The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Odhinn · 30-01-2018 09:23AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Worse still, Miss P,
Having a brain dead women on life support because of a fetus has a heartbeat but the mothers brain is decomposing is just what every partner and family wants.

It's replaced having a close female relative committed to an asylum as an aspirational goal.

nozzferrahhtoo · 30-01-2018 09:32AM

Laois_Man wrote: »

My main gripe with the governments chosen method is when you take it out of the constitution and into the hands of the legislatures, every General Election forever more could effectively become another abortion referendum with every party proposing new changes as part of their manifesto.

That is what democracy is for me though. An ongoing and changing conversation about the laws and values in our society. As little as possible should be written in stone for all time and never changeable. And if the values and the will of the people changes over time, this should be reflected in who they elect.

Even if my values WIN the referendum I would not like to think my values will win forever more. I want them to be continuously tested, challenged and questioned. Because unlike some on this thread I do not see my positions as always right, or me as perfect. If I am wrong in a value I hold, I want to be shown my error, and I want society to be able to reflect that change.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody is changing anybody's mind folks.

Even if I believed that true, I would still debate issues of import. However I do not believe it true. And one of the reasons I do not believe it true is that every forum I have spoken in on the subject, both on and off line, I have had people tell me publicly and privately that how I have conducted myself in the debate, and the things I have said, have indeed changed their mind and/or approach to the issue.

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

At least be honest about your motives.

If by "be honest about your motives" you mean "allow me to put as much of MY words in YOUR mouth as possible" then no I do not think I will be doing that.

I myself am very honest about my motives. My motives are to live in a country and society that values the rights, choices and well being of ACTUAL sentient entities, and does not curtail them in deference to entities that are not the least bit sentient at all.

nozzferrahhtoo · 30-01-2018 09:32AM

Jim Ellis wrote: »

They have a point. Morals and value of human life are slowly being eroded in society. The right-on liberals will find something else to focus their attention on after this referendum is passed.

I think your narrative has it exactly backwards. What I see happening in society is a focus on what it even means to have morals and ethics and rights. What are they? What are they for? And on what basis do we assign and afford and mediate them?

Rather than an erosion of the value of human life I see us focusing on what it is to BE human in the first place. What exactly IS it that we value and why? Because everyone I have encountered on the pro-repeal side, and on the pro-choice side, have very deeply valued human life. They are just also VERY clear on what that means and entails. And in the shock reveal of the century, their value judgement is not founded on mere strands of DNA. Also in shock news: Water is wet.

And when we consider the answers to those questions..... what it is we value about humans.... what it is we do with rights and why..... and what attributes all of this is based on.......... we find that the attributes in question happen to be the ones the fetus not slightly but WHOLLY lacks entirely.

And as such there is no reason to afford such a fetus any moral or ethical concern, or rights. That is not an erosion of rights, or values, or morals in our society. It is a focusing on them in a way that makes sense rather than the vague hand waving of the past. And long may it continue!

ricero wrote: »

Abortion cannot be used as a form of contraception. Society cannot become a place without responsibilities and abortion a way out for people who dont use contraceptive methods when practicising sex.

Abortion cannot be used as a form of contraception by definition. A contraception prevents conception. Abortion by definition does not do this. Abortion terminates a pregnancy. So your first use of terms is wrong.

Your second use is also wrong when you say abortion is for people who do not use contraceptive methods. Firstly MANY pregnancies occur DESPITE contraception being used. Secondly some occur through sex the woman was not a willing participant of. Thirdly pregnancies are sometimes planned and wanted, but AFTER conception the circumstances of the people involved change.

A further error in your narrative lies in the fact that abortion != a failure to take responsibility. Taking responsibility in a situation means rationally considering ALL your options and choosing the one that best fits your situation and requirements. That is the core of taking responsibility. And abortion is an OPTION for such people to consider and, sometimes, take. Forcing people not to have abortions is not giving them responsibility. It is you taking it FROM them and exercising it vicariously on their behalf.

nozzferrahhtoo · 30-01-2018 09:32AM

Doltanian wrote: »

There should be referendum on killing innocent babies. Full Stop.

Lucky that is not what the referendum OR abortion is about isn't it? Abortion is about terminating a fetus. A "Baby" is another word with a whole different narrative. A narrative you are trying to exploit in an "argument from emotion" because arguments of rationality are entirely failing you.

If you actually want to change minds (assuming you do) in the upcoming vote then I think screaming words like "Baby" and "murder" is not going to do it. What WOULD change minds, and it would change my mind over night without a moments hesitation, reservation, or apology..... would be if you construct a rational argument as to why we should have any moral or ethical concern for a 12 week old fetus, or why we should afford it any rights.

Alas the people I have laid that challenge to so far have basically run away from the thread.

Doltanian wrote: »

Irish people are not capable of being trusted at the ballot box

If by "not trusted" you mean "they will not agree with me and what I want them to do in my self appointed role as emperor" then yes.... I am afraid that is how democracy works.

