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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #1202
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    pitifulgod wrote:
    You'll get a fair few women of previous generations that were never happy with Catholicism dictated their lives I suspect and don't want for it to continue.


    A woman has to consider her eternal destiny. "Do not fear him who can kill the body and then do no more. Rather fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell"


  • #1203
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    To be honest I can see this kind of faith based preaching and threatening instigating people to vote in favour of the referendum.
    It’s counter productive.


  • #1204
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    To be honest I feel like there should be no referendum. We should just scrap the 8th without putting into the people.


  • #1205
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,510 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Sorry but for a majority of this country the rights of the women simply take priority, polls show this time and time again

    Majority see the women's rights in cases of rape or incest are way above a fetus. Majority see a women's wish to have an abortion in cases of FFA should be respected. We should also never ever ever have a repeat of Miss P case and that case was caused by the 8th existing.

    Overall the 8th must be repealed in order for the majority's views to be respected.

    As yourself this, if your wife, sister, cousin was pregnant from rape and she wanted the rapists fetus out of her. Are you honestly saying you would force her to go to term against her wishes and ignoring the mental health issues you will create by putting her through such a continued violation of her body against her wishes?

    What if she imported some abortion pills and took them (as many women do) are you going to report her to the Gardai since she broke the law?


    there is no tangible proof the majority believe what you claim. opinion poles are only opinion and only survey a certain amount of people.
    if the majority actually do believe in removing the rights that the unborn have then that view must not be respected and must be ignored. one does not have the right to kill the unborn unless it is in extreme circumstances.
    david75 wrote: »
    The sad part is every single older person, who this referendum and the abortion issue doesn’t affect anymore whatsoever, will go out and vote and mostly against it yet the younger generations who it absolutely does and will affect won’t engage and vote at all.

    people past the age of having kids themselves having a say over the reproductive rights of young women is so unfair. They’ll be dead and gone and this and future generations will be bound to the result.

    We need to shake this horrible old grip of the church off. Ireland has moved on and grown up. With luck that’ll be reflected in this referendum passing.

    it is perfectly right that those who disagree with abortion on demand will vote, and vote against repeal, while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. ireland would become a hugely grown up nation by voting no to repeal while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. abortionism must not be allowed to take hold of our country.
    david75 wrote: »
    To be honest I can see this kind of faith based preaching and threatening instigating people to vote in favour of the referendum.
    It’s counter productive.

    that won't happen. normal people don't suddenly change their minds on an issue because of something they don't agree with anyway. if people are suddenly going to vote yes because of faith based preaching, in reality they were going to vote yes all along but were afraid to say so.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    To be honest I feel like there should be no referendum. We should just scrap the 8th without putting into the people.


    that would be unconstitutional. modifications to the constitution require referendum.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1206
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Well it had no place being put into the constitution at all. Only way we can change that is referendum sadly.


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  • #1207
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Also Christians voting yes can do so with the knowledge that its what their god would want. The Christian god wants people to have the power to choose.

    So surely while it can be looked at as a test for each individual who thinks about an abortion. It is not against any belief to vote yes. It's just against the beliefs to actually have one.

    God wants his children to have the freedom to choose for themselves does he not?


  • #1208
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    end of the road wrote:
    one does not have the right to kill the unborn unless it is in extreme circumstances.


    But that's the issue. Right now you can't kill the unborn even in extreme circumstances.

    In fact if the unborn is a still birth the mother still has to carry it until birth. This puts her in extreme risk of course.

    Wouldn't it be better to have the option and not need it rather than need it and not have it?


