Are you happy with the upkeep of your area?

hardybuck · 22-01-2018 3:34pm #1

I'm wondering if it's just me or if other people have noticed similar issues.

As someone who's living outside of Waterford coming home periodically, certain things stand out to me every time I come back. It's very obvious that a lot of work has gone into the areas of the city centre which are directed towards tourists - badly overdue and looks like a pretty good job done overall.

However, it seems as though the subarbs in around my neck of the woods are in absolute bits!

A few things I've noticed:

- Very sporadic availability of public bins. I went for one walk of an hour with my dogs, carrying dog litter, and didn't pass a single bin, in a very busy area with lots of footfall, including children

- A huge volume of dog litter and general litter - probably due to lack of bins

- Saw two places which were very badly littered due to fly tipping

- Footpaths literally crumbling away under foot

- Green spaces (trees, grass banks etc) not being maintained. Incidentially I went to the Council website and they haven't even populated that section of their website: http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/departments/environment/parks-openspaces.htm

Has anyone else noticed similar stuff or is it just me!?

Harry Palmr · 22-01-2018 4:51pm

Council have no money for anything. The roads are in a terrible state around the town and the fix is a shovel of hot tar.

BBM77 · 22-01-2018 5:16pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm wondering if it's just me or if other people have noticed similar issues.

As someone who's living outside of Waterford coming home periodically, certain things stand out to me every time I come back. It's very obvious that a lot of work has gone into the areas of the city centre which are directed towards tourists - badly overdue and looks like a pretty good job done overall.

However, it seems as though the subarbs in around my neck of the woods are in absolute bits!

A few things I've noticed:

- Very sporadic availability of public bins. I went for one walk of an hour with my dogs, carrying dog litter, and didn't pass a single bin, in a very busy area with lots of footfall, including children

- A huge volume of dog litter and general litter - probably due to lack of bins

- Saw two places which were very badly littered due to fly tipping

- Footpaths literally crumbling away under foot

- Green spaces (trees, grass banks etc) not being maintained. Incidentially I went to the Council website and they haven't even populated that section of their website: http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/departments/environment/parks-openspaces.htm

Has anyone else noticed similar stuff or is it just me!?

I think it is more to do with attitude.

hardybuck · 22-01-2018 5:24pm

BBM77 wrote: »

I think it is more to do with attitude.

Attitude definitely, but a little bit of behavioural economics, i.e. offer a bin to put it in, would definitely help.

On a similar walk in my area of Dublin (which would have roughly the same demographic) I'd be passing one every 10 mins walking. They seem to offset the cost of them by putting some advertising on the side of it.

BamesJond · 22-01-2018 5:38pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Council have no money for anything. The roads are in a terrible state around the town and the fix is a shovel of hot tar.

This is a huge problem. Roads all over the city are in bits no matter what direction your travelling. Disgraceful surfaces even on "newer" streets. If annoying to locals when travelling, it must be noticed by people visiting the city aswell. Makes the place feel cheap.

Wanderer78 · 22-01-2018 7:43pm

'expansionary fiscal contraction' id imagine:rolleyes:

TinaW · 22-01-2018 7:59pm

There is litter everywhere I look lately.... A lot of people are just too lazy to put things in a bin or they just don't care. Back of Tesco (Poleberry) there is cans littered around with recycling bins two metres away!! Up at the old glass factory on the Cork Road there is TONS of rubbish over the fence. It's really starting to bother me how little people care about the place they are living

Deise Vu · 23-01-2018 4:11pm

I don't think it is as bad as ye are making out, otherwise Waterford wouldn't be topping the IBAL anti-litter league for major urban areas. I think the City Council has been very pro-active when it comes to cleaning up other people's mess (fly-tipping on approach roads; continual maintenance during festivals etc). I have even seen them hoovering up leaves on the Tramore Road as far as Katie Reillys.

The problem with providing bins is that there is a sizeable minority who think a bin means: "dump anything you like in the immediate vicinity, we'll be around to collect it." We really could do with with a load of litter wardens on a percentage of the fines. They would make a profit we could use to improve public spaces.

