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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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Comments

  • #1142
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    nothing is being exported. people are availing of something they want elsewhere. lots of things people want won't be availible in the country.

    Please provide your proof that abortion services aren't needed in this country.

    Saying "its just a fact" doesn't count as evidence.


  • #1143
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    nobody has shown evidence for a need for abortion on demand in ireland, they have shown opinion pieces to show a want for it. a want is not a need. i already agree with abortion in extreme circumstances and believe such services should be provided.
    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    supporting abortion on demand is eliberal. it goes against everything a real liberal would stand for. i am a real liberal and the killing of the unborn, unquestioned and on demand, is not something i would ever support or vote for.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Please provide your proof that abortion services aren't needed in this country.

    Saying "its just a fact" doesn't count as evidence.

    i can and i have. my evidence is people are going to england to procure abortion on demand.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1144
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1145
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #1146
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    end of the road wrote: »
    nobody has shown evidence for a need for abortion on demand in ireland, they have shown opinion pieces to show a want for it. a want is not a need. i already agree with abortion in extreme circumstances and believe such services should be provided.

    In the UK it took women dieing from trying to do their own abortions with coat hangers etc and back street abortions that took the law to change, of course this is less likely to happen in Ireland because women CAN and DO travel to the UK.

    Perhaps for evidence the pro-life groups should lobby to ban women traveling so Ireland can also have deaths, then you'll have all the evidence you need.

    That sound good?

    Of course in the meantime you can say that the evidence is the fact that women travel and without which they would take more risks, you could also argue that right now women taking abortion pills without any medical supervision is also dangerous.


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  • #1147
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,903 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    the question itself never mentioned abortion on request. so for all we know it could be abortion in limited circumstances they are in favour of.

    As per previous answers, it did and they do.
    end of the road wrote: »
    most of the people who claim to be christian in ireland actually aren't anyway so it cannot be gauged how many actual christians would be in favour of abortion on demand.

    Wow. So, in your opinion, how many actual Christians are there in this country, and what exactly gives you the right to say that someone who considers themselves Christian is not actually Christian? You realise that if your statement above were true, Ireland would no longer be a Christian majority country. You are also aware that freedom of religious expression is broadly accepted as a basic human right?


  • #1148
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    smacl wrote: »
    Ireland would no longer be a Christian majority country.?

    It's not, the fact that the majority of people have zero issue with condoms, divorce, marriage equality shows the people that identify as catholic on the census certainly do not agree with the Vaticans beliefs and teachings

    Catholic in name only, but the majority are bouncy castle Catholics


  • #1149
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    smacl wrote: »
    Wow. So, in your opinion, how many actual Christians are there in this country, and what exactly gives you the right to say that someone who considers themselves Christian is not actually Christian? You realise that if your statement above were true, Ireland would no longer be a Christian majority country. You are also aware that freedom of religious expression is broadly accepted as a basic human right?

    this is really for a different thread but in truth ireland actually isn't a majority christian country and hasn't been for a good while. people may put down that they are catholic on the census but they are not truely catholic. they have little to nothing to do with the teachings of catholicism, and where they do, they are just going through the motions. i'm non-religious myself but i find such behaviour disrespectful and offensive. if one isn't catholic, that's fine, but be honest about it instead of using religion when it suits.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1150
    ABC101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,118 ✭✭✭ABC101


    smacl wrote: »
    Of course, my point is simply that at what point in the process of gestation a human foetus becomes a person is probably the more important question in this debate. The RCC would have its flock believe this happens at conception, other Christian traditions would have it at implantation, other Christians who are in favour of liberalising abortion law would clearly have it much later on. It is worth remembering that the vast majority of people in this country consider themselves Christian, and very many of them (I'd guess the majority at this point) are in favour of liberalising abortion. Assuming they're not murderous, it would seem that the pro-life rhetoric holds little sway with many Irish Christians.

    Sorry for the delay in getting back, tied up at my end etc.

    We won't know for sure until the results of the referendum are in. However if 82% (for example) of the population of Ireland profess themselves to be Christian or RCC, then one would expect 82% of the referendum result to reject abortion.

    But as we both know, people don't necessarily think / act like that. It is entirely possible that 82% profess to be Christian, and yet abortion could be legalised in Ireland by a high percentage of the electorate.