  • #1209
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    We may be surprised. Just reading that One of the largest yes voting demographics in marriage equality were the over 60s&70s. That’s a head scratcher. Didn’t know that


  • #1210
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,855 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no tangible proof the majority believe what you claim. opinion poles are only opinion and only survey a certain amount of people.
    if the majority actually do believe in removing the rights that the unborn have then that view must not be respected and must be ignored. one does not have the right to kill the unborn unless it is in extreme circumstances.



    it is perfectly right that those who disagree with abortion on demand will vote, and vote against repeal, while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. ireland would become a hugely grown up nation by voting no to repeal while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. abortionism must not be allowed to take hold of our country.



    that won't happen. normal people don't suddenly change their minds on an issue because of something they don't agree with anyway. if people are suddenly going to vote yes because of faith based preaching, in reality they were going to vote yes all along but were afraid to say so.




    that would be unconstitutional. modifications to the constitution require referendum.

    So you dont believe in a free domocraric society? Some "republican" you turned out to be :rolleyes:


  • #1211
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    end of the road wrote:
    it is perfectly right that those who disagree with abortion on demand will vote, and vote against repeal, while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. ireland would become a hugely grown up nation by voting no to repeal while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. abortionism must not be allowed to take hold of our country.


    For what it's worth I would hate to see abortion on demand. But the option needs to exist and the first chance people get, (many) will vote to repeal straight away.


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  • #1212
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    A woman has to consider her eternal destiny. "Do not fear him who can kill the body and then do no more. Rather fear Him who can throw both body and soul into hell"

    Pretty sure by your logic that anyone who voted in favour of marriage equality is already doomed anyway.


  • #1213
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    david75 wrote:
    We may be surprised. Just reading that One of the largest yes voting demographics in marriage equality were the over 60s&70s. That’s a head scratcher. Didn’t know that


    I think a lot of Christians will vote for abortion. Most people despite religious beliefs, understand the need for it. They may not agree with on demand abortion but they certainly understand how serious it is


  • #1214
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    Mr.H wrote: »
    To be honest I feel like there should be no referendum. We should just scrap the 8th without putting into the people.

    I can't say I agree with that comment. If the politicians can alter the constitution as they see fit, then all sorts of changes can be implemented on the population. Just some examples...

    1). Constitutional property rights,
    2). Neutrality, a war could be declared, conscription introduced and the younger generation set off to their deaths etc.

    It's all happened before in other nations, resulting in great human suffering.

    The Nazi Party changed the German constitution so that people became the property of the state. Therefore the state had full authority to do what it wanted with it's property. People sent of to concentration camps etc.


  • #1215
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,569 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is no tangible proof the majority believe what you claim. opinion poles are only opinion and only survey a certain amount of people.

    Its more proof then you can show for wanting to keep the 8th right now
    if the majority actually do believe in removing the rights that the unborn have then that view must not be respected and must be ignored. one does not have the right to kill the unborn unless it is in extreme circumstances.

    Wow,
    Did you just state that the referendum outcome should be ignored and people's democratic vote should be ignored? Seriously?

    I'm sorry, we';re not some sort of religious dictatorship here.

    If people vote to repeal the 8th inline with polls then that view MUST be respected.


    ireland would become a hugely grown up nation by voting no to repeal while the threat of legislating for abortion on demand is on the table. abortionism must not be allowed to take hold of our country.

    So we're a grown up country by continuing to ignore women's bodily integrity?

    Thats like claiming if we voted against marriage equality we would be a progressive country, you are having a laugh.

    The very fact that you have suggested that the ref outcome should be ignored should what an utterly despicable individual you are.

    It appears you think you know better then everyone else and as such their democratic rights should be ignored.

    You disgust me.


  • #1216
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,510 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Also Christians voting yes can do so with the knowledge that its what their god would want. The Christian god wants people to have the power to choose.

    So surely while it can be looked at as a test for each individual who thinks about an abortion. It is not against any belief to vote yes. It's just against the beliefs to actually have one.

    God wants his children to have the freedom to choose for themselves does he not?


    from my limited knowledge of christianity, the christian god disagrees with the killing of the unborn, via the thou shall not kill command. so voting yes to repeal which would allow unrestricted and on demand abortion would go against god's word in my view.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    But that's the issue. Right now you can't kill the unborn even in extreme circumstances.

    In fact if the unborn is a still birth the mother still has to carry it until birth. This puts her in extreme risk of course.