As for dogs (and cats for that matter, one of the neighbours has cats that think my garden is ideal for depositing their crap), I would make chipping and the provision of a DNA sample compulsory (I don't care what that would cost - if you can't afford it, don't get a dog). Any dog found unchipped gets a bullet, any crap found on the road gets a €1,000 fine. We would soon find out who really loves their dog.

hardybuck · 23-01-2018 5:09pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I don't think it is as bad as ye are making out, otherwise Waterford wouldn't be topping the IBAL anti-litter league for major urban areas. I think the City Council has been very pro-active when it comes to cleaning up other people's mess (fly-tipping on approach roads; continual maintenance during festivals etc). I have even seen them hoovering up leaves on the Tramore Road as far as Katie Reillys.

The problem with providing bins is that there is a sizeable minority who think a bin means: "dump anything you like in the immediate vicinity, we'll be around to collect it." We really could do with with a load of litter wardens on a percentage of the fines. They would make a profit we could use to improve public spaces.

As for dogs (and cats for that matter, one of the neighbours has cats that think my garden is ideal for depositing their crap), I would make chipping and the provision of a DNA sample compulsory (I don't care what that would cost - if you can't afford it, don't get a dog). Any dog found unchipped gets a bullet, any crap found on the road gets a €1,000 fine. We would soon find out who really loves their dog.

I did note that Waterford definitely gets consistently good reviews on the IBAL surveys etc., but we're talking about the subarbs here. Do those areas get included in the assessments?

Do you think we have enough bins? I think we should be aiming for more than one every few miles, which is what you'll get in certain routes around the city subarbs.

I think the DNA testing of dogs is done in Seville, I'm not sure if that's too heavy handed, but nobody wants log litter on the streets anymore. If you were going that route, you'd have to do it for cats, horses, cattle, so I'm not sure if that's feasible.

Deise Vu · 23-01-2018 5:21pm

hardybuck wrote: »

I did note that Waterford definitely gets consistently good reviews on the IBAL surveys etc., but we're talking about the subarbs here. Do those areas get included in the assessments?

Do you think we have enough bins? I think we should be aiming for more than one every few miles, which is what you'll get in certain routes around the city subarbs.

I think the DNA testing of dogs is done in Seville, I'm not sure if that's too heavy handed, but nobody wants log litter on the streets anymore. If you were going that route, you'd have to do it for cats, horses, cattle, so I'm not sure if that's feasible.

Suburbs absolutely do get included in the IBAL survey. They specifically mentioned one blackspot in Ballybeg (as well as praising other parts of Ballybeg) in their last report.

As mentioned in my earlier post, a lot of people think bins mean you can put anything you like in, on or around them and thus can actually lead to littering. I think the approach, whether you agree it is practical or not, is: "your rubbish; your problem."

As regards DNA, it might be just me but I don't see a lot of cowshít or horseshít around town. I would definitely be in favour of including cats in any purge against animals.

hardybuck · 23-01-2018 6:00pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

Suburbs absolutely do get included in the IBAL survey. They specifically mentioned one blackspot in Ballybeg (as well as praising other parts of Ballybeg) in their last report.

As mentioned in my earlier post, a lot of people think bins mean you can put anything you like in, on or around them and thus can actually lead to littering. I think the approach, whether you agree it is practical or not, is: "your rubbish; your problem."

As regards DNA, it might be just me but I don't see a lot of cowshít or horseshít around town. I would definitely be in favour of including cats in any purge against animals.

With regard to your last comment, to make that enforceable, you'd need either a bylaw or legislation. I'm not sure if you could confine that to one particular area. So you might need to consider marts, places where there is meat processing etc. Certainly in places like Killarney they did have a big problem with horse manure.

Thanks for the confirmation of where the survey covers.

All I can say is that several locations were badly littered over the Christmas period. Maybe the Council workers were all on holidays. But if you have significant volumes of kids walking home from school, and people walking home with takeaways from pubs, and there is no bins, rubbish is going on the ground.

Johnboy1951 · 23-01-2018 7:44pm

I don't see any problem with chipping dogs & cats, and dealing with any strays found.
As regards marts & cattle etc ..... these are not pets and in any case are tagged so are identifiable.
Horses also, when kept by urban dwellers, or who wish to enter urban areas regularly should also be chipped.
Again I see no real problem with doing so.