    Humans are capable of hypocrisy / double think / double speak etc. Believing themselves to be good at "X" when in actual fact they could be far from it.

    My opinion of it is that you cannot consider oneself to be a follower of Jesus Christ if you support abortion. It is a contradiction in terms.


  • #1151
    Kiwi in IE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    J C wrote: »
    Abortion is very different to the Same Sex Marriage issue. Abortion is a matter of life and death.
    Same Sex Marriage is allowing consenting same-sex couples to enter into state approved legally binding agreements on how they conduct their personal relationships ... in common with all other consenting mixed-sex couples ... it was a matter of equality ... and I (and most other Christians) have no issue with that.
    The Same-sex marriage amendment conferred rights that other people already enjoyed on other people who didn't enjoy them ...
    ... the removal of the 8th Amendment will remove rights already conferred and enjoyed by unborn children ... it's actually something like trying to reverse the same-sex marriage amendment !!!

    Wow JC, you have really changed your attitude toward marriage and equal rights, since days of the marriage referendum! Well done, that is an astounding turnaround! We told you the sky wouldn’t fall in didn’t we! Same goes for the demise of the 8th Ammendment!


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  • #1152
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,805 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Well based on reports from North America, there is a similiarity of progressive targeting people you support traditional marriage and those who do not support Abortion. The societal impact from these will take time to unwind, just like Europe it seems.


  • #1153
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Manach wrote: »
    Well based on reports from North America, there is a similiarity of progressive targeting people you support traditional marriage and those who do not support Abortion. The societal impact from these will take time to unwind, just like Europe it seems.



    Again. Using America as a metric is utterly ridiculous. It’s a completely divided and polarised situation featuring two competent dofferent extremes.
    And the religious end of the extreme isn’t and has never covered itself in glory.


    *bonus point. ‘North America refers to the United States AND Canada. Rhe attitudes to abortion in both countries could not be more different


  • #1154
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Wow JC, you have really changed your attitude toward marriage and equal rights, since days of the marriage referendum! Well done, that is an astounding turnaround! We told you the sky wouldn’t fall in didn’t we! Same goes for the demise of the 8th Ammendment!


    Glad someone else spotted that.
    He’s not hypocrite. We’re all allowed change our minds.

    Like he will after this referendum is passed. Eyeroll


  • #1155
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Wow JC, you have really changed your attitude toward marriage and equal rights, since days of the marriage referendum! Well done, that is an astounding turnaround! We told you the sky wouldn’t fall in didn’t we! Same goes for the demise of the 8th Ammendment!


    there is a massive difference between 2 people being allowed to get married who once weren't allowed to, and the allowing of the killing of the unborn without good reason.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1156
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    end of the road wrote: »
    there is a massive difference between 2 people being allowed to get married who once weren't allowed to, and the allowing of the killing of the unborn without good reason.



    Not really. They’ve a lot in common actually.

    The church interfered in both referendums and shot themselves in the foot by doing so and lost by being so involved.


  • #1157
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Ok. If you say so


  • #1158
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    Not really. They’ve a lot in common actually.

    The church interfered in both referendums and shot themselves in the foot by doing so and lost by being so involved.

    they have nothing in common. gay marriage is supported by most people, others are even simply okay with it happening even if they don't agree with it themselves.
    unrestricted and on demand abortion on the other hand is the worst act known to man. it targets the most vunerable in society, the unborn, killing them for no legitimate reason.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1159
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    end of the road wrote: »
    they have nothing in common. gay marriage is supported by most people, others are even simply okay with it even if they don't agree with it.
    unrestricted and on demand abortion on the other hand is the worst act known to man. it targets the most vunerable in society, the unborn, killing them for no legitimate reason.


    Read your post again.

    Others are ok with it even with it.

    Are you even alive?


    Once again.

    On demand abortion isn’t what the referendum is about.

    ‘Worst act known to man’

    Can you back that statement up? With any verifiable evidence?


    ‘Targets the most vulnerable in our society’

    Ehhh to be part of a society you have to be in a society and that means being a walking talking functioning member of society. Aka a human being.

    A foetus is none of the above. It is none of those things. A tadpole is not a frog. A chick is not a bird. A maggot is not a fly.