    Wouldn't it be better to have the option and not need it rather than need it and not have it?

    no . i cannot vote repeal to allow abortion in extreme circumstances if it allows abortion on demand as well. i believe the existing laws which allow for abortion in extreme circumstances could be extended to cover more circumstances and that should be done, meaning that necessary abortions could be covered, and then more people could vote to repeal the 8th. those who want an abortion outside extreme circumstances can avail of it in the uk.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    I think a lot of Christians will vote for abortion. Most people despite religious beliefs, understand the need for it. They may not agree with on demand abortion but they certainly understand how serious it is

    from the ones i have spoken to, they understand the need for it in extreme circumstances such as a threat of permanent injury or disability to the mother, a threat to the life of the mother, or cases where the baby cannot be caried to term or will not live to term. however they don't see the need for unrestricted and on demand abortion and i agree with them, there is no need for abortion on demand but a want for it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1217
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Isn’t it just as well we aren’t having a referendum on abortion on demand.

    A fact you seem to be completely allergic to, end of the road.


  • #1218
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,510 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Its more proof then you can show for wanting to keep the 8th right now



    Wow,
    Did you just state that the referendum outcome should be ignored and people's democratic vote should be ignored? Seriously?

    I'm sorry, we';re not some sort of religious dictatorship here.

    If people vote to repeal the 8th inline with polls then that view MUST be respected.





    So we're a grown up country by continuing to ignore women's bodily integrity?

    Thats like claiming if we voted against marriage equality we would be a progressive country, you are having a laugh.

    The very fact that you have suggested that the ref outcome should be ignored should what an utterly despicable individual you are.

    It appears you think you know better then everyone else and as such their democratic rights should be ignored.

    You disgust me.

    the unborn must continue to have the rights they do. anything less will regress this country. marriage equality was very progressive, unrestricted and on demand abortion which will allow for the killing of the unborn without good reason is regressive.
    that's why my suggestion of only allowing abortion in extreme circumstances is the best one, those who genuinely need an abortion will be able to access it. i don't care if i disgust you, i'm against the killing of the unborn outside extreme circumstances, that is the right belief to hold. we condemn the killing of children after they are born, it doesn't suddenly become okay before they are born.
    david75 wrote: »
    Isn’t it just as well we aren’t having a referendum on abortion on demand.

    A fact you seem to be completely allergic to, end of the road.

    i'm not allergic to that fact at all. i have even stated that technically it isn't what the referendum is about. however, the plan is to legislate for unrestricted and on demand abortion up until 12 weeks should the 8th be repealed, and that is why it comes into this debate and is likely to be an issue in terms of getting support for repeal.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1219
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    david75 wrote: »
    Isn’t it just as well we aren’t having a referendum on abortion on demand.

    A fact you seem to be completely allergic to, end of the road.

    It appears that the Referendum will be to remove all restrictions on abortion whatsoever from the Constitution, and to give the Oireachtas the power to legislate whatever it wants concerning abortion (including abortion on demand if it chooses).

    I think anyone claiming that this will not result in abortion on demand sooner or later is either extremely naive or extremely devious.


  • #1220
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    ‘That is the right belief to hold’.

    Our opinions and beliefs have no place over a woman’s health and personal rights to bodily autonomy.

    No place whatsoever.


  • #1221
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    david75 wrote: »
    ‘That is the right belief to hold’.

    Our opinions and beliefs have no place over a woman’s health and personal rights to bodily autonomy.

    No place whatsoever.

    And do our opinions and beliefs have any place over a child's health and personal right to life?


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  • #1222
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    david75 wrote:
    Our opinions and beliefs have no place over a woman’s health and personal rights to bodily autonomy.

    A woman's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.


  • #1223
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Nick Park wrote: »
    It appears that the Referendum will be to remove all restrictions on abortion whatsoever from the Constitution, and to give the Oireachtas the power to legislate whatever it wants concerning abortion (including abortion on demand if it chooses).

