2262 teachers on a career break? For 5 years?

26-01-2018 09:18PM

KellyXX wrote: »

I think everyone in any job should be allowed a year out. I would feel better arguing for that for everyone than having a moan and wanting taken away from some just because I don't have it now.

A year sounds good. However, they should be banned from teaching anywhere for that year.

I would make exceptions for TDs. Due to the uncertainty of the job, I think they should be allowed a maximum of 8 years break, which would be a 2 term in the Dail.

Roger Hassenforder · 27-01-2018 12:16AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A year sounds good. However, they should be banned from teaching anywhere for that year.

I would make exceptions for TDs. Due to the uncertainty of the job, I think they should be allowed a maximum of 8 years break, which would be a 2 term in the Dail.

1.6

27-01-2018 12:47AM

I work in the private sector and our department used to offer relatively short career breaks (usually 6-8 months) so you could go travelling, study etc.. The problem was that many of the people that took the breaks were from other countries (mainly French/Germans) that would go back to their home country and get a job there and never come back.

They just took the career break option incase they didn’t get a job at home. Now they’ve stopped careers breaks. Such a shame for the rest of us who genuinely would have loved to take some time off and come back.

nice_guy80 · 27-01-2018 12:49AM

it is definitely causing huge problems for schools down the country

staff illnesses cannot be covered through substitute teachers

you cannot stop people going abroad to teach while on career breaks
they are broadening their horizons by experiencing another culture and educational system

cycle4fun · 27-01-2018 12:55AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you cannot stop people going abroad to teach while on career breaks

Oh yes you can. The taxpayer here spends a fortune training teachers, nurses, doctors. They should have to work a minimum number of years in Ireland and there should be no career breaks. 99% of people in the private sector cannot get career breaks, their employers could not afford that system.

Time we stopped teachers living the high life in Dubai at taxpayers expense here.

joebloggs32 · 27-01-2018 01:11AM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

How are the TDs, ministers and Senators bypassing the terms and conditions of this scheme?

Surely it's not being relaxed because of who they are/might know etc?

Or is there some small print that means these terms and conditions do not apply to public representatives?

Surely no one is trying to suggest that all these stories from different sosources are wrong?

There was a time when those elected to the oireachtas could have their old jobs held over indefinitely. It gave them a safety net.
This however no longer applies. If a teacher leaves their job to become a TD or senator and does not return after 5 years they must resign their position. This change was introduced sometime this decade, but can't remember exactly which year.

evolving_doors · 27-01-2018 07:11AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Oh yes you can. The taxpayer here spends a fortune training teachers, nurses, doctors. They should have to work a minimum number of years in Ireland and there should be no career breaks. 99% of people in the private sector cannot get career breaks, their employers could not afford that system.

Time we stopped teachers living the high life in Dubai at taxpayers expense here.

Hear, hear, they should be deported home and made work part-time low hours and pro rata pay, then let's make them wait 2 months before they get a pay check.:rolleyes:

evolving_doors · 27-01-2018 07:25AM

nice_guy80 wrote: »

it is definitely causing huge problems for schools down the country

staff illnesses cannot be covered through substitute teachers

you cannot stop people going abroad to teach while on career breaks
they are broadening their horizons by experiencing another culture and educational system

And here's the lie being peddled by the minister.
There was ALWAYS career breaks.
This is NOT causing teacher shortages (which confusingly the minister claims there are no shortages).
It's the lack of students taking up the PME.
This is pure spin put out to distract the issue.
Next it'll be 'minister gets tough on religious schools'... oh look over there.
Or look over here...'minister going to review school uniforms'.
Edit: look over here .it's Unions causing teacher shortages now https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/why-irish-teachers-unions-are-opposing-career-break-restrictions-36535311.html
No you morons , it's an unwillingness to become a teacher in Ireland is causing the shortage.

Although STEM related, this guy hits the nail on the head. If you're wondering 'whats this old fart know about anything ?' then look into his background.

Main point is at 50:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNznD9hMEh0

Ironically we have many engineers who would love to move into teaching... but are driven demented with the teaching council.