    Do you understand that much?


  • #1160
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    david75 wrote: »
    Read your post again.

    Others are ok with it even with it.

    Are you even alive?


    Once again.

    On demand abortion isn’t what the referendum is about.

    ‘Worst act known to man’

    Can you back that statement up? With any verifiable evidence?


    ‘Targets the most vulnerable in our society’

    Ehhh to be part of a society you have to be in a society and that means being a walking talking functioning member of society. Aka a human being.

    A foetus is none of the above. It is none of those things. A tadpole is not a frog. A chick is not a bird. A maggot is not a fly.

    Do you understand that much?


    the unborn are human beings. the unborn are part of society. one of the things often used to try and get support and justification for killing human beings is the tactic of dehumanization.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1161
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    end of the road wrote: »
    the unborn are human beings. the unborn are part of society. one of the things often used to try and get support and justification for killing human beings is the tactic of dehumanization.

    Sorry but for a majority of this country the rights of the women simply take priority, polls show this time and time again

    Majority see the women's rights in cases of rape or incest are way above a fetus. Majority see a women's wish to have an abortion in cases of FFA should be respected. We should also never ever ever have a repeat of Miss P case and that case was caused by the 8th existing.

    Overall the 8th must be repealed in order for the majority's views to be respected.

    As yourself this, if your wife, sister, cousin was pregnant from rape and she wanted the rapists fetus out of her. Are you honestly saying you would force her to go to term against her wishes and ignoring the mental health issues you will create by putting her through such a continued violation of her body against her wishes?

    What if she imported some abortion pills and took them (as many women do) are you going to report her to the Gardai since she broke the law?


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  • #1162
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Cabaal wrote:
    Sorry but for a majority of this country the rights of the women simply take priority, polls show this time and time again


    Just because polls say it doesn't mean it's right.


  • #1163
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    Just because polls say it doesn't mean it's right.

    Same argument put forward during the marriage ref,

    At the end of the day if a christian doesn't want an abortion when the 8th is repealed then the solution is very simply...they don't have one.


    Given you support the 8th so much, then the same question applys to you also. if your wife, sister, cousin was pregnant from rape and she wanted the rapists fetus out of her. Are you honestly saying you would force her to go to term against her wishes and ignoring the mental health issues you will create by putting her through such a continued violation of her body against her wishes?

    What if she imported some abortion pills and took them (as many women do) are you going to report her to the Gardai since she broke the law?


  • #1164
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Cabaal wrote:
    At the end of the day if a christian doesn't want an abortion when the 8th is repealed then the solution is very simply...they don't have one.


    No, they have to vote against.


  • #1165
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Religion has just place in the debate. They lost their right to talk about kids when they raped them.

    Disgusting that the church ever had a say in a countries laws.


  • #1166
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    No, they have to vote against.

    People have freewill, they can vote as they so wish.

    You cann't push your religious beliefs on people that do not subscribe to your beliefs.

    Do you think it would make sense for the views Jehovah’s Witnesses who don't believe in blood transfusions to be applied to anyone that is not a Jehovah’s Witness? Thus banning them from getting a blood transfusion also.

    How about Jewish people demanding that every boy regardless of religions has a circumcision?


  • #1167
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Cabaal wrote:
    You cann't push your religious beliefs on people that do not subscribe to your beliefs.


    That's true. Everyone is free to make up their own minds. However, whatever choice you make has consequences.


  • #1168
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Mr.H wrote:
    Religion has just place in the debate. They lost their right to talk about kids when they raped them.


    What percentage of priests abused children? What percentage of doctors abused children? What percentage of manual workers abused children?


  • #1169
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,854 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »
    That's true. Everyone is free to make up their own minds. However, whatever choice you make has consequences.

    I prefer to make a choice that could help a woman in need rather than a choice that could mentally and physically scar a woman.


  • #1170
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote:
    I prefer to make a choice that could help a woman in need rather than a choice that could mentally and physically scar a woman.


    A woman's body is not hers. It is the property of the Holy Spirit.


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  • #1171
    ouxbbkqtswdfaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭ouxbbkqtswdfaw


    Did you ever hear that the Kingdom of God is within you?


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