It all comes down to how well we want to manage what is now a serious problem in some areas.

hardybuck · 23-01-2018 8:43pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't see any problem with chipping dogs & cats, and dealing with any strays found.
As regards marts & cattle etc ..... these are not pets and in any case are tagged so are identifiable.
Horses also, when kept by urban dwellers, or who wish to enter urban areas regularly should also be chipped.
Again I see no real problem with doing so.

It all comes down to how well we want to manage what is now a serious problem in some areas.

Just on my way home earlier in Dublin. The area all around here is absolutely spotless. Zero rubbish and rarely ever animal mess.

On a 5 minute stroll I passed 4 dog walkers, one of whom was actually picking up mess as I passed them, and they were about 5 mins away from a bin.

Maybe people respect the area better here, but I think by making bins available you're encouraging better behaviour.

mooseknunkle · 23-01-2018 10:55pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I would make chipping and the provision of a DNA sample compulsory (I don't care what that would cost - if you can't afford it, don't get a dog). Any dog found unchipped gets a bullet, any crap found on the road gets a €1,000 fine. We would soon find out who really loves their dog.

They should make it compulsory for kids to be chipped too and if you cant afford it and the kid is found unchipped they get a bullet :rolleyes:

Deise Vu · 24-01-2018 10:15am

mooseknunkle wrote: »

They should make it compulsory for kids to be chipped too and if you cant afford it and the kid is found unchipped they get a bullet :rolleyes:

Yeah because Kids are the sames as dogs. Good point.

kuang1 · 24-01-2018 11:49am

hardybuck wrote: »

I think by making bins available you're encouraging better behaviour.

You're 100% right.
I frequently walk the dunmore road & williamstown road loop with my dog.
As an example, on the williamstown road between the Gaelscoil in Ballygunner, and the ring road roundabout by the solas centre, there is 1 bin.
On the dunmore road I typically end up using the bins at the petrol station opposite collins avenue or outside Londis (beside oscars). (i.e. non-council maintained bins.)

I don't think we necessarily need shedloads more bins, but a few would be very much appreciated.
(And I acknowledge that every bin requires maintenance so it's not just as simple as erecting bins all over the shop, there is significant cost involved. I presume this is why there are no bins along the greenway other than at entry/exit points.)

As for the argument that "Oh if you have more bins people just end up dumping bags of rubbish beside them!"
Please.
Where is this a common occurence in suburbia?

Max Powers · 24-01-2018 12:53pm

Single biggest thing needed is a change of attitude by public...my waste,I deal with it responsibly, if that means putting it in handy bin, great, if no bin, bring it home to your bin, it's your waste after all. Recycling the same, we need to do it properly and stop thinking of every excuse going, all the info is there, laziness is Id guess is biggest hindrance.in my view, there should be no need for any bins outside of city centre, shops, public buildings and schools.

Regarding where I live, there is often dumping and, the council must come by regularly as the offending items never stay for too long, could be a couple days, maybe a week but in general, it's gone reasonably quick. Small enough pothole appeared recently too, say 30cm by 30cm, that was filled within a week or two also, certainly before it became big. There are also a few people in my neighborhood, including myself who will occasionally pick up some rubbish, wrapper, can, etc left outside house.It all helps.

debok · 24-01-2018 12:54pm

As for the argument that "Oh if you have more bins people just end up dumping bags of rubbish beside them!"
Please.
Where is this a common occurence in suburbia?[/quote]

This happens alot at the bin by the bus stop at grantstown park. At least once a week there is black sacks left beside it.

kuang1 · 24-01-2018 1:03pm

debok wrote: »

This happens alot at the bin by the bus stop at grantstown park. At least once a week there is black sacks left beside it.

I've yet to see that but must keep an eye out for it.

debok · 24-01-2018 1:06pm

kuang1 wrote: »

I've yet to see that but must keep an eye out for it.