Anyway:
Let the floggings continue until morale improves.

Jawgap · 27-01-2018 08:03AM

Blazer wrote: »

Is it any public sector job?
I know one lad working in IT there bitterly complaining he couldn’t move up a grade as the head dev was in the US for a few years and his job was still being held for him in case he decided to come back before the 5 years were up.
It’s a complete joke really.
You leave your job then tough titty. You decide to run for politics? Then make a decision and if you fail to get voted in then start looking for another job. See how the normal citizen has to get on in life and not be sucking from the taxpayers tits. It’s a major reason why none of these politicians has any real empathy towards the working people and this job holding needs to got rid of. Of course there’s not a hope of it as the public sector would never sign up for it.
Probably as apart from the health /fire sectors the majority of the public sector wouldn’t last 5 Mins in a real job given how useless and incompetent most of them are.

Really?

I left the PS 3 years ago to join a the Irish end of a UK start-up and we're doing just fine

As regards your mate, it sounds a bit off.....the rules in career breaks are clear. If the 'head of development' is gone for that long he gets a job if/when he comes back, not his old job. And most career break vacancies are filled internally because the organisations are, generally, not allowed recruit for them. Also anyone on a career break can be recalled at any time - so maybe they decided they can run without a head of development or there's another reason why your mate didn't get it. Either way, he should take it up with the union they're generally all over that stuff.

On a more general note you'd have to wonder why, if PS jobs here are apparently so well paid, recruitment is a problem and why so many who are recruited subsequently opt for career breaks

grind gremlin · 27-01-2018 08:40AM

My teaching qualification was not paid for by the state. Most young teachers travel abroad for a year or two so they can save for a mortgage as the won’t have a hope of getting the deposit together here with high rents and low wages.

The_Valeyard · 27-01-2018 08:46AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

Oh yes you can. The taxpayer here spends a fortune training teachers, nurses, doctors. They should have to work a minimum number of years in Ireland and there should be no career breaks. 99% of people in the private sector cannot get career breaks, their employers could not afford that system.

Time we stopped teachers living the high life in Dubai at taxpayers expense here.

You sound so bitter

evolving_doors · 27-01-2018 08:59AM

Look at the way the indo has spun it...

'Irish teachers opposing career break restrictions '

Whereas what a union spokesperson Actually said was ...
"This is yet another ill-advised ’sticking plaster’ approach that ignores the urgent need to remedy a much more serious problem.

The problem is teacher shortages not career breaks.

Actually cutting career breaks would further create problems for new entrants:

Currently a new entrant teacher might have the opportunity to get some experience and the chance of regular pay when another teacher goes on unpaid career break.
A newly graduated teacher in our school said he was ready to head off to New Zealand when the career break opening came up. At least hes more likely to hang around as he's obtained good experience for future (part-time!) jobs.

nice_guy80 · 27-01-2018 09:21AM

cycle4fun wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

you cannot stop people going abroad to teach while on career breaks

Oh yes you can. The taxpayer here spends a fortune training teachers, nurses, doctors. They should have to work a minimum number of years in Ireland and there should be no career breaks. 99% of people in the private sector cannot get career breaks, their employers could not afford that system.

Time we stopped teachers living the high life in Dubai at taxpayers expense here.

doctors spend on average 60k on education
many teachers do a post grad or distance learning course which are both self funded
nursing courses aren't free either

anyone off on a career break has worked up a number of years to be entitled to one.
I even took one myself but went off travelling

yes there is a drop off in applications for teaching. but you won't find too many current teachers recommending it as a career.
more paperwork, more initiatives, more crowding of curriculum, far more issues to deal with in the class and children today

SHOVELLER · 29-01-2018 04:13AM

Musa Hallowed Threat wrote: »

SHOVELLER wrote: »

As an ex civil servant who left due to choking incompetence from management I did take a career break for a little more than 2 years and it was the best decision I made. Arguably it cost me promotion but I didnt care as that experience broadened my horizons no end and I saw there was a better life than working for unqualified, unsuitable management until I was 65.

