Croatian man shot dead whilst on a South Africa Lion trophy hunt

diomed · 31-01-2018 02:29PM

Discodog wrote: »

And I wonder how much of that income goes into the hands of the right people.

Who are the right people? The government?
When I was in Africa forty years ago much of the poaching was financed (my opinion) by businessmen and politicians.
One weekend evidence (killed animals) was taken to the main police station in the capital city.
The suspect was a politician.
On Monday the evidence had disappeared.

Discodog wrote: »

The old argument that rolled out over & over again. If you haven't been to a game park you have no right to have an opinion.

"old argument" "rolled out". You need to try harder to discredit.
I think it helps if you have seen animal wire snares and helped dismantle them (large animal snares), have seen European hunters with guns and guides on a hunt, have seen people with a pickup truck driving after a herd of antelope chasing them to exhaustion, then clubbing them to death.
Your morals here in Europe are no help to those animals.
It helps if you have spoken to people who run a safari business, the photography safari business, and have lived there all their lives.
They would prefer your Utopian ideal of happy animals living their lives in peace.

Discodog wrote: »

Are you really saying that there is no wildlife outside of the parks ?

Very little.
Again you are displaying a lack of knowledge.
Wildlife needs water, rivers are the water source, much of Africa has a six months wet season, and a six months dry season.
If an animal is not near a river it dies of dehydration.
Game parks are almost all beside rivers, or have rivers running through them.
Almost all "wildlife" animals outside game parks have left to raid farms just outside the park, mostly at night, and return to the park (please correct me if you know better).

Hunting is allowed outside game park under licence, licence fee payable in advance, different charges for different animals.
These countries are poor and the money for game wardens must come from somewhere.
Why not tax the local population? They are unwaged.

Discodog wrote: »

Any "sport" that involves animal abuse is wrong.

The bigger wrong here is your idea of no organised hunting will allow all African wildlife to be eliminated.
Being moral and on the moral high ground is ok if your are white and far away, but it doesn't help.

I am looking forward to the annuual Grand National greenies asking for horseracing to be banned, which of course will do away with the need for racehorses, and the end of the breed.

Your solution is much the same.

Odyssey 2005 · 31-01-2018 02:31PM

The lions will sleep tonight.

Stigura · 31-01-2018 06:37PM

Guess I'm the only person here then who's more interested wtf happened, and how this guy got shot ~ rather than virtue signaling for either side.

Discodog · 31-01-2018 06:53PM

Stigura wrote: »

Guess I'm the only person here then who's more interested wtf happened, and how this guy got shot ~ rather than virtue signaling for either side.

I doubt that you will hear if he was shot by someone deliberately. It's not good for business for customers to be shot.

Discodog · 31-01-2018 07:06PM

diomed wrote: »

Who are the right people? The government?
When I was in Africa forty years ago much of the poaching was financed (my opinion) by businessmen and politicians.
One weekend evidence (killed animals) was taken to the main police station in the capital city.
The suspect was a politician.
On Monday the evidence had disappeared.

"old argument" "rolled out". You need to try harder to discredit.
I think it helps if you have seen animal wire snares and helped dismantle them (large animal snares), have seen European hunters with guns and guides on a hunt, have seen people with a pickup truck driving after a herd of antelope chasing them to exhaustion, then clubbing them to death.
Your morals here in Europe are no help to those animals.
It helps if you have spoken to people who run a safari business, the photography safari business, and have lived there all their lives.
They would prefer your Utopian ideal of happy animals living their lives in peace.

Very little.
Again you are displaying a lack of knowledge.
Wildlife needs water, rivers are the water source, much of Africa has a six months wet season, and a six months dry season.
If an animal is not near a river it dies of dehydration.
Game parks are almost all beside rivers, or have rivers running through them.
Almost all "wildlife" animals outside game parks have left to raid farms just outside the park, mostly at night, and return to the park (please correct me if you know better).

Hunting is allowed outside game park under licence, licence fee payable in advance, different charges for different animals.
These countries are poor and the money for game wardens must come from somewhere.
Why not tax the local population? They are unwaged.

The bigger wrong here is your idea of no organised hunting will allow all African wildlife to be eliminated.
Being moral and on the moral high ground is ok if your are white and far away, but it doesn't help.

I am looking forward to the annuual Grand National greenies asking for horseracing to be banned, which of course will do away with the need for racehorses, and the end of the breed.

Your solution is much the same.

