind every second door. No 5000 person offices, but a lot of headcount none the less.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

You can call it a failure if you like.

Very obvious to me it is, strangely many don't see it that way

[Deleted User]

Wanderer78 wrote: »

It's a bit more complicated than that, failures of macro economic theory play a huge part to

You can call it a failure if you like.

ED E

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Yeah we have sort of lost sight of the issue, my point was that FDI should be incentivised to come to Ireland, anywhere. But further large incentives should be given to set up in a tertiary city with low employment (would obviously need to suit on many levels, infrastructure, universities/IT's etc).
As it stands it's just creating a completely two tiered economy, 5k google staff push up house prices in Dublin, increases spending in already successful Dublin bars, cafes & shops. That could be spread better throughout the country to have other smaller businesses thrive.

I say this as someone who will from this point on always live in Dublin, but I have worked with plenty of Cork & Limerick people who'd love to move back if the right jobs were there.

Nobody is setting up an EMEA base anywhere other than Dublin. Its not happening.

Cork got an Apple contact centre. Thats not a HQ, its not high tech or high income. Fine.

Amazon Engineering and CS is Dublin. Their 2nd(4th, 8th, trade secret) DC is going to the west but a DC is 1000 racks per pair of hands, its not a big labour builder.

People love to think that Galway or Limerick could take a big office but they can't. Dublin is tiny, everywhere else is microscopic on the scale of multinationals.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

Yup. If people aren't willing to pay the little bit extra in local shops and establishments to keep them going then what do they expect?

It's a bit more complicated than that, failures of macro economic theory play a huge part to

[Deleted User]

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

As a city dweller, even I think this post is ridiculous. This is a problem caused by unevenly spread FDI, it's hardly that Dublin workers are working harder. It's that the government are using Dublin as a selling point to get Facebook, Google, Microsoft etc. To base themselves here & they're paying corporation tax as a Dublin based business, you'll find a lot of staff there are from outside Ireland, or not from Dublin.

I really think the Govt should be giving further grants for businesses to start in other cities, Kilkenny, Limerick Waterford etc.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Urbanisation is happening all over the world and has been for a long time. Cities everywhere are growing, often at the expense of rural areas, it is not just an Irish phenomenon. Talk about grants and promoting regional towns is ignoring the reality of the situation, you can't hold back the tide. The same even happens on a smaller scale in rural areas where villages are declining as people use the county town for shopping and socialising.

I am from a rural area, I see plenty of towns and villages dying and it is not because of investment or infrastructure in Dublin, it is because the local people have abandoned their town in favour of their own acre of grass. The local shop, pub and post office didn't close because people in Dublin don't use it, they closed because the so called locals choose to drive 12km to the county town instead of 2km to the village.

The only people who can save rural towns are the locals. Thinking that you can continue to do what has failed all around the world and that the government can force a large multi-national to set up and employ lots of people is fantasy. The small town or village will only survive if people actually live in it, the people living outside the village are killing it.

Yup. If people aren't willing to pay the little bit extra in local shops and establishments to keep them going then what do they expect?

Mickiemcfist

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/google-hits-5000-employee-level-in-dublin-now-one-of-capitals-biggest-employers-31480103.html

Fair enough. I would expect it due to the nature of the Irish operation being the European HQ but I think we are loosing sight of the fact that Google could have located in Waterford for example and choose not to.

Yeah we have sort of lost sight of the issue, my point was that FDI should be incentivised to come to Ireland, anywhere. But further large incentives should be given to set up in a tertiary city with low employment (would obviously need to suit on many levels, infrastructure, universities/IT's etc).
As it stands it's just creating a completely two tiered economy, 5k google staff push up house prices in Dublin, increases spending in already successful Dublin bars, cafes & shops. That could be spread better throughout the country to have other smaller businesses thrive.

I say this as someone who will from this point on always live in Dublin, but I have worked with plenty of Cork & Limerick people who'd love to move back if the right jobs were there.

lawred2

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Mr.H wrote: »

You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

Rural Ireland doesn't mean everything outside of Dublin. There are many urban areas away from Dublin. Stop trying to make this about Dublin versus the rest of the country.

You beat me to it

lawred2

Is everything outside of Dublin classed as rural?

Lot of talk about Cork and Galway in this thread...