Just to add career breaks are unpaid so it does save the taxpayer and as said one has to wait for the next available position to pop up. Your exact job is not just kept for you!

At the time I took the career break the limit was 5 years and the general rule was that anyone who was gone that long didnt come back. Now I believe it has been extended to 10 years.

I worked with some poor managers in the Civil Service. I also worked for some excellent ones. Why do people act as if the many thousands of people who populate the public sector are all some homogenous mass? I've witnessed some appalling incompetence from people in the private sector, but I don't assume they're all like that.

I never there wasnt excellent managers there. In fact there were but the particular department I was last in there was just too much incompetence. I just got sick of doing another person's job and watching how management made excuses for that person.

I too have witnessed appalling incompetence in the private sector. I lost an apartment because of the incompetence of one particular "bank". And there were no repercussions for the individual that caused it.

lemmno · 31-01-2018 09:00AM

There's always been career breaks. People aren't leaving to 'live the high life', they're leaving to try and earn enough money to buy a house here, which is very difficult to do on a new teacher's wages. There was a time when the wage was decent but now it is very difficult for a new teacher starting out to make ends meet on what they're being paid. I've seen their payslips, it really is shockingly bad. That said, I'm sure they knew the score when they applied to be teachers.

BillyBobBS · 31-01-2018 09:07AM

KellyXX wrote: »

I had a public service job years ago.
I took a 5 year career break and loved it.
Eventually I went back but I only stayed 2 years and then went to the private sector.
It was great perk to have , and it really broadens your horizons and I'm so glad I did it.
Everyone should take at least a year out of work in their 20s because the longer you go on the less likely you will be to take it.

Absolutely, life is too short.

sbsquarepants · 31-01-2018 09:10AM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Enda Kenny enjoyed a 30 year break from his teaching job.

Didn't effect his pension either. Full teachers pension for 4 years work.

31-01-2018 09:57AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Didn't effect his pension either. Full teachers pension for 4 years work.

He didn’t draw down his teachers pension. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/kenny-i-wont-accept-teacher-pension-145995.html

Chinasea · 31-01-2018 10:24AM

Piss or get off the pot.

sbsquarepants · 31-01-2018 12:23PM

Deleted User wrote: »

He didn’t draw down his teachers pension. https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/politics/kenny-i-wont-accept-teacher-pension-145995.html

Not yet......

http://www.thejournal.ie/kenny-says-he-will-defer-e100k-pension-lump-sum-until-he-leaves-politics-87736-Feb2011/

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 31-01-2018 01:52PM

SHOVELLER wrote: »

I never there wasnt excellent managers there. In fact there were but the particular department I was last in there was just too much incompetence. I just got sick of doing another person's job and watching how management made excuses for that person.

I too have witnessed appalling incompetence in the private sector. I lost an apartment because of the incompetence of one particular "bank". And there were no repercussions for the individual that caused it.

Well in fairness you said that you didn't want to stay in the Civil Service working for incompetent managers 'until I'm 65' which implied that you thought all Managers working in the CS were incompetent.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 31-01-2018 02:01PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Right, so here's the problem with the public sector.

The nature of the public sector means a certain kind of person is attracted to work there, personality type wise. Characteristics include:

-More routine based and not being a novelty seeking/creative person than average. The idea of doing the same thing day in and day out out for decades appeals to them. You can quantify this in terms of personality as "openness to experience" as measured by the Big Five. Public sector workers score low in "openness to experience". They dislike new things.

-In relation to the above point, the safety and security aspect of the job appeals to people who are high in neuroticism, and in turn, typically high in agreeableness as well. As a result, public sector organizations tend to be places where "no one will make a decision" and less gets done as a result.

-Take a look at linkedin. Most public sector lads tend to have degrees in useless bumfluff subjects. The really smart lads are elsewhere. The dumb lads don't make the cut. So the public sector tends to attract people who are smart, but not very smart. Hence, more incompetence at higher ends, and more people believing in silly, odd theories;easier to manipulate essentially. Dunning Krueger effect as well is very strong. I've seen the "the country would collapse without us" arrogance in a lot of these lads.