I implied that the money from paid hunting may well be going to corrupt politicians rather than the reserves. Many of these countries have big armies that could be utilised to stop poaching & it would be good training too.

I don't need to discredit. The people that object to horse racing have every right to object. They don't have to be part of the problem to see that animals are abused. They know that it's a multi million euro business backed by the government.

How about a tiny 10% betting tax to look after all the unwanted horses ?

I have no idea what you mean by the quote in bold. You clearly think that the only wildlife in African are game animals.

I just find it so unacceptable that only the "experts" are entitled to an opinion. It's not just Africa's wildlife, it belongs to the World.

Stigura · 31-01-2018 07:10PM

Mm. Thing is, DD, he'll have been inside a gated enclosure. Only people in there with him would have been the guides and his own mates. Not like it was a war zone, or even the open plain.

So, I'd imagine, if it wasn't a stray round from outside the enclosure? Have to have been one of the above. And, I'd imagine, a negligent discharge.

But; Did I read, somewhere, that they've opened a murder inquiry? I mean, jesus! That'd really spice things up, wouldn't it?! :eek:

Sadly, it'll probably all blow over and be forgotten about now, long before any sort of truth of the matter emerges.

Discodog · 31-01-2018 07:12PM

Stigura wrote: »

Mm. Thing is, DD, he'll have been inside a gated enclosure. Only people in there with him would have been the guides and his own mates. Not like it was a war zone, or even the open plain.

So, I'd imagine, if it wasn't a stray round from outside the enclosure? Have to have been one of the above. And, I'd imagine, a negligent discharge.
But; Did I read, somewhere, that they've opened a murder inquiry? I mean, jesus! That'd really spice things up, wouldn't it?! :eek:

Sadly, it'll probably all blow over and be forgotten about now, long before any sort of truth of the matter emerges.

I am sure there are people out there who would pay to be hunted :pac:

Discodog · 31-01-2018 07:14PM

Stigura wrote: »

Mm. Thing is, DD, he'll have been inside a gated enclosure. Only people in there with him would have been the guides and his own mates. Not like it was a war zone, or even the open plain.

So, I'd imagine, if it wasn't a stray round from outside the enclosure? Have to have been one of the above. And, I'd imagine, a negligent discharge.
But; Did I read, somewhere, that they've opened a murder inquiry? I mean, jesus! That'd really spice things up, wouldn't it?! :eek:

Sadly, it'll probably all blow over and be forgotten about now, long before any sort of truth of the matter emerges.

I am sure that some people would pay to be hunted :pac:

diomed · 01-02-2018 05:36PM

Discodog wrote: »

I implied that the money from paid hunting may well be going to corrupt politicians rather than the reserves. Many of these countries have big armies that could be utilised to stop poaching & it would be good training too.

Again you are showing a lack of familiarity with the area and the people.
These countries have park rangers to patrol the game parks.
To house an army or part of it you need accommodation.
Game parks are in remote areas.

I used Google maps to find the distance between the nearest town and the nearest part of the game park that is most familiar to me. It is 115 kms.
There is no accommodation in the game park or anywhere nearby where you could house your army.
And the game park is about 10,000 sq kms with no roads.

Your proposal to bring in an army, men with weapons, to an area that is remote, where it is difficult to resupply them with food, and you think the army will not shoot the game to feed themselves?
With long distance to the capital there is a very real possibility of lack of food supply to your troops, or delayed supply, or lack of budget.

My experience of the army in Africa is of people who have primary cert education at most, who have no interest in fine ideas about "wildlife owned by the world" (your idea).

My memory of the local army was they got paid at the end of the month, went drinking government subsidised beer at six pence a pint, and of seeing a large army truck overturned in a ditch after an army night out.

Discodog wrote: »

I don't need to discredit. The people that object to horse racing have every right to object. They don't have to be part of the problem to see that animals are abused. They know that it's a multi million euro business backed by the government.

Again you don't know much about the subject.
I bought a horse in December.
It is financed by me.
I paid for it.
I pay the keep costs.
It is housed in a comfortable stable that is cleaned out every day.
The horse is well fed and has veterinary care.
The horse wears a warm weatherproof rug when out in the open.

You say "animals are abused".
Do you means "some animals are abused" or are you saying "all animals are abused"?
There are inconsiderate people who do not care for their animals.
If a few animals are abused that does not mean you can propose your solution for all animals.

