Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

Hugh Jampton

snotboogie wrote: »

Next up should be the North Ring

Next up should be the DART underground

Hugh Jampton

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Your TLDR is not an accurate reflection of your post. Aside from your disclaimer about loving Dublin the majority of it was a bog standard, Dubs get it all and sure it is no New York.

You are flatly wrong about the infrastructure part, it is Dublin not the countryside which is compartively underserved by its infrastructure. We have an M50 that is at breaking point, a very limited public transport system, parts of the city can't even get adequate broadband. This is inspite of being the economic powerhouse of the country.

There are schemes to help encourage the development of businesses outside of the Dublin area. The problem is that most people, and most businesses, want to live in a major urban area (as they do all across the world). You have a critical mass of businesses, facilities and population, it makes sense for businesses to be in or close to that centre. You hardly imagine that businesses are choosing to locate in Dublin and its environs because they have some grudge against the countryside.

Dublin badly needs a counterweight, I think everyone can agree on that. The issue is to achieve that counterweight we need other major urban areas. Not 20+ county towns spread around the country with their town centres denuded of anything resembling a functioning core because everyone wants a front and back garden they can neglect and yet expects all the same services as those that chose to live in town centres and city centres. You literally cannot have it both ways, the last 70 years of development in this county have made that abundantly clear.

That counterweight is Galway, but it is being crucified by car-centric planning. You couldn’t pour enough tarmac into it to satisfy all the Little Americans who want to prove how sprawling the bejayzus out of it and its hinterland will work. Never mind the fit of the vapours many of the pro Sprawl enthusiasts get when any rail-based solution is suggested.

Idbatterim

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

That counterweight is Galway, but it is being crucified by car-centric planning. You couldn’t pour enough tarmac into it to satisfy all the Little Americans who want to prove how sprawling the bejayzus out of it and its hinterland will work. Never mind the fit of the vapours many of the pro Sprawl enthusiasts get when any rail-based solution is suggested.

I was in galway the other day, the place is like a quaint village! galway a counterweight do Dublin, LOL! down in the irish glass bottle site, they are finalising plans for building a town for 30,000 residents, in cherrywood where work has commenced, the same figure, there is also clonburris SDZ which is being moved forward which will have a population of 20k, totalling 80k residents, the population of galway city. there will never be a comparison in terms of national importance, its like comparing manchester to london, but if there is to be a counterweight, it needs to be cork. The only other town or "city" of any size in the country...

Spanish Eyes

Imagine a scenario where a premium was put on rural LPT to provide broadband, roads, trains, lighting etc. Can you imagine the uproar!

As it is, Dublin and other big rural centres are subsidising low LPT areas anyway.

My in laws live in farming country in the NW. It is grim. The scenery is lovely but that never buttered any parsnips, and the weather is dire too just to add to the delights.

The local little town is dead on its feet as are most villages around the place. Locals prefer to go to Sligo now or Enniskillen bypassing their local providers. There is little work apart from farming really.

The amount of obscene one off housing is unreal. The lovely countryside is littered with it. But no one in the country would consider living in a village or a town, they would then be a "Townie" the lowest form of life. That has to change.

Rural housing should really be for those engaged in farming, yep the farmhouse. There are few farm labourers required anymore either so their housing needs are not necessary out in the middle of a field.

I look out my in laws windows (yes they have a hacienda) and the opposite hills are just dotted with all these houses.

I don't know what the solution is. But some of the ribbon and one off development is just awful.

Just looking at it from a city person's perspective who has experience of rural living. OH will never go back, and I would be in divorce proceedings if it was ever mooted!

Towns and villages are for people. Not for empty and decrepit shops and services.

Ben D Bus

Tell me how wrote: »

TLDR
People travel in to or try to live in Dublin because that is where work is.
Move the work out of Dublin will mean those workers will not have to travel in to or live in the area.
This will alleviate housing crisis within the city and revitalise the area where the business and workers are located outside of the city.
Rinse and repeat.

In other words solve Dublin's infrastructural issues by dismantling Dublin? No thanks!

Look , people talk about moving stuff out of Dublin to help it as though Dublin is crippled by its size. Dublin is a small city by any measure. It's issues are due to a lack of investment, not overdevelopment.

Mickiemcfist

cgcsb wrote: »

That's where you're wrong. The government is required to provide services where it would be an efficient use of resources to do so. AS for rural tax refund. Greater Dublin and the South West are the only regions that contribute more taxes than they get in spending so if anything it would be higher rural taxes for the services you have already.



