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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

__________________

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Spanish Eyes

Repeal or not, abortion is a reality here, whether by imported pills or travelling to another country.

If people thought that disabled children were guaranteed the best of care and facilities throughout their lives, there would be less talk of DS abortions and all the rest of it.

The focus should be on treating the children of the nation equally in every respect whether suffering from a profound/mild disability or not. That is pro life, not pro foetus and it is where the focus should lie. Sadly we have seen so many protests at the lack of facilities for our disabled community. That's where it should all start really.

Rights for the born.

baylah17

pleas advice wrote: »

Some people believe an unborn human has rights, is it really that hard to understand?

Yes it is.

How can a week old fetus be considered a unborn human? How does it acquire rights at that stage.

By your logic from the instant of conception it has rights, do those conceived through IVF have the same rights? Do frozen embryos have the "right" to be brought to full term and be "born", and if so who will forcibly implant them in womb of a woman against her will?

.......

This post has been deleted.

SusieBlue

pleas advice wrote: »

Some people believe an unborn human has rights, is it really that hard to understand?

I believe that the living, breathing woman who is carrying that unborn human is far more important and that her needs and wants should be prioritised.
I don't believe her rights should be diminished and her bodily integrity not upheld, at the expense of giving a fetus (who cannot grow without her) equal rights.
If it weren't for her there would be no unborn to begin with.

Bannasidhe

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Have no doubt the governments of the day were working hand in glove with the RCC in selling 'guaranteed white' children to unvetted Americans.

http://www.thejournal.ie/us-adoptions-ireland-1950s-royal-irish-academy-3150953-Jan2017/

nozzferrahhtoo

pleas advice wrote: »

Some people believe an unborn human has rights, is it really that hard to understand?

Oh I understand THAT they think that. WHY they think it is something I have never understood in the context of a 12 week old fetus. And they do not seem to be able to explain it either.

The most we have been offered in that regard is from a poster unable to back up half the things they have said so far. And that was the fantastical claim that if something potentially could have rights in the future, it has a right to get to that point in it's future and attain them.

pleas advice

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I can't see what people gain ,in their own lives, from knowing they tried to restrict other peoples rights. Does it really give them comfort to sit at home in front of the telly thinking " I really stuck it to those women/men that I'll never know today"

Some people believe an unborn human has rights, is it really that hard to understand?

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Funnyonion79

raspberrypi67 wrote: »

Forgive me not reading all of the ( boring ) but what exactly does repealing the 8th imply for the unborn and for the woman? Can it be explained in 2 sentences. ?
I'm thinking here we go again, I'm not going to vote if I dont fully understand what they are at here....

Have a listen to Leo’s speech from last night and that should explain everything

Guy:Incognito

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

selling babies to americans was pure profit.

Hardly, sure just like any business, the biggest overhead is wages . Oh no hang on.........

ohnonotgmail

Wombatman wrote: »

Depends on profit margins surely?

selling babies to americans was pure profit. You cant beat that for margins.

Wombatman

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Depends on profit margins surely?

Guy:Incognito

realitykeeper wrote: »

The citizens assembly was not made up of millions of people whereas the 8th was the result of a referendum which was voted on by a million + of the population. A referendum is therefore required. I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Similarly, in elections, I vote in a very uncompromising way i.e. for the people I agree with even if they have no hope of being elected. Those I only partially agree with do not get any preference from me just because they have a chance of being elected. Compromising on one`s principles reduces one to the level of the politician.

Doing what you believe is right would be not having an abortion. If you stay out of other people's lives and they stay out of yours, then everything is fine. Seeing as no one is forced to have an abortion, then you're life won't change a bit .

Just like the marriage equality referendum, the sky won't fall if other people are afforded more rights, despite what certain scaremongering groups predicted. Incidentally ,they've been awfully quite the last couple of years since the referendum and their predictions of the country collapsing around us haven't materialised........

I can't see what people gain ,in their own lives, from knowing they tried to restrict other peoples rights. Does it really give them comfort to sit at home in front of the telly thinking " I really stuck it to those women/men that I'll never know today"

Separately, on the figures quoted from the op on the citizens assembly, why the hell would you take part in one on the subject of abortion if you're going to get to the end and say "I'd rather not give my opinion" ?

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Cabaal

realitykeeper wrote: »

I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Can I ask, since you support the 8th do you also think article 42.2 of the constitution should be fully followed and enforced by the Irish state?

realitykeeper

RobertKK wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

The citizens assembly was not made up of millions of people whereas the 8th was the result of a referendum which was voted on by a million + of the population. A referendum is therefore required. I will vote No to repealing the 8th because I believe that is the right thing to do. I think when you do what you believe is right, you are a winner regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

Similarly, in elections, I vote in a very uncompromising way i.e. for the people I agree with even if they have no hope of being elected. Those I only partially agree with do not get any preference from me just because they have a chance of being elected. Compromising on one`s principles reduces one to the level of the politician.

