What % of pple on the dole deserve to be on it?

Greentopia · 24-01-2018 04:08PM

The_Brood wrote: »

Will extra money be enough incentive, if you can already live alright and with no social stigma? The jobs which people love and would do regardless of pay are very few and very far between.

Sorry Brood, I see I didn't address these points in my last reply.

Extra money be enough incentive to work? yes I believe so. It depends on what kind of lifestyle and level of income you consider essential I suppose and as I stated-I believe there is an inherent desire and need for the vast majority of people to do meaningful and fulfilling work they will derive satisfaction from.

If the jobs people love and would do regardless are very few and far between then that is a lot down to personal choice is it not, and fulfilling the expectations of society, parents, teachers and so on of the jobs they should be doing rather than people deciding to forge their own path find their vocation in life.

It also shows that the system we live under is not working for a lot of people if they have to endure jobs they hate just to put food on the table. Which is one of the purposes of basic income support-to give people back control, freedom and choice in their lives.

I know circumstances beyond the control of some make that difficult if not impossible-full time carers or those with disabilities for example, but I think we can all do something to fulfil some of our dreams or goals in life even if it's only in spare time as a hobby.

And there is no social stigma in Finland to getting money from the state btw because people pay high taxes there and expect something back through the mode of income distribution via the state, and income top ups, supports and benefits of various kinds bring everyone up to a minimum reasonable level of income that everyone can live on without living in poverty.

Oranage2 · 24-01-2018 04:18PM

seamus wrote: »

Who cares?

So long as they're getting enough money for their smokes and their booze it means they'll stay off the streets and won't be out robbing houses.

It's not like if you cut off the people who don't want to work, that they're going to get up the next day, stick on a shirt and tie and go get a job.

One way or another, the people working will pay for the ones who won't. I'd rather pay in a structured way than have a robbery-lottery to find out whose house will be burgled next.

Well I don't think it's right that we must appease these people by basically 'bribing' them not to do any crimes.

And my suggestion is not to cut welfare, but put in place a 10-15 hour a week over 2-3 days mandatory community service in order to receive welfare. This way, the long term unemployed keep their payments while also getting a sense of achievement from working and the tax payer is getting cleaner streets and old people are have some company.

Rory28 · 24-01-2018 04:27PM

Juran wrote: »

Agree - life is cheap there and they don't have a great quality of life. I never said we should adopt their model, the point I was making is that the dole heads in Ireland have it so easy compared with other parts of the world. And I refer to dole heads as the % who have no intention of looking for work ever.

Rory28 - 'Ridiculous post' ?? So you don't mind Irish tax money being spent to support the lifestyle of those who chose not to work ? You don't mind that they are let away with long term benefits and working on the side? If you lost your job in the morning, you don't mind that you will receive less financial support than the guy who is 15 years on the dole? unless you are going to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you get a life!

It was a ridiculous post. You were saying we take a leaf from some asian countries which forces people to do whatever they can to survive because they live in extreme poverty.

You are throwing out extreme examples of people claiming the welfare. The way I think the dole should be run has already been mentioned. If you're fit and able for work and haven't found any in 6 months then its time to upskill or have your payment reduced. We have nothing to learn from countries in extreme poverty for how we help our own poor.

24-01-2018 04:32PM

Juran wrote: »

Agree - life is cheap there and they don't have a great quality of life. I never said we should adopt their model, the point I was making is that the dole heads in Ireland have it so easy compared with other parts of the world.

Which is likely why so many people want to migrate to western countries. Western lifestyles are generally much better than other countries.

There's also the difference in cost of living too, although that's starting to change in Asia for lower income levels. I suspect you have very little understanding of the shockingly bad lifestyles the poor have to live through in those countries.