So what does this mean? The average public sector worker is:

Clever but not very clever and has an over-inflated opinion of one's intelligence.
Very routine and not open to new things.
Very stress intolerant.
Very agreeable.
Very prone to manipulation by silly ideologies and more left wing typically.

When your education system is populated with people exclusively like this and your government departments are populated by people with this enitre personality type, bad things start to happen.

I worked in the public sector for a small bit after university. All I will say is that any half decent Python programmer could make a lot of the work and people's jobs in there in there completely redundant.

They must have been devastated when you left :rolleyes:

I worked in the Public Sector and met loads of creative, highly intelligent people with degrees in everything from Law to Arts to Economics. They obviously didn't get that memo telling them to be dull and routine and only a little bit clever.

Seriously, I've never read such ignorant, ill informed, pompous, patronising bullsh*t in my life. Thank God you're not inflicting your 'intelligence' on our Public Sector any more.

10-02-2018 12:14AM

lemmno wrote: »

There's always been career breaks. People aren't leaving to 'live the high life', they're leaving to try and earn enough money to buy a house here, which is very difficult to do on a new teacher's wages.

Why is someone new to a job looking to buy a house?

Care to give some examples of jobs where it is possible for someone new to it to buy a house?

lemmno wrote: »

There was a time when the wage was decent but now it is very difficult for a new teacher starting out to make ends meet on what they're being paid. I've seen their payslips, it really is shockingly bad. That said, I'm sure they knew the score when they applied to be teachers.

Isn't just as well then, that their salary increases with each year with the salary scale.

Everyone's pay is generally low starting off. Teachers are no exception, although listening to the never-ending poor mouthing from them, you would swear they were.

TheQuietFella · 10-02-2018 12:21AM

jcorr wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/0126/936116-teachers/

Hi all. I was just reading this article. Is it really allowed for a teacher to take a break (5 years apparently! ) and to go work abroad (like Dubai) as a teacher and come back to their old job? Seems a bit unfair. What do you think?

What about those elected representatives in government who are doing the very same and they can claim the difference between what was their teaching salary and the person who is covering their absence!

Should Teachers then be barred from running for election?

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/teachers-still-top-of-class-for-31st-dail-representation-26709393.html

nice_guy80 · 10-02-2018 12:47AM

TheQuietFella wrote: »

What about those elected representatives in government who are doing the very same and they can claim the difference between what was their teaching salary and the person who is covering their absence!

Should Teachers then be barred from running for election?

https://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/teachers-still-top-of-class-for-31st-dail-representation-26709393.html

its up to the BOM
they can refuse a career break or limit the term of it

lemmno · 10-02-2018 01:43AM

salonfire wrote: »

Why is someone new to a job looking to buy a house?

Care to give some examples of jobs where it is possible for someone new to it to buy a house?

Isn't just as well then, that their salary increases with each year with the salary scale.

Everyone's pay is generally low starting off. Teachers are no exception, although listening to the never-ending poor mouthing from them, you would swear they were.

I was referring to teachers on the new scale, who after 3 or 4 years teaching are still not earning the same starting salary as someone else who entered the profession merely a year earlier. They would certainly find it difficult to make any gains with saving money. They’d live off it of course, but that’s about it.

Nobody is saying anyone is expecting to buy a house right away. But if a house is what they want one day then why not get a better head start at getting that deposit together and heading off to the Middle East for a year or two?

Lots of professions have it tough financially. However no profession has to constantly keep defending itself as much as the teaching profession.

There were also increment freezes, no automatic increase in salary like in previous years.

Donald Trump · 10-02-2018 02:06AM

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Enda Kenny enjoyed a 30 year break from his teaching job.