That's grand, pay for it so.

Up until not too long ago Ireland was a bigger recipient of EU subsidies than a contributor.

Under your logic that's our own fault and we should have all moved to Germany.

Mr. teddywinkles

draiochtanois wrote: »

You do know that rural dwellers pay less tax?

And that city taxpayers subsidise rural Ireland?

Must be why most of the roads down the country are in ****e then. BTW is there a regional income tax change I didn't hear about. Pay less tax?

Middle Man

368100 wrote: »

Well its my land, bought and paid for by me so I'm perfectly entitled to utilise it or not as I want.

It's not your land - it belongs to Mother Earth... In any case, you need planning permission to build anything substantial on it and there are many regulations you must follow in the course of residency - waste water treatment, flora, access to a public right of way, boundary treatments etc... So, is it really your land?

sdanseo

Tell me how wrote: »

I disagree with you. But that's normal. People often seem to have very binary views on things these days.

Dublin being the economic powerhouse of the company is solely because of the businesses located there.

My suggestions are a counterpoint to that while availing of housing, office and industrial infrastructure which is already in place is no indication that everyone wants a front and back garden (I don't know here you got that from).

Your suggestion that we need a counterweight to Dublin.
Where do you suggest that be?
Should everyone then move to within (painful) commute of either of these areas?
What then with the rest of the country?

Cork is the perfect city in which to invest as a regional "counterweight" city.

It has a large enough existing population to be a proper city outright. It's in a county which is fiercely of its own identity as much as it is Irish and already home to some big hitters not least Apple.

Just one example, the Czechs invested heavily in infrastructure in their second city of Brno, population around 400,000, which is 200km from Prague. It has a functional orbital ring road, a well developed and modern tram system, and since my job is logistics I can vouch most of all that as a result it is home to some serious industry while still maintaining its identity. This in a country with a GDP less than a THIRD of ours per capita.

Cork has none of that and no hope of developing in the same way unless it gets investment. The same goes for Galway, Limerick, Waterford - the latter two of which have attempted ring roads which go part of the way round and then abruptly terminate with either a housing estate in the case of Limerick or a Hospital in Waterford.

We simply cannot. properly. do. planning. in this country.

Spanish Eyes

I remember the former Sec General of the Department of Finance John Moran saying that a hub outside Dublin was very necessary. He mentioned Limerick with Shannon airport close by. I think he is from Limerick but that is not relevant to his vision. It could be Cork either I suppose.

He resigned from Finance. He was too good and visionary for them. And Sir Humphrey probably made his incumbency hell too for his forward vision.

We have to deal with inertia very soon. I don't know who is going to do this. Do you?

Ben D Bus

I feel like rambling so here's my view on why rural Ireland - and rural everywhere - is dying and will continue to die no matter what sort of framework is put in place to fight it.

Minority interests. Everybody has them but by definition we all have different ones.

No town or village can cater for a wide range of minority interests. Only centres of large population can.

So while a small town can possibly provide what everyone wants - jobs, a school, a couple of sports clubs etc. they can't cater for all the less common desires of the population.

So as someone mentioned GAA a few times, here's my extreme sample scenario. You want to field the best GAA team you can. You proudly announce you can offer plentiful employment and great GAA facilities in your town. But your goalkeeper wants a job, GAA and arthouse cinema so he moves to a town with a dedicated arthouse cinema. The full backs want jobs, GAA and theater so they move to a city with theatres. The midfielders want jobs, GAA and fine dining. The forwards want jobs, GAA and live jazz gigs so they'll follow the rest of the team to the city.

Opening a cinema in the town won't save the team. Nor will a nice new restaurant, or a jazz club or a theatre. You need to provide them all.

It's not just about attracting industry, it's about providing for all the disparate requirements of the workforce.

Even in Dublin, many leave for the brighter lights of bigger cities as we can't compete with the level of provision for wide ranging interests.

I accept that many people want to lead uncomplicated lives that centre around work, sport and family (sorry if that sounds patronising the way it's worded but you know what I mean!) but younger people especially have greater expectations and greater awareness of the possibilities so they will always be drawn to locations that offer them more. Not everyone, maybe not even a majority, but enough to lead to a continuous decline in rural populations.