Yeh i get first bus there every morning and regularly there's at least one bag. In saying that its usually gone by time I'm coming home so council must collect them fairly quickly.

kuang1 · 24-01-2018 1:08pm

Max Powers wrote: »

Single biggest thing needed is a change of attitude by public...my waste,I deal with it responsibly, if that means putting it in handy bin, great, if no bin, bring it home to your bin, it's your waste after all. Recycling the same, we need to do it properly and stop thinking of every excuse going, all the info is there, laziness is Id guess is biggest hindrance.in my view, there should be no need for any bins outside of city centre, shops, public buildings and schools.

Dunno if you travel much Max, but this ain't how it's done in other countries. (I'm thinking of North America and Europe).
The ideal is exactly as you say. Your rubbish, your onus.
Sadly that's not a realistic goal for the masses of today.
What helps to curtail bad rubbish behaviour is minimising the number of excuses people can use.
Provision of more bins ticks that box.

kuang1 · 24-01-2018 1:13pm

debok wrote: »

Yeh i get first bus there every morning and regularly there's at least one bag. In saying that its usually gone by time I'm coming home so council must collect them fairly quickly.

I guess the culprit(s) are highly unlikely to try to pull a stunt like that in daylight hours. Might explain why I haven't seen it.
I'm a big fan of Karma, so they'll get theirs in time I'm sure.

spankmemunkey · 24-01-2018 2:09pm

Bins should no longer be an option to pay for by households, the cost of waste should be deducted directly through taxes local taxes etc.

The idea of giving people the option to pay for waste removal is ludicrous that's one option but sure as soon as someone suggests it, it will be a case of oh Nanny state etc etc. Even at that every household should be registered with their local council in some form to prove that they are signed up to a waste provider using some sort of cross reference code.

I was told before that the lack of bins in Waterford was due to the fact that people fill them up with their own rubbish, even at that if you look at any bins out side shops they usually have those bars down the middle now so as you can only just about get your hand in with waste

Max Powers · 24-01-2018 3:06pm

kuang1 wrote: »

Dunno if you travel much Max, but this ain't how it's done in other countries. (I'm thinking of North America and Europe).
The ideal is exactly as you say. Your rubbish, your onus.
Sadly that's not a realistic goal for the masses of today.
What helps to curtail bad rubbish behaviour is minimising the number of excuses people can use.
Provision of more bins ticks that box.

Do American or other EU countries have more bins than us? I don't notice loads of bins when ever I traveled.One of the noticeably cleanest places I traveled around is Germany, they also have one of the highest recycling rates, this ain't because they have bins everywhere, it's because they buy into society stuff like that, act responsibly, like adults and it's not an issue for them.I'd guess many of these cleanest countries have implemented fines if people don't do what any normal Joe should do, they don't listen to the silly excuses about not having a bin every few hundred meters in a suburban area, etc.I recently listened to a podcast interview about their waste water treatment system in Germany, (exciting ey)the American chap asked him about things being put down toilet that shouldn't be, condoms, wet wipes, floss, etc and the German guy said, we just don't have an issue with that, the American couldn't believe it, again, they know what you are meant/not meant to do and they get on with it without the whinging about excuses and cop outs like we specialise at in this country.

Max Powers · 24-01-2018 3:11pm

spankmemunkey wrote: »

Bins should no longer be an option to pay for by households, the cost of waste should be deducted directly through taxes local taxes etc.

The idea of giving people the option to pay for waste removal is ludicrous that's one option but sure as soon as someone suggests it, it will be a case of oh Nanny state etc etc. Even at that every household should be registered with their local council in some form to prove that they are signed up to a waste provider using some sort of cross reference code.

I was told before that the lack of bins in Waterford was due to the fact that people fill them up with their own rubbish, even at that if you look at any bins out side shops they usually have those bars down the middle now so as you can only just about get your hand in with waste

Totally agree, should have to prove your waste is being disposed of properly.id guess same people who would give out about something like that would also be strongly out against publishing pictures of dumpers, like they did in Dublin last year.

Harry Palmr · 24-01-2018 4:54pm

Can anyone remember why waste collection was privatised?

Deise Vu · 24-01-2018 5:04pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Can anyone remember why waste collection was privatised?

Cough...Cough...don't go there.....public V private...cough .... Army lads cleaning the streets because the bin lads are on strike yet again??? ......

:o

hardybuck · 24-01-2018 6:19pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Can anyone remember why waste collection was privatised?

