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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    neoliberial ideology mainly with its partner in crime, 'the market'!

    Had to be neoliberalism again...nonsense
    Nothing to do with loads of people not paying, private operators doing it more efficiently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Max Powers wrote: »
    Had to be neoliberalism again...nonsense
    Nothing to do with loads of people not paying, private operators doing it more efficiently.

    research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,853 ✭✭✭ Deise Vu


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.

    I hate to be your local grammar Nazi but is there any chance you could have another go at that sentence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Deise Vu wrote: »
    I hate to be your local grammar Nazi but is there any chance you could have another go at that sentence?

    highly unlikely


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    I knew I shouldn't have asked! The bins should be funded from the property tax, after all the two are inextricably linked.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,627 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    I knew I shouldn't have asked! The bins should be funded from the property tax, after all the two are inextricably linked.

    How so? The Property Tax is relatively little (477M Euro in 2017). There is absolutely no way there is enough revenue stream there to fund a bin service plus run the Local Authorities (which this doesn't fund either).
    I'm very glad I pay privately for a reliable, efficient waste collection service.
    I could only just imagine the strike ridden, Union infested joke of a "service" I would get if the LA's ran it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    road_high wrote: »
    How so? The Property Tax is relatively little (477M Euro in 2017). There is absolutely no way there is enough revenue stream there to fund a bin service plus run the Local Authorities (which this doesn't fund either).
    I'm very glad I pay privately for a reliable, efficient waste collection service.
    I could only just imagine the strike ridden, Union infested joke of a "service" I would get if the LA's ran it.

    Sorry I should have been clearer (twas a quickie on the phone) - obviously the property charge would need to go up to include refuse but then again I'd be one for proper local rates to be re-introduced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    research says otherwise, whereby the faults of these systems is generally blamed on the individual but in fact is systemic including the individual, it is always worth noting, mounting evidence of 'rent extraction' from these privatised public services.

    We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    Max Powers wrote: »
    We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.

    And where shall we put your nonsense max?
    In a plastic bag and leave it beside a bin in suburbia?
    :)

    (Not in the city centre of course...only good things can happen there.
    And it's only there that any council money or investment should go too lest we forget!)

    :):):)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Max Powers wrote: »
    We'll put this NonSense into the bin with your other neoliberal ramblings like free parking, setting up our own bank, making money out of nothing.

    public banking info:
    http://republicirelandbank.com/
    http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org/

    talking about creating money, you are aware this is exactly how the majority of money is created today, i.e. through the creation of loans by banks. the term magical money tree is regularly trotted out in these arguments, reality of money creation truly is magical! i have included a research paper from the bank of england that confirms this. the Bundesbank of Germany released a similar paper in 2017 confirming the findings from the boe paper.

    a good site for more criticism of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

    free parking and neoliberalism! more research is obviously required here!

    even our own president understands the potential dangers of these issues


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    public banking info:
    http://republicirelandbank.com/
    http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org/

    talking about creating money, you are aware this is exactly how the majority of money is created today, i.e. through the creation of loans by banks. the term magical money tree is regularly trotted out in these arguments, reality of money creation truly is magical! i have included a research paper from the bank of england that confirms this. the Bundesbank of Germany released a similar paper in 2017 confirming the findings from the boe paper.

    a good site for more criticism of neoliberalism and neoclassical theory

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/

    free parking and neoliberalism! more research is obviously required here!

    even our own president understands the potential dangers of these issues

    We've been over it already...banks don't just create money, it's borrowed/promised back, pretty sure even our central bank can't magic up money like you say without consequences/pay it back, you ignored all that, depositors money, start up capital, previously and again.you said it yourself in your post...creation of loans.it's pure and utter Nonsense to suggest overly simplified crap like creating our own bank and money like it's just an entry in a ledger and no bother after that.what's happened here is I suspect, you saw a YouTube of some credit union/bank created with a benefit of members/public ethos, however this institute was created with member capital or a loan to be paid back, the institute grew through investments and deposits.some of these investments may have been funded by loans to the institute, which will need to be paid back.No free Money for its members or the institute.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Max Powers wrote: »
    We've been over it already...banks don't just create money, it's borrowed/promised back, pretty sure even our central bank can't magic up money like you say without consequences/pay it back, you ignored all that, depositors money, start up capital, previously and again.you said it yourself in your post...creation of loans.it's pure and utter Nonsense to suggest overly simplified crap like creating our own bank and money like it's just an entry in a ledger and no bother after that.what's happened here is I suspect, you saw a YouTube of some credit union/bank created with a benefit of members/public ethos, however this institute was created with member capital or a loan to be paid back, the institute grew through investments and deposits.some of these investments may have been funded by loans to the institute, which will need to be paid back.No free Money for its members or the institute.