Pete_Cavan

Mr.H wrote: »

You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

Rural Ireland doesn't mean everything outside of Dublin. There are many urban areas away from Dublin. Stop trying to make this about Dublin versus the rest of the country.

Pete_Cavan

Urbanisation is happening all over the world and has been for a long time. Cities everywhere are growing, often at the expense of rural areas, it is not just an Irish phenomenon. Talk about grants and promoting regional towns is ignoring the reality of the situation, you can't hold back the tide. The same even happens on a smaller scale in rural areas where villages are declining as people use the county town for shopping and socialising.

I am from a rural area, I see plenty of towns and villages dying and it is not because of investment or infrastructure in Dublin, it is because the local people have abandoned their town in favour of their own acre of grass. The local shop, pub and post office didn't close because people in Dublin don't use it, they closed because the so called locals choose to drive 12km to the county town instead of 2km to the village.

The only people who can save rural towns are the locals. Thinking that you can continue to do what has failed all around the world and that the government can force a large multi-national to set up and employ lots of people is fantasy. The small town or village will only survive if people actually live in it, the people living outside the village are killing it.

LeinsterDub

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

They have the same number of jobs in either office, Google London has higher quality jobs. Why do you think that is?

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/google-hits-5000-employee-level-in-dublin-now-one-of-capitals-biggest-employers-31480103.html

Fair enough. I would expect it due to the nature of the Irish operation being the European HQ but I think we are loosing sight of the fact that Google could have located in Waterford for example and choose not to.

Mickiemcfist

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You can't compare Googles operations in Dublin and the UK. Dublin being the European HQ has a lot of sales and administration jobs which brings down the average but the Dublin operation most certainly has lots of high end jobs

They have the same number of jobs in either office, Google London has higher quality jobs. Why do you think that is?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

LeinsterDub

Mr.H wrote: »

You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

Limerick cork Waterford and galway can attract tech companies. But infrastructure was not being funded because of glamour projects such as Dublin metro.

I'm not sure you noticed but the metro was never built so how it took funding from other projects barring a few million for planning is beyond me

If you want to talk glamour projects looks at the rural bypasses and motorways built with very little demand.

I do however agree we should look at Cork-Limerick as a counter to Dublin and the motorway between the two would certainly help. However people need to stop throwing in half the country with this list. It's Limerick-Cork perhaps Galway. It's not the above plus Kilkenny and Waterford and Cavan and Wexford etc.

Also note when I say Cork-Limerick I'm taking about the urban area and surrounding areas not the middle of West Cork.

Mr.H

hmmm wrote:

Rural Ireland needs to stop with the fantasies of attracting Intel, and start focusing on their strengths..............

.............Stop wasting money on railway infrastructure which will never, ever, attract heavy industry.

You mean like apple going to galway? Uber to Limerick?

What about Amazon, dell and vmware? All big companies who have no problem being outside Dublin.

Limerick cork Waterford and galway can attract tech companies. But infrastructure was not being funded because of glamour projects such as Dublin metro.

If we tried to attract companies nationally it would relieve the strain on Dublin. Instead of trying to get Everyone to move to Dublin there would be more spread of our population. That means less housing, less power, less water and less refuse removal is needed in Dublin. It means rents and house prices in Dublin would also be more realistic. It should not be cheaper to buy a house than rent one. It also means that travel time in Dublin gets better as you don't have the whole country living there.

While yes we need to develop Dublin. We can't ignore the needs of the other cities. We can't all just live in Dublin

LeinsterDub

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

2. Re the untrained staff point. Most of the FDI jobs we're getting are for very basically skilled labour. Fund accountants, Sales, SSC's, these aren't technical roles, they're entry level with maybe one skilled/experienced VP per 20.
We're not getting the top jobs here no matter what the announcements might say. Googles Irish staff earn on average 40% of the average London Googler, despite the London office "supporting the Dublin office". It's not due to cost of living as from experience, you can live more affordably in London than Dublin (you can also live way more ostentatiously for multiples more in London if you so wish) it's that the good jobs don't come to Ireland.

You can't compare Googles operations in Dublin and the UK. Dublin being the European HQ has a lot of sales and administration jobs which brings down the average but the Dublin operation most certainly has lots of high end jobs

Mickiemcfist

hmmm wrote: »

I'm not from Dublin, but it is the only "world class" city we have, and it is right we promote it. The multinationals for the most part want to be where the infrastructure is - this isn't just physical transport infrastructure, but access to services like high-end accountants & solicitors, and access to a large pool of labour in sometimes very specialised roles.