Many Councils were losing millions every year through unpaid charges. It was economically unsustainable for them to remain in the business.

The other side of the debate was bin waivers for people who it was deemed couldn't afford bin charges. I think the move away from public services was deemed to have been linked to an increase in fly tipping.

I suppose it really boils down to what side of the fence you're on - do you believe in privatisation or not. Do you think it's a good idea that publicly owned firms in transport, waste collection, health etc. are a good idea or not.

aziz · 24-01-2018 6:53pm

My neighbours have never put out a bin in the ten years I've been living beside them.the rubbish just accumulates in their back yard until the council from pressure from myself and other neighbours will get a team in to clear out and fumigate the house.
The last time it was done was about a year ago and two large skips were filled with over two hundred bags of rubbish.
I have complained to environmental health and they said that there is nothing they can do only to advise the council.

kayaksurfbum · 24-01-2018 7:04pm

Iv seen people in carrickpherish kick their rubbish out onto the road in sacks. The council are always up pretty quick to clean it up.

In the defence of the rubbish throwers their houses are on wheels so maybe they don't have a bin that can be collected!!!

It's a good thing the tax payer foots the bill for such polluters.

Wanderer78 · 24-01-2018 7:15pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Can anyone remember why waste collection was privatised?

neoliberial ideology mainly with its partner in crime, 'the market'!

Max Powers · 24-01-2018 11:20pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

neoliberial ideology mainly with its partner in crime, 'the market'!

Had to be neoliberalism again...nonsense
Nothing to do with loads of people not paying, private operators doing it more efficiently.

Wanderer78 · 25-01-2018 12:56pm

Max Powers wrote: »

Had to be neoliberalism again...nonsense
Nothing to do with loads of people not paying, private operators doing it more efficiently.

research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.

Deise Vu · 25-01-2018 1:56pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.

I hate to be your local grammar Nazi but is there any chance you could have another go at that sentence?

Wanderer78 · 25-01-2018 1:57pm

Deise Vu wrote: »

I hate to be your local grammar Nazi but is there any chance you could have another go at that sentence?

highly unlikely

Harry Palmr · 25-01-2018 2:31pm

I knew I shouldn't have asked! The bins should be funded from the property tax, after all the two are inextricably linked.

road_high · 25-01-2018 3:10pm

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I knew I shouldn't have asked! The bins should be funded from the property tax, after all the two are inextricably linked.

How so? The Property Tax is relatively little (477M Euro in 2017). There is absolutely no way there is enough revenue stream there to fund a bin service plus run the Local Authorities (which this doesn't fund either).
I'm very glad I pay privately for a reliable, efficient waste collection service.
I could only just imagine the strike ridden, Union infested joke of a "service" I would get if the LA's ran it.

Harry Palmr · 25-01-2018 4:19pm

road_high wrote: »

How so? The Property Tax is relatively little (477M Euro in 2017). There is absolutely no way there is enough revenue stream there to fund a bin service plus run the Local Authorities (which this doesn't fund either).
I'm very glad I pay privately for a reliable, efficient waste collection service.
I could only just imagine the strike ridden, Union infested joke of a "service" I would get if the LA's ran it.

Sorry I should have been clearer (twas a quickie on the phone) - obviously the property charge would need to go up to include refuse but then again I'd be one for proper local rates to be re-introduced.

Max Powers · 25-01-2018 4:49pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.

We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.

kuang1 · 25-01-2018 6:02pm

Max Powers wrote: »

We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.

And where shall we put your nonsense max?
In a plastic bag and leave it beside a bin in suburbia?

(Not in the city centre of course...only good things can happen there.
And it's only there that any council money or investment should go too lest we forget!)