No amount of politicking will ever change this.

lawred2

sdanseo wrote: »

Cork is the perfect city in which to invest as a regional "counterweight" city.

It has a large enough existing population to be a proper city outright. It's in a county which is fiercely of its own identity as much as it is Irish and already home to some big hitters not least Apple.

Just one example, the Czechs invested heavily in infrastructure in their second city of Brno, population around 400,000, which is 200km from Prague. It has a functional orbital ring road, a well developed and modern tram system, and since my job is logistics I can vouch most of all that as a result it is home to some serious industry while still maintaining its identity. This in a country with a GDP less than a THIRD of ours per capita.

Cork has none of that and no hope of developing in the same way unless it gets investment. The same goes for Galway, Limerick, Waterford - the latter two of which have attempted ring roads which go part of the way round and then abruptly terminate with either a housing estate in the case of Limerick or a Hospital in Waterford.

We simply cannot. properly. do. planning. in this country.

Our representative parochial political structures are to blame..

Hotblack Desiato

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I remember the former Sec General of the Department of Finance John Moran saying that a hub outside Dublin was very necessary. He mentioned Limerick with Shannon airport close by. I think he is from Limerick but that is not relevant to his vision.

Yes I'm sure it was a complete coincidence!

If that sort of county jersey mentality is what's supposed to save us, then...

Hotblack Desiato

Ben D Bus wrote: »

So while a small town can possibly provide what everyone wants - jobs, a school, a couple of sports clubs etc. they can't cater for all the less common desires of the population.

You can get a traditional single-sex catholic education for your kids anywhere. Thing is, a substantial and quickly growing proportion of parents no longer want that. If all schools provided an inclusive education then it wouldn't matter much where you chose to live. As it is, outside the cities (and, often, even within them) your options are limited to non-existent.

This is an even bigger issue if you are hoping to attract Brexit jobs. 'Yes you can come here and you'll probably get school places in the end, but not being Catholic they'll be at the bottom of every admission list in the area.'

hmmm

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Must be why most of the roads down the country are in ****e then.

Rural roads are in ****e because:
1. There are too many of them
2. There are only a handful of people using most of them
3. The limited money we have for road repairs goes to the busier and more important roads

In most parts of the world, they don't have tarmac'd roads going up every boreen, and even in some very wealthy countries a lot of side roads are dirt/gravel.

Mr. teddywinkles

hmmm wrote: »

Rural roads are in ****e because:
1. There are too many of them
2. There are only a handful of people using most of them
3. The limited money we have for road repairs goes to the busier and more important roads

In most parts of the world, they don't have tarmac'd roads going up every boreen, and even in some very wealthy countries a lot of side roads are dirt/gravel.

Who said boreens. Driving down the quays in cork city the other day was like going cross country. People on here moaning about he capital being under funded. If it's bad up there what do you think the rest of the country looks like.

LeinsterDub

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Who said boreens. Driving down the quays in cork city the other day was like going cross country. People on here moaning about he capital being under funded. If it's bad up there what do you think the rest of the country looks like.

Not the capital urban areas

suicide_circus

Cork is our only option for a counterweight to dublin. The city centre feels like a city, far more so than galway. Having a counterweight city is the only way to take some of the focus and pressure off dublin.

As for boosting county towns and rural Ireland in general, sorry that ship has sailed.

Reati

hmmm wrote: »

Rural roads are in ****e because:
1. There are too many of them
2. There are only a handful of people using most of them
3. The limited money we have for road repairs goes to the busier and more important roads

In most parts of the world, they don't have tarmac'd roads going up every boreen, and even in some very wealthy countries a lot of side roads are dirt/gravel.

Nonsense. For example, Wicklow was given €3.7 million (of €136 million) for roads in 2018. That includes roads like the N11, M11 around Bray which carry an average daily traffic of 69,000 into Dublin. There has been countless reports on improvements required to these roads yet it's never invested in. It's getting 100K this year for essential maintenance only. It must be that it too is rural and not enough people using?

marno21

Reati wrote: »

Nonsense. For example, Wicklow was given €3.7 million (of €136 million) for roads in 2018. That includes roads like the N11, M11 around Bray which carry an average daily traffic of 69,000 into Dublin. There has been countless reports on improvements required to these roads yet it's never invested in. It's getting 100K this year for essential maintenance only. It must be that it too is rural and not enough people using?