However I do know how democracy works, and if the vote does not go my way I will not be denigrating the public for being less trustworthy than myself. Rather I will start the NEXT campaign and the NEXT series of education and debate for the NEXT vote whenever and wherever it may be. Because again, that is what democracy involves.

Doltanian wrote: »

I stand with the Right and the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I am a young person and I always speak my mind and never hide what I believe.

I tend not to stand by organisations that lie to people and systematically at all levels cover up abuses. However it is a democracy and the members of such an organisation have every right to vote too. Something tells me said organisation has no more rational arguments for affording a fetus rights than you have thus far presented however. Nor do I suspect you have any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to offer that the god entity said organisation is entirely and wholly based on, even exists in the first place.

Zubeneschamali · 30-01-2018 09:56AM

The text of Varadkar's statement is here.

I like this line near the end:
No longer an article of our Constitution, but rather a private and personal matter for women and doctors.

Again suggesting that this will be the last we hear from pro-lifers in the mainstream, they will be relegated to fringe protests since the matter will be a private medical one from now on.

erica74 · 30-01-2018 10:02AM

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

Forgive me not reading all of the ( boring ) but what exactly does repealing the 8th imply for the unborn and for the woman? Can it be explained in 2 sentences. ?
I'm thinking here we go again, I'm not going to vote if I dont fully understand what they are at here....

In all fairness, you need to educate yourself and come to a decision yourself. You shouldn't be voting based on the information given to you by other people who may have a biased uneducated opinion.
And I hope this doesn't come across as condescending or anything like that, I mean this genuinely.

Mrs Shuttleworth · 30-01-2018 10:07AM

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

murpho999 · 30-01-2018 10:12AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

"Unwanted crisis pregnancy", oh get to f**k.

This referendum is purely to facilitate Tara Flynn types to bang strange men without a condom and without consequences, and greedy doctors get rich on the back of it.

Referendum night I'd rather watch Bullseye reruns than get off my ar $e to facilitate selfish hipsters.

At least be honest about your motives.

Honest about my motives? What motives?

I'm a married man in my mid forties so what motive could I have?

Your post sounds archaic and very anti-women.
Do you truly believe that women out there want to have sex with strange men without a condom, not very wise for STIs?
Do you really believe that crisis pregnancies don't exist?
Do you really think people will take the decision of having an abortion lightly and not face any consequences?

One thing you do raise though is there should be better education and promotion of contraception as this would help against the need for abortion in some cases.

Night Falls · 30-01-2018 10:12AM

And the stream of batsh1t mentalism flows on and on.

Nettle Soup · 30-01-2018 10:13AM

I liked that Simon Harris said he is pro life too and that the categorisation "Pro Life" is out-dated and belongs in the 1980s.

TomSweeney · 30-01-2018 10:15AM

pleas advice wrote: »

he's being illegal

(if he has left more than 18 months ago and/or is not planning on returning for good within 18 months)

****! I didn;t know, seems really unfair .

I'm an Irish citizen after all, that will eventually come back to Ireland.

Night Falls · 30-01-2018 10:24AM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

1. I'd be willing to bet everything I own that the referendum text isn't going to contain any text about restricting abortion rights to white people. On that basis, your first point is nonsense.

2. What raw body parts exactly?

You're not really expecting a rational response, are you? It will be the internet equivalent of a message written on a wall in excrement.

30-01-2018 10:25AM

Lovetoo sell bodyparts

seamus · 30-01-2018 10:25AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

I do hear those lizard overlords pay top money for freshly-aborted baby parts to feast on at their Bilderberg dinners.

Ave Sodalis · 30-01-2018 10:30AM

seamus wrote: »

I do hear those lizard overlords pay top money for freshly-aborted baby parts to feast on at their Bilderberg dinners.

That's a lie. It's actually aliens so they can replicate our body parts through consumption, then be born unto human females and begin their world domination. The humans won't even see it coming.

Zubeneschamali · 30-01-2018 10:30AM

TomSweeney wrote: »

****! I didn;t know, seems really unfair .

I'm an Irish citizen after all, that will eventually come back to Ireland.

You could make up your mind to return for good within 18 months on Referendum day, and then change your mind next day.

Night Falls · 30-01-2018 10:33AM

Is anyone else really really REALLY looking forward to the calm and reasoned debate *from both sides* (TM) over the next few months? I might do myself a mischief i'm so excited.

30-01-2018 10:36AM

Night Falls wrote: »

Is anyone else really really REALLY looking forward to the calm and reasoned debate *from both sides* (TM) over the next few months? I might do myself a mischief i'm so excited.

Unfortunately RTE and the rest of our established media have demonstrated time and again that they cannot moderate a serious debate between the moderate opposing views.

It'll be a free for all between triggered bluehairs and frothing relics

pleas advice · 30-01-2018 10:36AM

Im looking forward to 'calm' from one side of the debate, and 'reasoned' from the other...