Wanderer78 · 25-01-2018 8:17pm

Max Powers wrote: »

We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.

public banking info:
http://republicirelandbank.com/
http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org/

talking about creating money, you are aware this is exactly how the majority of money is created today, i.e. through the creation of loans by banks. the term magical money tree is regularly trotted out in these arguments, reality of money creation truly is magical! i have included a research paper from the bank of england that confirms this. the Bundesbank of Germany released a similar paper in 2017 confirming the findings from the boe paper.

a good site for more criticism of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

free parking and neoliberalism! more research is obviously required here!

even our own president understands the potential dangers of these issues

Max Powers · 26-01-2018 10:14am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

public banking info:
http://republicirelandbank.com/
http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org/

talking about creating money, you are aware this is exactly how the majority of money is created today, i.e. through the creation of loans by banks. the term magical money tree is regularly trotted out in these arguments, reality of money creation truly is magical! i have included a research paper from the bank of england that confirms this. the Bundesbank of Germany released a similar paper in 2017 confirming the findings from the boe paper.

a good site for more criticism of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

free parking and neoliberalism! more research is obviously required here!

even our own president understands the potential dangers of these issues

We've been over it already...banks don't just create money, it's borrowed/promised back, pretty sure even our central bank can't magic up money like you say without consequences/pay it back, you ignored all that, depositors money, start up capital, previously and again.you said it yourself in your post...creation of loans.it's pure and utter Nonsense to suggest overly simplified crap like creating our own bank and money like it's just an entry in a ledger and no bother after that.what's happened here is I suspect, you saw a YouTube of some credit union/bank created with a benefit of members/public ethos, however this institute was created with member capital or a loan to be paid back, the institute grew through investments and deposits.some of these investments may have been funded by loans to the institute, which will need to be paid back.No free Money for its members or the institute.

Wanderer78 · 26-01-2018 11:50am

Max Powers wrote: »

We've been over it already...banks don't just create money, it's borrowed/promised back, pretty sure even our central bank can't magic up money like you say without consequences/pay it back, you ignored all that, depositors money, start up capital, previously and again.you said it yourself in your post...creation of loans.it's pure and utter Nonsense to suggest overly simplified crap like creating our own bank and money like it's just an entry in a ledger and no bother after that.what's happened here is I suspect, you saw a YouTube of some credit union/bank created with a benefit of members/public ethos, however this institute was created with member capital or a loan to be paid back, the institute grew through investments and deposits.some of these investments may have been funded by loans to the institute, which will need to be paid back.No free Money for its members or the institute.

please read the paper, it is a peer reviewed paper, the paper shows that indeed, money is created by banks in form of loans, period! this can be done provided this bank fulfills the criteria set out by banking regulations such as the bis(bank of international settlements). this has been discussed in depth by other academics including steve keen, and other none academics including ellen brown and jim Richards. even germany has their own public bank called the sparkasse savings bank. again you re missing the point of how money is actually created. banks are not intermediates, i.e. they re not just moving money from one place to another, this is where the standard model of economics(neoclassical theory) fails, again, banks create money. the standard model does not see banks and money creation in this way as explained by steve keen, he is probably one of the best that explains this. this creation of money is exactly the entry of a ledger, hence the term 'double entry bookkeeping' as used by keen, brown, rickards etc etc etc to explain the creation of money. we can indeed create our own bank, covered under european laws provided it operates under global banking rules and regulations. this bank can indeed create its own loans, to be used for whatever purposes, provided these loans are repaid. many banking experts would say a public banking system is indeed a good idea, but to be aware, it will not provide all of the financial needs for a country and are in themselves, problematic just like private banks. yes of course a bank requires financial backing from depositors and larger institutions including governments to begin. im not the only one advocating for this, ive cited a couple of groups already setup in ireland trying to introduce such a system. im not saying its free money, its just a more publicly controlled method of money creation.

http://www.profstevekeen.com/
https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfSteveKeen/featured

an interesting spin to this:

even central banks realise this is how the majority of money is indeed created!

hardybuck · 26-01-2018 12:23pm

This has gone drastically off topic.

Wanderer78 · 26-01-2018 12:27pm

hardybuck wrote: »

This has gone drastically off topic.

even though i understand your comment, i disagree, i do think the failures of modern macro economic theory are indeed the basis of this discussion, hence my use of the quote 'expansionary fiscal contraction' earlier in the thread

hardybuck · 26-01-2018 12:30pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

even though i understand your comment, i disagree, i do think the failures of modern macro economic theory are indeed the basis of this discussion, hence my use of the quote 'expansionary fiscal contraction' earlier in the thread

Are you happy with the upkeep of your area Wanderer78?