That's for national roads, the other poster was on about te rural boreens under the jurisdiction of the council

Wicklows national roads are the N11 and N81. The N11 south of Ashford is now totally motorway. TII are moving forward on a major scheme to upgrade the N11 between Bray and Ashford but it's unfunded. Unfunded in the same way Cork's massive list of road upgrades are unfunded

cgcsb

Harry Palmr wrote: »

So what? You're trying to compare a chunk of local Dublin railway with a part of a regional Euro-route which connects three three major ports and two of the states cities. I'm not aware of any proposal that the nations imported fruit, veg, clothing, beds etc travel on the Dublin Metro.



Everyone who mattered was agreed about the N25 NR bypass, no one could agree on anything about the N20 it seems.

Trucks can drive on existing roads, only slightly slower, the issue is we're spending far larger sums on inter-rural mega motorways and bridge than we are on high usage urban rail. That is what is so backwards. The priority projects should be those that deliver maximum benefit. the New Ross bypass is low priority, by any sane standard, in country where the capital and second largest City don't have a functional public transport set up due to low/no funding.

snotboogie

suicide_circus wrote: »

Cork is our only option for a counterweight to dublin. The city centre feels like a city, far more so than galway. Having a counterweight city is the only way to take some of the focus and pressure off dublin.

As for boosting county towns and rural Ireland in general, sorry that ship has sailed.

More so than what the city center feels like, Greater Cork (Cork City, Ringaskiddy, Little Island and those who commute to these areas) has double the population of Limerick/Shannon. Cork has over double the total number of people in employment of all of Limerick and Clare combined. For Limerick/Shannon to catch up to Cork you would need to add about 75k jobs and 175k people to the region.

cgcsb

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was in galway the other day, the place is like a quaint village! galway a counterweight do Dublin, LOL! down in the irish glass bottle site, they are finalising plans for building a town for 30,000 residents, in cherrywood where work has commenced, the same figure, there is also clonburris SDZ which is being moved forward which will have a population of 20k, totalling 80k residents, the population of galway city. there will never be a comparison in terms of national importance, its like comparing manchester to london, but if there is to be a counterweight, it needs to be cork. The only other town or "city" of any size in the country...

I would envisage a Cork-Limerick Axis that would be linked by very fast rail bus and motorway connections with Limerick and Cork City Centres vastly improved by multiple regeneration schemes, public transport and Cycling schemes and a redistribution of their populations much closer to the City Centres. The Cork-Limerick axis would take up FDI from cost-conscious industries, or small-medium sized corporations. The googles and facebooks of this world couldn't give a flying fook about the TINY% difference in Dublin and Cork office rents.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Imagine a scenario where a premium was put on rural LPT to provide broadband, roads, trains, lighting etc. Can you imagine the uproar!

As it is, Dublin and other big rural centres are subsidising low LPT areas anyway.

My in laws live in farming country in the NW. It is grim. The scenery is lovely but that never buttered any parsnips, and the weather is dire too just to add to the delights.

The local little town is dead on its feet as are most villages around the place. Locals prefer to go to Sligo now or Enniskillen bypassing their local providers. There is little work apart from farming really.

The amount of obscene one off housing is unreal. The lovely countryside is littered with it. But no one in the country would consider living in a village or a town, they would then be a "Townie" the lowest form of life. That has to change.

Rural housing should really be for those engaged in farming, yep the farmhouse. There are few farm labourers required anymore either so their housing needs are not necessary out in the middle of a field.

I look out my in laws windows (yes they have a hacienda) and the opposite hills are just dotted with all these houses.

I don't know what the solution is. But some of the ribbon and one off development is just awful.

Just looking at it from a city person's perspective who has experience of rural living. OH will never go back, and I would be in divorce proceedings if it was ever mooted!

Towns and villages are for people. Not for empty and decrepit shops and services.

The solution is natural economics and fairer politics. Keep Dublin LPT in Dublin, stop all these 'rural broadband', 'rural renewal' schemes. Say no to calls for a vast CCTV network covering every boreen in the state. Say no public money maintaining roads that serve only one family. Ban one off homes for those not involved in farming/forestry etc.

Tax septic tanks to fund the inspection of same and boom you have at least some of the real cost of ruralisation being realized and the problem will fix it's self. As it is despite all the subsidies and schemes rural areas are still depopulating en mass, natural economic forces will take over, the subsidies and schemes only delay the process.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

If the government just wants us all to pack in rural life and move to Dublin, then something has to be done to make urban living more attractive to those of us who grew up in rural areas. I'm being genuine about this.