    I think anyone claiming that this will not result in abortion on demand sooner or later is either extremely naive or extremely devious.


    I don’t know how much attention you pay to the news.

    There is zero political will to introduce abortion on demand.

    Only today leo gave the most weakest possible statement saying he will campaign for the referendum to pass but is nott himself pro choice

    The man is a doctor for crying out loud.

    He basically knows the country is divided on this and is playing politics by not nailing his colours to the mast. You can be sure If there was a clear majority indicator that we were for or against it you know he’d pick whichever one was suitable for him. He’s a coward.


    But nowhere not one place have I seen it reported it’s about abortion on demand

    It isn’t even in the table.

    The replacing legislation has t even begun to be written yet.


    So frankly you’re talking out of your behind repeatedly saying it is about that

    You’re the only one saying it. The entire country has t even mentioned it.


  • #1224
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Nick Park wrote: »
    And do our opinions and beliefs have any place over a child's health and personal right to life?

    A child’s yes.

    A foetus is not a child.


  • #1225
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    A woman's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.


    No it’s not. Especially not atheist women or Jewish women of Muslim women or Protestant women.


  • #1226
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Nick Park wrote: »
    And do our opinions and beliefs have any place over a child's health and personal right to life?


    Come to think on it no our opinions and beliefs don’t have say over a child’s health either. Nor should it.
    Look at the faiths that won’t allow blood transfusions for their sick?
    Kids have died cos their parents wouldn’t let them have organ donations etc.

    Moral of the story?
    inserting faith of any kind onto someone else’s health and well being is flat out wrong.


  • #1227
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    david75 wrote: »
    A child’s yes.

    A foetus is not a child.

    Oh the irony! That is your belief and opinion, is it not?


  • #1228
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    david75 wrote: »
    Come to think on it no our opinions and beliefs don’t have say over a child’s health either. Nor should it.
    Look at the faiths that won’t allow blood transfusions for their sick?
    Kids have died cos their parents wouldn’t let them have organ donations etc.

    Moral of the story?
    inserting faith of any kind onto someone else’s health and well being is flat out wrong.

    Except when your faith is in your subjective opinion that a foetus is not a child?

    You really can't see the hypocrisy in your statements?


  • #1229
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Nick Park wrote: »
    Except when your faith is in your subjective opinion that a foetus is not a child?

    You really can't see the hypocrisy in your statements?

    A foetus isn’t a child though. Are you confused about that? It would seem so.


  • #1230
    Nick Park
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭Nick Park


    david75 wrote: »
    I don’t know how much attention you pay to the news.

    There is zero political will to introduce abortion on demand.

    Only today leo gave the most weakest possible statement saying he will campaign for the referendum to pass but is nott himself pro choice

    The man is a doctor for crying out loud.

    He basically knows the country is divided on this and is playing politics by not nailing his colours to the mast. You can be sure If there was a clear majority indicator that we were for or against it you know he’d pick whichever one was suitable for him. He’s a coward.


    But nowhere not one place have I seen it reported it’s about abortion on demand

    It isn’t even in the table.

    The replacing legislation has t even begun to be written yet.


    So frankly you’re talking out of your behind repeatedly saying it is about that

    You’re the only one saying it. The entire country has t even mentioned it.

    So, your argument is that we should abandon our Constitutional say on the matter, and instead hand it to people who, in your own words, are cowards who will take any position based on whether it suits them rather than on matters of principle.

    Do you see why some of us might find that argument less than convincing?


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  • #1231
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,510 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    ‘That is the right belief to hold’.

    Our opinions and beliefs have no place over a woman’s health and personal rights to bodily autonomy.

    No place whatsoever.


    agreed. however they do have a place in insuring protections and rights for the unborn, preventing them from being killed unnecessarily for the greater good of society and humanity.
    david75 wrote: »
    A child’s yes.

    A foetus is not a child.

    it will be, so the same stance for born children applies to a foetus, which will become a child quite a time before it is actually born.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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