Wanderer78 · 26-01-2018 12:31pm

hardybuck wrote: »

Are you happy with the upkeep of your area Wanderer78?

no, but to be honest im more concerned about where we re going on a macro scale

Johnboy1951 · 26-01-2018 12:37pm

I think what might be at play in this (OT) discussion is the interpretation of the phrase
"banks create money"

'Money' in that sense has no physical presence.
It is just a paperwork exercise.

If I start a bank and have a good credit rating with other institutions, then they will take my promise to pay as having full value and put it on their books as such.

So if my banks total liquid assets amount to 1 million, and I loan 10 people 1 million, one would normally expect me to have 10 million.

But because the other institutions accept my promise as if I have 10 million, then each of those I loaned to can spend up to 1 million.

The 'imaginary money' keeps moving, and rarely lands back at my bank all together, so I am never short and can pay what is called for.

The difficulties arise of course when that imaginary money (loans) are called in and my bank does not have the assets to cover them..
Bank crash!

So has my bank created money? Not really ...... but it has created the impression of 9 million that does not really exist, and is in circulation as paperwork; as the 'money' is in circulation one might say I created it.

But it is not in fact money, but unsecured loans ..... unsecured because I do not have the assets to actually pay out that 10 million in hard cash.
I only have 1 million which will generally cover what is called upon at any one time, and the rest is floating about amongst other institutions -- apparently 'money' but only IOUs when it comes to the crunch.

but of course I might be completely wrong

Wanderer78 · 26-01-2018 12:41pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I think what might be at play in this (OT) discussion is the interpretation of the phrase
"banks create money"

'Money' in that sense has no physical presence.
It is just a paperwork exercise.

If I start a bank and have a good credit rating with other institutions, then they will take my promise to pay as having full value and put it on their books as such.

So if my banks total liquid assets amount to 1 million, and I loan 10 people 1 million, one would normally expect me to have 10 million.

But because the other institutions accept my promise as if I have 10 million, then each of those I loaned to can spend up to 1 million.

The 'imaginary money' keeps moving, and rarely lands back at my bank all together, so I am never short and can pay what is called for.

The difficulties arise of course when that imaginary money (loans) are called in and my bank does not have the assets to cover them..
Bank crash!

So has my bank created money? Not really ...... but it has created the impression of 9 million that does not really exist, and is in circulation as paperwork; as the 'money' is in circulation one might say I created it.

But it is not in fact money, but unsecured loans ..... unsecured because I do not have the assets to actually pay out that 10 million in hard cash.
I only have 1 million which will generally cover what is called upon at any one time, and the rest is floating about amongst other institutions -- apparently 'money' but only IOUs when it comes to the crunch.

but of course I might be completely wrong

fractional reserve banking is highly debated, keen thinks its a load of nonsense, hes probably right, but a lot of your other arguments are valid

Max Powers · 26-01-2018 1:11pm

It's a nonsense, wanderer says himself money created by loans....that's not magic money like he originally said it's money gained on promise of being repaid.attaching loads of YouTube's and other attachments is another indication of it being nonsense I.e. can't explain it because illogic can't be explained or is B.S.

Even if wanderers magic bank opens up, who lends to it, no one unless they have capital, if they start pretending they have money by creating it on a ledger that too will be found out in double quick time, the capital it has will all be lost, the bank will quickly be declared insolvent and the tax payer of whomever central bank registered it will be liable...sounds familiar doesn't it.

Wanderer78 · 26-01-2018 1:16pm

Max Powers wrote: »

It's a nonsense, wanderer says himself money created by loans....that's not magic money like he originally said it's money gained on promise of being repaid.attaching loads of YouTube's and other attachments is another indication of it being nonsense I.e. can't explain it because illogic can't be explained or is B.S.

please read the peer reviewed paper from the boe, your understanding of money and its creation is common and flawed as explained in the paper. thank you. steve keen is probably the best to explain the role of money and its creation in the modern monetary system, i.e. banks create money from nothing, on the promise of repayment, this is where a public banking system comes into its own. im not alone

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/banking-on-the-germans-can-the-sparkasse-model-really-put-manners-on-irish-banks-36248820.html

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