I grew up in the country where we had a bungalow on a half acre, loads of room to play football without chance of smashing a car window, our parents didn't have to worry about where we were and who was around and there was no chance of the skangers in the house across the street having a house party at 3am on a school night. In fact, if your next door neighbours were having a blazing argument, you wouldn't hear them anyway. Why would I want to buy a house for €340k where I can hear my neighbour taking a piss? Or where the council can stick someone in next door who gets their house for a fraction of my mortgage because the person decided having kids was a good choice of career? Good luck to that.

Sure, there are downsides (crap internet, the shop is 3 miles away, a million quid for a taxi home), but I'd be willing to live with them. I don't buy the argument that we should have a university hospital in every town or that my house should have broadband with speeds rivaling Seoul. There are up sides and downsides to living anywhere.

I should qualify the above by mentioning that I'm renting in a housing estate and have lived in various places, all urban, for the past 15 years.

cgcsb

Ben D Bus wrote: »

In other words solve Dublin's infrastructural issues by dismantling Dublin? No thanks!

Look , people talk about moving stuff out of Dublin to help it as though Dublin is crippled by its size. Dublin is a small city by any measure. It's issues are due to a lack of investment, not overdevelopment.

You'd think Dublin was Singapore, just about managing to accommodate it's massive super dense population. Dublin could comfortable fit the Island of Ireland's population inside the M50 with plenty of room for parks and open public spaces, while maintaining all of it's historic buildings.

Mickiemcfist

cgcsb wrote: »

You'd think Dublin was Singapore, just about managing to accommodate it's massive super dense population. Dublin could comfortable fit the Island of Ireland's population inside the M50 with plenty of room for parks and open public spaces, while maintaining all of it's historic buildings.

Except it would take absolutely vast infrastructural & transport upgrades, and house prices hitting a threshold where high rise makes sense, which it wouldn't as we could always go outside the M50.

cgcsb

Mickiemcfist wrote: »

Up until not too long ago Ireland was a bigger recipient of EU subsidies than a contributor.

Under your logic that's our own fault and we should have all moved to Germany.

Err no that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that the GDR and South West keep the lights on in the rest of the country, and in most areas that comes at a massive and disproportionate expense. I'm not saying everyone should move to the GDR or the South West. I'm saying that everyone who's not involved in rural activities should be encouraged to home themselves in their nearest urban area be it a town or a village.

cgcsb

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Who said boreens. Driving down the quays in cork city the other day was like going cross country. People on here moaning about he capital being under funded. If it's bad up there what do you think the rest of the country looks like.

Exactly we're spreading the money around so every TD in every boreen can get credit.

cgcsb

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

If the government just wants us all to pack in rural life and move to Dublin, then something has to be done to make urban living more attractive to those of us who grew up in rural areas. I'm being genuine about this.

Well not exactly, more that we should gradually urbanise, not all move to Dublin, although the GDR will eventually house half the population.

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater wrote: »

I grew up in the country where we had a bungalow on a half acre, loads of room to play football without chance of smashing a car window, our parents didn't have to worry about where we were and who was around and there was no chance of the skangers in the house across the street having a house party at 3am on a school night. In fact, if your next door neighbours were having a blazing argument, you wouldn't hear them anyway. Why would I want to buy a house for €340k where I can hear my neighbour taking a piss? Or where the council can stick someone in next door who gets their house for a fraction of my mortgage because the person decided having kids was a good choice of career? Good luck to that.

Easy. You have a variety of sports facilities offering a variety of sports only a short stroll away where you can meet with and integrate with lots of other children from lots of other ethnic, religious and socio-economic backgrounds. This is great for children's social skills. When I went to college I done a course almost entirely populated by 18 year old country lads who genuinely could not relate to someone without their mutual interest in GAA, ham, mass, anti-traveler and anti-gay bigotry. They were socially and emotionally incontinent, probably because they only ever played with their blood relatives if at all as kids.

If your neighbors have a party and are disrespectful you talk to them about how it bothers you, this requires social interaction with people you may not know, a daunting experience for many a rural dweller I know. As for your neighbors who may be unemployed(unemployment is more commonplace in rural areas anyway), perhaps they are human beings who you can interact with and not be afraid of.