They don't want to be the biggest employer in Mullingar or Ballina, that was fine back in the days when we were attracting manufacturers who wanted untrained staff or were looking for apprentices.

1. As cities go, while I love it, Dublin is far from world class on any level. Except maybe top 5 cost of living.

2. Re the untrained staff point. Most of the FDI jobs we're getting are for very basically skilled labour. Fund accountants, Sales, SSC's, these aren't technical roles, they're entry level with maybe one skilled/experienced VP per 20.
We're not getting the top jobs here no matter what the announcements might say. Googles Irish staff earn on average 40% of the average London Googler, despite the London office "supporting the Dublin office". It's not due to cost of living as from experience, you can live more affordably in London than Dublin (you can also live way more ostentatiously for multiples more in London if you so wish) it's that the good jobs don't come to Ireland.

Mr.H

sdanseo wrote:

Within the confines of the Planning Acts, which unfortunately are not restrictive enough.

I don't agree with that TBH. I think planning rules should be looked at but if I have land in the middle of longford and there is nothing for miles. I should be allowed to build a 17 storey house if I really want and pay for myself. But planning restrictions don't allow that.

hmmm

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Except state street, as I mentioned, and others I didn't. They're not promoted well enough, as was my original point. I've in a previous role abroad been contacted by the IDA looking for FDI & it was Dublin they were pitching.

I'm not from Dublin, but it is the only "world class" city we have, and it is right we promote it. The multinationals for the most part want to be where the infrastructure is - this isn't just physical transport infrastructure, but access to services like high-end accountants & solicitors, and access to a large pool of labour in sometimes very specialised roles.

They don't want to be the biggest employer in Mullingar or Ballina, that was fine back in the days when we were attracting manufacturers who wanted untrained staff or were looking for apprentices.

Rural Ireland needs to stop with the fantasies of attracting Intel, and start focusing on their strengths. Build the Greenways and hiking paths and get tourists visiting. Build facilities like shared services centres where people who are mobile can choose to work in a rural location providing services into the multinationals. Stop wasting money on railway infrastructure which will never, ever, attract heavy industry.

lawred2

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ironically rural Ireland is being killed by the one off housing / road frontage brigade. The same people who are complaining about this plan.

100%

oversized ugly buildings with no services miles from the nearest town/village centre

John_Rambo

368100 wrote: »

Is that data based on where the taxpayer lives or where the business they work for is based?

Excellent point. One off housing is killing the towns and villages of rural Ireland. All the jobs are going to Dublin. If people outside Dublin insist on a Dublincentric Ireland, a Dublincentric Ireland will prevail.

Shunning dying cities, towns and villages to build one off houses dotted around the countryside will ensure the continual death of what once were vibrant, successful and populated towns, cities and villages.

Town butchers, drapers, greengrocers, craft shops, bakers, restaurants, post offices, bars, garages, garda stations, surgeries, veterinarians etc... all shutting up shop surrounded by derelict and neglected houses is the direct result of bad planning where the car obsessed one off housing occupants drive to out of town to non Irish owned retailers to shop leaving the towns and villages unattractive to any brexit company trying to relocate to Ireland.

Up to 10 billion a year spills out of Dublin to subsidise the result of this bad planning and neglect of indigenous business that once prospered in dying rural towns, villages and cities that once were and should now be the backbone of rural Ireland.

It's a vicious circle. That 10 billion a year could be used to improve the city with much needed high rise development, underground, metro and improved cycle and public transport.

Mickiemcfist

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And yet the fact remains that they aren't in the cities/towns you named. Go figure

Except state street, as I mentioned, and others I didn't. They're not promoted well enough, as was my original point. I've in a previous role abroad been contacted by the IDA looking for FDI & it was Dublin they were pitching.

tastyt

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Ironically rural Ireland is being killed by the one off housing / road frontage brigade. The same people who are complaining about this plan.

Just on this, I totally agree, its no wonder rural towns and villages are soulless with half the people living a mile or two outside and shopping in retail parks or even bigger towns nearby.

Im just wondering though, does the uk have the same issues?? It seems any time ive been there that the rural towns and villages have much more of a buzz and community feel to them, is it a planning permission issue?