    please read the paper, it is a peer reviewed paper, the paper shows that indeed, money is created by banks in form of loans, period! this can be done provided this bank fulfills the criteria set out by banking regulations such as the bis(bank of international settlements). this has been discussed in depth by other academics including steve keen, and other none academics including ellen brown and jim Richards. even germany has their own public bank called the sparkasse savings bank. again you re missing the point of how money is actually created. banks are not intermediates, i.e. they re not just moving money from one place to another, this is where the standard model of economics(neoclassical theory) fails, again, banks create money. the standard model does not see banks and money creation in this way as explained by steve keen, he is probably one of the best that explains this. this creation of money is exactly the entry of a ledger, hence the term 'double entry bookkeeping' as used by keen, brown, rickards etc etc etc to explain the creation of money. we can indeed create our own bank, covered under european laws provided it operates under global banking rules and regulations. this bank can indeed create its own loans, to be used for whatever purposes, provided these loans are repaid. many banking experts would say a public banking system is indeed a good idea, but to be aware, it will not provide all of the financial needs for a country and are in themselves, problematic just like private banks. yes of course a bank requires financial backing from depositors and larger institutions including governments to begin. im not the only one advocating for this, ive cited a couple of groups already setup in ireland trying to introduce such a system. im not saying its free money, its just a more publicly controlled method of money creation.

    http://www.profstevekeen.com/
    https://www.youtube.com/user/ProfSteveKeen/featured

    an interesting spin to this:



    even central banks realise this is how the majority of money is indeed created!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,031 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    This has gone drastically off topic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    hardybuck wrote: »
    This has gone drastically off topic.

    even though i understand your comment, i disagree, i do think the failures of modern macro economic theory are indeed the basis of this discussion, hence my use of the quote 'expansionary fiscal contraction' earlier in the thread


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,031 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    even though i understand your comment, i disagree, i do think the failures of modern macro economic theory are indeed the basis of this discussion, hence my use of the quote 'expansionary fiscal contraction' earlier in the thread

    Are you happy with the upkeep of your area Wanderer78?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Are you happy with the upkeep of your area Wanderer78?

    no, but to be honest im more concerned about where we re going on a macro scale


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,922 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    I think what might be at play in this (OT) discussion is the interpretation of the phrase
    "banks create money"

    'Money' in that sense has no physical presence.
    It is just a paperwork exercise.

    If I start a bank and have a good credit rating with other institutions, then they will take my promise to pay as having full value and put it on their books as such.

    So if my banks total liquid assets amount to 1 million, and I loan 10 people 1 million, one would normally expect me to have 10 million.

    But because the other institutions accept my promise as if I have 10 million, then each of those I loaned to can spend up to 1 million.

    The 'imaginary money' keeps moving, and rarely lands back at my bank all together, so I am never short and can pay what is called for.

    The difficulties arise of course when that imaginary money (loans) are called in and my bank does not have the assets to cover them..
    Bank crash!

    So has my bank created money? Not really ...... but it has created the impression of 9 million that does not really exist, and is in circulation as paperwork; as the 'money' is in circulation one might say I created it. :)

    But it is not in fact money, but unsecured loans ..... unsecured because I do not have the assets to actually pay out that 10 million in hard cash.
    I only have 1 million which will generally cover what is called upon at any one time, and the rest is floating about amongst other institutions -- apparently 'money' but only IOUs when it comes to the crunch.

    but of course I might be completely wrong


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    I think what might be at play in this (OT) discussion is the interpretation of the phrase
    "banks create money"

    'Money' in that sense has no physical presence.
    It is just a paperwork exercise.

    If I start a bank and have a good credit rating with other institutions, then they will take my promise to pay as having full value and put it on their books as such.

    So if my banks total liquid assets amount to 1 million, and I loan 10 people 1 million, one would normally expect me to have 10 million.

    But because the other institutions accept my promise as if I have 10 million, then each of those I loaned to can spend up to 1 million.

    The 'imaginary money' keeps moving, and rarely lands back at my bank all together, so I am never short and can pay what is called for.

    The difficulties arise of course when that imaginary money (loans) are called in and my bank does not have the assets to cover them..
    Bank crash!

    So has my bank created money? Not really ...... but it has created the impression of 9 million that does not really exist, and is in circulation as paperwork; as the 'money' is in circulation one might say I created it. :)

    But it is not in fact money, but unsecured loans ..... unsecured because I do not have the assets to actually pay out that 10 million in hard cash.
    I only have 1 million which will generally cover what is called upon at any one time, and the rest is floating about amongst other institutions -- apparently 'money' but only IOUs when it comes to the crunch.

    but of course I might be completely wrong

    fractional reserve banking is highly debated, keen thinks its a load of nonsense, hes probably right, but a lot of your other arguments are valid


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    It's a nonsense, wanderer says himself money created by loans....that's not magic money like he originally said it's money gained on promise of being repaid.attaching loads of YouTube's and other attachments is another indication of it being nonsense I.e. can't explain it because illogic can't be explained or is B.S.