Not sure which is which though

SusieBlue · 30-01-2018 10:40AM

Purely anecdotal but I'm in a facebook group specifically for Irish women and mothers, over 22k in the group.
The topic of the 8th came up and I was honestly gobsmacked.
Knowing the demographic of the group, and opinions on previous similar topics, I was shocked and very proud to see that in 700+ posts, about 98% with pro repeal.
The majority of these women are mothers with young kids, a lot of them are doing it on their own.

Interestingly, their reasoning for their decision wasn't just about abortion, but more so maternity care.
Hundreds of posts from real women detailing the appalling care they received.
One woman was given an episiotomy (if you don't know what it is, look it up) against her will, after repeatedly telling her doctor she didn't consent.

The doctor went against her wishes due to the fact that he estimated her baby would weigh around 10lb.
This was during the early stages of labour and the baby wasn't in any distress.
When her baby was born, she was a tiny 6lb. The episiotomy was wholly unnecessary.
Especially considering it was NOT done in an emergency situation. She wasn't even given a chance to push the baby out herself.

It was eye opening reading all the replies. Some of the stories about what women were put through were heartbreaking.

Cabaal · 30-01-2018 10:42AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Hows that tinfoil hat fitting you these days?

You think only white middle class women have abortions, think again.

Saying no muslims have abortions is also as silly as claiming no Catholics have abortions. We know this is not true.

As for your claim of selling body parts, I'm not even going to waste my time
:rolleyes:

Call me Al · 30-01-2018 10:43AM

sjb25 wrote: »

I was on the yes side the more I think about it I’m now swaying into mayb I genuinely haven’t a clue what way I’m going to vote on this.
And I’m normally pretty certain on this kind of stuff and would normally be on the yes side for the likes of this but I just don’t no

Iv a few months of thinking to do

one thing I do no is my family as an example is split down the middle was almost civil war the other night over it in our house. Had a gathering of about 10 people was almost 50/50 I’d say it’s oretty the same in work it’s going to be a close one this it’s people like myself who are undecided are going to sway this

Please bear in mind , when you're deciding, that abortions are already happening in Ireland. Thousands ordering the abortion pill online and taking it at home without medical guidance. And then those who are travelling everyday to use abortion services abroad.
A no vote on repeal won't change any of this. But it will lead to more headline cases in the future Miss a, Miss c, Miss x etc as maternity care and staff will continue within this grey legal area.

_Dara_ · 30-01-2018 10:43AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Mr. CooL ICE · 30-01-2018 10:43AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Mod: Mrs Shuttleworth, this type of post is borderline racist and conspiracy theorist hysteria. If you want to be taken seriously, maybe backing up outlandish statements with some sort of credible source would be a good start.

Odhinn · 30-01-2018 10:44AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

I mean no reference to the theory of evolution when I say that you should take this back up the tree with you.

realitykeeper · 30-01-2018 10:46AM

RobertKK wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

The citizens assembly was not made up of millions of people whereas the 8th was the result of a referendum which was voted on by a million + of the population. A referendum is therefore required. I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Similarly, in elections, I vote in a very uncompromising way i.e. for the people I agree with even if they have no hope of being elected. Those I only partially agree with do not get any preference from me just because they have a chance of being elected. Compromising on one`s principles reduces one to the level of the politician.

Cabaal · 30-01-2018 11:02AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Can I ask, since you support the 8th do you also think article 42.2 of the constitution should be fully followed and enforced by the Irish state?

....... · 30-01-2018 11:23AM

This post has been deleted.

Guy:Incognito · 30-01-2018 11:24AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

The citizens assembly was not made up of millions of people whereas the 8th was the result of a referendum which was voted on by a million + of the population. A referendum is therefore required. I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Similarly, in elections, I vote in a very uncompromising way i.e. for the people I agree with even if they have no hope of being elected. Those I only partially agree with do not get any preference from me just because they have a chance of being elected. Compromising on one`s principles reduces one to the level of the politician.

Doing what you believe is right would be not having an abortion. If you stay out of other people's lives and they stay out of yours, then everything is fine. Seeing as no one is forced to have an abortion, then you're life won't change a bit .

Just like the marriage equality referendum, the sky won't fall if other people are afforded more rights, despite what certain scaremongering groups predicted. Incidentally ,they've been awfully quite the last couple of years since the referendum and their predictions of the country collapsing around us haven't materialised........

I can't see what people gain ,in their own lives, from knowing they tried to restrict other peoples rights. Does it really give them comfort to sit at home in front of the telly thinking " I really stuck it to those women/men that I'll never know today"

Separately, on the figures quoted from the op on the citizens assembly, why the hell would you take part in one on the subject of abortion if you're going to get to the end and say "I'd rather not give my opinion" ?

Wombatman · 30-01-2018 11:27AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Depends on profit margins surely?

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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