Please realise that thoroughbred horses do not exist in the wild,
It is a man-made breed.
It has no function outside horseracing.
Preventing horseracing eliminates the reason for thoroughbreds.
And that ends thoroughbreds.
No one will pay for a horse that has no use.
They will be culled (killed).
Think it through.

Discodog wrote: »

How about a tiny 10% betting tax to look after all the unwanted horses ?

No thanks.
This is proposing to tax other people (not you) and you will not pay anything.
10% betting tax is not tiny.
The bookmaker margin on horse betting is about 17%.
In plain terms betters on horses lose 17%.
If they have to pay another 10% they will lose 27%.
They will cease to bet, horse racing will decline, and horses WILL be culled.
Culled means killed.
Again, please think through your solutions.

Discodog wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean by the quote in bold.

I assume it is this that you put into bold.
The bigger wrong here is your idea of no organised hunting will allow all African wildlife to be eliminated.
Organised hunting brings money.
Money pays for rangers.
There is an incentive to keep animals if there are hunters willing to pay to hunt.
Take away the money and you take away the rangers.
Take away the rangers and there will be no curb on poaching.
Every edible animal will be eliminated.

Discodog wrote: »

I just find it so unacceptable that only the "experts" are entitled to an opinion. It's not just Africa's wildlife, it belongs to the World.

Actually the wildlife does not belong to anyone.
I paid for a horse but I consider it does not belong to me.
I have a duty to look after it.

You think that people who are not experts are entitled to an opinion. Fine.
Just realise it is an uninformed opinion, and there are probably better opinions.

muppetshow1451 · 03-02-2018 03:51AM

Chrongen wrote: »

Let me guess, you're trying to blame muslims for all the crimes committed by Balkan gangsters.

Let me guess,you are trying to make me a nazi again.
What i ment to say is that its like 100 other nationalities that are criminals too.
Sorry to disspoint you and your fellow hyenas.

decky1 · 06-02-2018 01:13AM

NO sympathy here for him, can't understand this Big Game hunting , do these guys think their hard men cos they shot a lion or an Elephant what skill does it take to track an Elephant +with the rifles these guys have now they could be half a mile away, Ban this evil big game hunting,

BorneTobyWilde · 06-02-2018 01:50AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmccP620LZQ

weldoninhio · 06-02-2018 10:39AM

decky1 wrote: »

NO sympathy here for him, can't understand this Big Game hunting , do these guys think their hard men cos they shot a lion or an Elephant what skill does it take to track an Elephant +with the rifles these guys have now they could be half a mile away, Ban this evil big game hunting,

So you don't understand it, but you want it banned. :rolleyes:

Shenshen · 06-02-2018 10:49AM

While I do believe that you have to be a special kind of prick to go out of your way and spend a considerable amount of money to go and kill an animal, I also wonder how we would feel if big predators still roamed our own countryside here, threatening people and lifestock? If may be a bit too easy to just not want humans to kill lions.

decky1 · 06-02-2018 04:35PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

So you don't understand it, but you want it banned. :rolleyes:

I can understand that people want to shoot big game , but why would anyone want to shoot these lovely animals? what pleasure is to be got putting a high powered rifle with a scope up to your eye and shooting something a half mile away, if these brave men want to hunt do as the natives did track down the animal and meet it face to face with a spear.:mad:

weldoninhio · 06-02-2018 05:20PM

decky1 wrote: »

I can understand that people want to shoot big game , but why would anyone want to shoot these lovely animals? what pleasure is to be got putting a high powered rifle with a scope up to your eye and shooting something a half mile away, if these brave men want to hunt do as the natives did track down the animal and meet it face to face with a spear.:mad:

1. They pay big money to go on these hunts.
2. Shooting anything from distance is a skill.
3. The big money they pay generally pays for the conservation efforts in the area.
4. The animals they get to shoot are normally old and would die off in the bush in the near future anyway.

So the huntsman gets to sate his desire to hunt, the money he pays goes towards conservation efforts and the animal was coming to the end of its life anyway and gets a painless death.

goose2005 · 06-02-2018 05:37PM

This isn't a tragedy. Pero Jelinic was an elderly male way past reproductive age and the human race will not miss him. He was more likely to chase younger, fertile males away from females, and a drain on food resources, so in a way shooting him is a favour.

Discodog · 06-02-2018 06:21PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

1. They pay big money to go on these hunts.
2. Shooting anything from distance is a skill.
3. The big money they pay generally pays for the conservation efforts in the area.
4. The animals they get to shoot are normally old and would die off in the bush in the near future anyway.