    Even if wanderers magic bank opens up, who lends to it, no one unless they have capital, if they start pretending they have money by creating it on a ledger that too will be found out in double quick time, the capital it has will all be lost, the bank will quickly be declared insolvent and the tax payer of whomever central bank registered it will be liable...sounds familiar doesn't it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Max Powers wrote: »
    It's a nonsense, wanderer says himself money created by loans....that's not magic money like he originally said it's money gained on promise of being repaid.attaching loads of YouTube's and other attachments is another indication of it being nonsense I.e. can't explain it because illogic can't be explained or is B.S.

    please read the peer reviewed paper from the boe, your understanding of money and its creation is common and flawed as explained in the paper. thank you. steve keen is probably the best to explain the role of money and its creation in the modern monetary system, i.e. banks create money from nothing, on the promise of repayment, this is where a public banking system comes into its own. im not alone

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/banking-on-the-germans-can-the-sparkasse-model-really-put-manners-on-irish-banks-36248820.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,511 ✭✭✭ Max Powers


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    please read the peer reviewed paper from the boe, your understanding of money and its creation is common and flawed as explained in the paper. thank you. steve keen is probably the best to explain the role of money and its creation in the modern monetary system, i.e. banks create money from nothing, on the promise of repayment, this is where a public banking system comes into its own. im not alone

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/banking-on-the-germans-can-the-sparkasse-model-really-put-manners-on-irish-banks-36248820.html

    you are doing a bad job here wanderer..That German bank is exactly what I suspected a few posts ago, it's basically a German credit union..we have them, another thing it says in article....started with capital.
    There is no magic money here, what we have is fancier German credit unions, who too can go bust if they try to borrow beyond their means, they can't won't magic up Money without at some stage it biting the tail of themselves, their creditors, depositors or the tax payer.I think fundamentally you think a loan is creating money out of nothing, it isn't, a loan needs to be paid back, simple as.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭ robtri


    here is there budget report
    http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/financial/Adopted%20Budget%202018.pdf

    a lot goes on Fisheries and outdoor recreation infrastructure

    a huge amount on house maint.

    and salaries are getting a big bump


    one thing I dont get on the roads... why are private, semi state companies allowed to dig up a road to lay a pipe, duct etc.. and just fill in the dug up part with a crappy finish... surely they should be made repair correctly... so so many roads are screwed up with these patch works... dig a road.. proper repair please


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭ spankmemunkey


    robtri wrote: »
    here is there budget report
    http://www.waterfordcouncil.ie/media/financial/Adopted%20Budget%202018.pdf

    a lot goes on Fisheries and outdoor recreation infrastructure

    a huge amount on house maint.

    and salaries are getting a big bump


    one thing I dont get on the roads... why are private, semi state companies allowed to dig up a road to lay a pipe, duct etc.. and just fill in the dug up part with a crappy finish... surely they should be made repair correctly... so so many roads are screwed up with these patch works... dig a road.. proper repair please

    Totally agree, annoys the bejaysus out of me, When a job like that is done an engineer from the council should come out to sign off on finish, Its not ideal i know but its never left right


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭ spankmemunkey


    Just to go a bit more on topic

    I reckon one way to go would be to make packing more recyclable.

    I was once told any product with REPAK printed on it can be left in the shop after you have paid for it(Recycling is suppose to be included in the price under REPAK), Not sure about this thought but i deffo heard about it before.

    Reduce packaging and take a leaf from the German Model with bottles being brought back to shops to receive refunds, before you do your shopping you bring back your bottles and you get a receipt for plastic glass and cans, bring the receipt with you and its put off shopping or money at the till if you want.

    This would encourage more recycling and create jobs


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    Just to go a bit more on topic

    I reckon one way to go would be to make packing more recyclable.

    I was once told any product with REPAK printed on it can be left in the shop after you have paid for it(Recycling is suppose to be included in the price under REPAK), Not sure about this thought but i deffo heard about it before.

    Reduce packaging and take a leaf from the German Model with bottles being brought back to shops to receive refunds, before you do your shopping you bring back your bottles and you get a receipt for plastic glass and cans, bring the receipt with you and its put off shopping or money at the till if you want.

    This would encourage more recycling and create jobs

    not only would i suggest what you say, id go a step further and push for an overall reduction of the introduction of materials, in particular none recyclable materials in the first place in our production systems, not an easy task though. i particularly like the idea of 'doughnut economics' from British economist kate raworth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭ robtri


    why cant we simply make only fully recycling products can be used as packaging and are bio degradable within x months as well.

    give retailers 12 moths to get it done before enforceable


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,878 ✭✭✭ spankmemunkey


    robtri wrote: »
    why cant we simply make only fully recycling products can be used as packaging and are bio degradable within x months as well.

    give retailers 12 moths to get it done before enforceable

    I would say the easiest answer to that is vested interests of big business.

    Sometimes it takes balls to make decisions that could be better in general but affect your own standing on a political level etc etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    I'd bloody ban bottled water - or at least the half and one litre varieties, I appreciate some people have terrible water quality and so buy in bulk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,560 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    I'd bloody ban bottled water - or at least the half and one litre varieties, I appreciate some people have terrible water quality and so buy in bulk.


    Would this be seen as 'interferring with the market'?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,922 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    I'd bloody ban bottled water - or at least the half and one litre varieties, I appreciate some people have terrible water quality and so buy in bulk.

    Why would I have to buy in bulk to have a healthy drink?

    You want to force people to buy Coke and the like instead, or would your proposal also include banning all 'soft drinks' in smaller quantities?


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