Odhinn

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

I mean no reference to the theory of evolution when I say that you should take this back up the tree with you.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Mod: Mrs Shuttleworth, this type of post is borderline racist and conspiracy theorist hysteria. If you want to be taken seriously, maybe backing up outlandish statements with some sort of credible source would be a good start.

_Dara_

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Call me Al

sjb25 wrote: »

I was on the yes side the more I think about it I’m now swaying into mayb I genuinely haven’t a clue what way I’m going to vote on this.
And I’m normally pretty certain on this kind of stuff and would normally be on the yes side for the likes of this but I just don’t no

Iv a few months of thinking to do

one thing I do no is my family as an example is split down the middle was almost civil war the other night over it in our house. Had a gathering of about 10 people was almost 50/50 I’d say it’s oretty the same in work it’s going to be a close one this it’s people like myself who are undecided are going to sway this

Please bear in mind , when you're deciding, that abortions are already happening in Ireland. Thousands ordering the abortion pill online and taking it at home without medical guidance. And then those who are travelling everyday to use abortion services abroad.
A no vote on repeal won't change any of this. But it will lead to more headline cases in the future Miss a, Miss c, Miss x etc as maternity care and staff will continue within this grey legal area.

Cabaal

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

There's only two reasons this proposal is being pushed so much:

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

That's it.

Hows that tinfoil hat fitting you these days?

You think only white middle class women have abortions, think again.

Saying no muslims have abortions is also as silly as claiming no Catholics have abortions. We know this is not true.

As for your claim of selling body parts, I'm not even going to waste my time
:rolleyes:

SusieBlue

Purely anecdotal but I'm in a facebook group specifically for Irish women and mothers, over 22k in the group.
The topic of the 8th came up and I was honestly gobsmacked.
Knowing the demographic of the group, and opinions on previous similar topics, I was shocked and very proud to see that in 700+ posts, about 98% with pro repeal.
The majority of these women are mothers with young kids, a lot of them are doing it on their own.

Interestingly, their reasoning for their decision wasn't just about abortion, but more so maternity care.
Hundreds of posts from real women detailing the appalling care they received.
One woman was given an episiotomy (if you don't know what it is, look it up) against her will, after repeatedly telling her doctor she didn't consent.

The doctor went against her wishes due to the fact that he estimated her baby would weigh around 10lb.
This was during the early stages of labour and the baby wasn't in any distress.
When her baby was born, she was a tiny 6lb. The episiotomy was wholly unnecessary.
Especially considering it was NOT done in an emergency situation. She wasn't even given a chance to push the baby out herself.

It was eye opening reading all the replies. Some of the stories about what women were put through were heartbreaking.

pleas advice

Im looking forward to 'calm' from one side of the debate, and 'reasoned' from the other...

Not sure which is which though

[Deleted User]

Night Falls wrote: »

Is anyone else really really REALLY looking forward to the calm and reasoned debate *from both sides* (TM) over the next few months? I might do myself a mischief i'm so excited.

Unfortunately RTE and the rest of our established media have demonstrated time and again that they cannot moderate a serious debate between the moderate opposing views.

It'll be a free for all between triggered bluehairs and frothing relics

Night Falls

Is anyone else really really REALLY looking forward to the calm and reasoned debate *from both sides* (TM) over the next few months? I might do myself a mischief i'm so excited.

Zubeneschamali

TomSweeney wrote: »

****! I didn;t know, seems really unfair .

I'm an Irish citizen after all, that will eventually come back to Ireland.

You could make up your mind to return for good within 18 months on Referendum day, and then change your mind next day.

Ave Sodalis

seamus wrote: »

I do hear those lizard overlords pay top money for freshly-aborted baby parts to feast on at their Bilderberg dinners.

That's a lie. It's actually aliens so they can replicate our body parts through consumption, then be born unto human females and begin their world domination. The humans won't even see it coming.

seamus

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

1. Control and reduction of the numbers of white working and middle classes, as a diktat from our EU overlords. Culturally any new regime will not extend to the Muslim and African communities;
2. A steady stream of raw body parts for transmission and sale to the multinational companies based here who want them.

I do hear those lizard overlords pay top money for freshly-aborted baby parts to feast on at their Bilderberg dinners.

[Deleted User]

Lovetoo sell bodyparts

Night Falls

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

1. I'd be willing to bet everything I own that the referendum text isn't going to contain any text about restricting abortion rights to white people. On that basis, your first point is nonsense.

2. What raw body parts exactly?

You're not really expecting a rational response, are you? It will be the internet equivalent of a message written on a wall in excrement.