So the huntsman gets to sate his desire to hunt, the money he pays goes towards conservation efforts and the animal was coming to the end of its life anyway and gets a painless death.

I very much doubt that they are shot at range. They are reared for hunting so probably tame & not old.

And people get to view wildlife as something to kill, provided you have the money. Hardly an incentive to stop poaching.

Discodog · 06-02-2018 06:30PM

Shenshen wrote: »

While I do believe that you have to be a special kind of prick to go out of your way and spend a considerable amount of money to go and kill an animal, I also wonder how we would feel if big predators still roamed our own countryside here, threatening people and lifestock? If may be a bit too easy to just not want humans to kill lions.

These Lions are captive bred & caged. There are a threat to no one. There are cases where a "maneater" or rogue elephant have to be culled.

weldoninhio · 06-02-2018 08:30PM

Discodog wrote: »

I very much doubt that they are shot at range. They are reared for hunting so probably tame & not old.

And people get to view wildlife as something to kill, provided you have the money. Hardly an incentive to stop poaching.

Take away the money that goes towards conservation from these lodges and watch extinctions rates rocket. That’ll be better.

decky1 · 07-02-2018 02:18AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

1. They pay big money to go on these hunts.
2. Shooting anything from distance is a skill.
3. The big money they pay generally pays for the conservation efforts in the area.
4. The animals they get to shoot are normally old and would die off in the bush in the near future anyway.

So the huntsman gets to sate his desire to hunt, the money he pays goes towards conservation efforts and the animal was coming to the end of its life anyway and gets a painless death.

eh I think you need to wake up if you think any of that statement is true,:mad:

weldoninhio · 07-02-2018 10:51AM

decky1 wrote: »

eh I think you need to wake up if you think any of that statement is true,:mad:

http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HuntingIsConservation/25ReasonsWhyHuntingIsConservation.aspx

decky1 · 07-02-2018 12:02PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HuntingIsConservation/25ReasonsWhyHuntingIsConservation.aspx

nice one, have you one for Africa.?:rolleyes:

weldoninhio · 07-02-2018 04:45PM

decky1 wrote: »

nice one, have you one for Africa.?:rolleyes:

Yup :rolleyes:

https://biggamehuntingadventures.com/heres-how-hunting-promotes-wildlife-conservation/

Discodog · 07-02-2018 05:11PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HuntingIsConservation/25ReasonsWhyHuntingIsConservation.aspx

Hardly biased :rolleyes:

https://biggamehuntingadventures.com/heres-how-hunting-promotes-wildlife-conservation/

Even more biased.

weldoninhio · 07-02-2018 08:16PM

Discodog wrote: »

Hardly biased :rolleyes:

https://biggamehuntingadventures.com/heres-how-hunting-promotes-wildlife-conservation/

Even more biased.

I also read a blog by Nelly the Elephant about how she was forced to pack her truck and say hello to the circus due to a ban on hunting meaning no conservation funds, but I can’t seem to find it right now.

gozunda · 07-02-2018 08:32PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think you may have your moral blinkers on. Why is a cows life less important?

One could argue that keeping an animal in captivity, forcing insemination in order to milk it, keeping it away from its young and then butchering it for food is much more immoral.

Oh ffs stop reading rubbish online and go visit a real farm somewhere. Nothing what you said in faux outrage bears any relation to reality.

Want to be a vegan? Fine. Stop telling others what you imagine 'morality' to be.

diomed · 07-02-2018 08:39PM

Discodog wrote: »

I very much doubt that they are shot at range. .

Although I have disagreed with you about hunting (I think it is a necessary evil to finance conservation) I believe these hunters do not track animals, nor are skillful shots that shoot animals at a distance.
They are driven to the animals and shoot them at fairly close range.
The few I saw looked like tourists with guns, wealthy tourists.
Then they pose for photos with their trophies that they "hunted".
Shooting antelopes does not take much skill. They stand sideways to you presenting the greatest possible target.

Feisar · 07-02-2018 08:42PM

So basically a guy got killed in a sporting accident and people are happy. Or am I wrong?

gozunda · 07-02-2018 08:49PM

Feisar wrote: »

So basically a guy got killed in a sporting accident and people are happy. Or am I wrong?

That's seems to be the gist of it. Some people would prefer to issue death threats to dairy farmers on twitter and others rather than consider the irony of their views.

Croatian man shot dead whilst on a South Africa Lion trophy hunt

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