That's not a career break. There is just a rule that they can leave their job if they are elected and that the job will be held indefinitely for them. It's separate from the normal 5-year career breaks that they can take

I also heard at one point, maybe not true but it seemed like a reasonable source at the time, that if a teacher got elected to the Dail, what happened was that their salary was used to pay for their replacement. In the event that the replacement teacher was on a lower rate (probably usually the case), then the teacher/politician got to pocket the difference......

I know one teacher on their second career break.....still in their 30's too. They maxed out the first one at 5 years but then went back to keep the benefits and old pay-scales alive. As soon as they were eligible for the second one they took it.

10-02-2018 10:19AM

lemmno wrote: »

I was referring to teachers on the new scale, who after 3 or 4 years teaching are still not earning the same starting salary as someone else who entered the profession merely a year earlier. They would certainly find it difficult to make any gains with saving money. They’d live off it of course, but that’s about it.

Nobody is saying anyone is expecting to buy a house right away. But if a house is what they want one day then why not get a better head start at getting that deposit together and heading off to the Middle East for a year or two?

Lots of professions have it tough financially. However no profession has to constantly keep defending itself as much as the teaching profession.

There were also increment freezes, no automatic increase in salary like in previous years.

So what's the solution then? If teachers feel that strongly about new entrants pay, why not reduce the salaries of older teachers (who are earning close to €70000) and redistribute to young teachers?

That way no further money needs to be re-diverted from areas like health into further salary increases.

Or is the teaching unions looking to get the ATM going again (a comment made by Joe OToole regarding benchmarking)

I don't get your point about increment freezes; these were continued to be paid during the downturn ... ?

evolving_doors · 10-02-2018 11:48AM

salonfire wrote: »

So what's the solution then? If teachers feel that strongly about new entrants pay, why not reduce the salaries of older teachers (who are earning close to €70000) and redistribute to young teachers?

That way no further money needs to be re-diverted from areas like health into further salary increases.

Or is the teaching unions looking to get the ATM going again (a comment made by Joe OToole regarding benchmarking)

I don't get your point about increment freezes; these were continued to be paid during the downturn ... ?

No, increments weren't paid.

Anyhow the problem isn't just the low headline salary figure.
The possible is that few see this 'starting salary' when they start. They see a portion of it.
So if you're coming out after 6 odd years and you get say 11hrs starting out. That's approx 18k gross. Then when that year is up what's the plan?
Especially when they now follow your scheme of reducing top of the scale 65k.... to what 60k! After 40 years.
Then compound that with pension being changed to career average rather than final salary. So don't forget those initial low hour 'outliers' are counted for the average pulling the pension down.
Then there's the abuse you take from the 'intellugencia' in the media who never even bother to get a teacher on their panel (enter ed Walsh.. Eddie Hobbs). So the appreciation you'll get from anyone =sqrt(sweetfeckall).

Floggings will continue until morale improves.

10-02-2018 12:19PM

evolving_doors wrote: »

No, increments weren't paid.

Anyhow the problem isn't just the low headline salary figure.
The possible is that few see this 'starting salary' when they start. They see a portion of it.
So if you're coming out after 6 odd years and you get say 11hrs starting out. That's approx 18k gross. Then when that year is up what's the plan?
Especially when they now follow your scheme of reducing top of the scale 65k.... to what 60k! After 40 years.
Then compound that with pension being changed to career average rather than final salary. So don't forget those initial low hour 'outliers' are counted for the average pulling the pension down.
Then there's the abuse you take from the 'intellugencia' in the media who never even bother to get a teacher on their panel (enter ed Walsh.. Eddie Hobbs). So the appreciation you'll get from anyone =sqrt(sweetfeckall).

Floggings will continue until morale improves.

Increments were paid. They might have been delayed by a few months at one stage, but they were paid.

Teachers not signing up to agreements in order to receive the increments is not the same as saying increments were not paid.

Haha, don't worry, my scheme will never see the light of day! Older teachers will unite to ensure they are kept insulated.

It is the system itself that is hiring teachers like a gig economy (the system made up of teachers and civil servants), not the government and not the general public.

The reason teacher unions target the government with every dispute is to lever an opening of the state's purse.

2262 teachers on a career break? For 5 years?

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