Take China for example. You get old (say over 60), amd you're thrown out of your apartment (no private ownership of property, it's all owned by the state). Ageism is rife, can't get real work, no pensions (except for some government jobs, and even then it's very low and unreliable), no unemployment or welfare available. So you get a job sweeping the streets or collecting plastic bottles from the wastebins. Great! No permanent work, you're competing against a few million other elderly people, corruption is rampant (so you need to bribe others for daily job placements, and you mightn't get paid at the end anyway), no healthcare for the poor. Then add in the government militia to beat you up, the police who force you to sleep outside the city limits, criminal gangs control the streets especially near construction areas, etc.

Yup. Those on the dole definitely have it better here. Well done pointing that out. :rolleyes:

And I refer to dole heads as the % who have no intention of looking for work ever.

I have seen dozens of these kinds of threads and statements on boards, and I've yet to see any definitive statistics to show the numbers of people who have "no intention of working ever" (or even to show the numbers obviously taking advantage of the system)... Instead, you get these generalized statements assuming the numbers involved. Plucking numbers or percentages out of the air to justify their quite odd "beliefs".

So... any reliable statistics or evidence to back up your statements?

somefeen · 24-01-2018 04:43PM

Its funny how it would have been easier to scam the dole during the boom years. I remember when you could get payments straight into your bank and sign on once a month or so.
It was all very hands off.

I don't think most people who complain about long term welfare recipients understand how much has changed or how it works now.

Shenshen · 24-01-2018 04:48PM

Rory28 wrote: »

It was a ridiculous post. You were saying we take a leaf from some asian countries which forces people to do whatever they can to survive because they live in extreme poverty.

You are throwing out extreme examples of people claiming the welfare. The way I think the dole should be run has already been mentioned. If you're fit and able for work and haven't found any in 6 months then its time to upskill or have your payment reduced. We have nothing to learn from countries in extreme poverty for how we help our own poor.

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

Rory28 · 24-01-2018 04:50PM

Shenshen wrote: »

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

I do but I have an issue with the courses on offer.

batistuta9 · 24-01-2018 08:47PM

Shenshen wrote: »

You do know that's pretty much what's happening already anyway, yes?

"Jobseeker's Benefit is paid for 9 months (234 days) for people with 260 or more PRSI contributions paid. It is paid for 6 months (156 days) for people with fewer than 260 PRSI contributions paid."

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_benefit.html

Not really, after that you just transfer to jobseekers allowance.

flutered · 24-01-2018 08:52PM

a far smaller percentage, that a present minister screwing the system by getting driven to work on a roundabout route, to collect far bigger exes

Mrs OBumble · 24-01-2018 09:10PM

batistuta9 wrote: »

Not really, after that you just transfer to jobseekers allowance.

Not necessarily. It's income and asset tested, so a co-habiting partner earning even a modest income means that you get nothing.

Cheerful Spring · 25-01-2018 06:22PM

We are lucky is there not 40+ percent youth unemployment in Spain. That 40 percent of the population that is struggling at a young age. Things will only get worse in the future when factory employers start using machines and AI to do jobs that humans are currently now doing. I was unemployed in 2010 around the recession and took me a couple of years to find a new job. It not easy to find a job if you have no experience or current experience. A lot of people could be out of work since the recession and there are no jobs for them. I will say if you fit to work and never worked ever then it's fairly obvious you decided to sit on the bum for your whole life.

splinter65 · 25-01-2018 09:24PM

batistuta9 wrote: »

Not really, after that you just transfer to jobseekers allowance.

You have to be means tested for JSA.
Not everyone gets it.

Help4free · 29-01-2018 11:38PM

Im offering my time for free in helping unemployed people help with finding work.

I'm offering to help people write CVs, giving advice on job searching, interview assistance or maybe you just want to chat about where you would like your career to go. I may be able to point you in the right direction.

I'm not selling anything and I'm also not promising jobs.

All I require is that you genuinely want to find work or improve yourself I'm some way.

Feel free to PM me.

zmgakt7uw2dvfs · 08-02-2018 06:58AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Is this the fault of the education system, or is it down to genetics in your opinion?

CruelCoin · 08-02-2018 09:26AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Have you a link to that survey?

Would be interested to see if there is a rural/urban split, etc.

demanufactured · 08-02-2018 09:31AM

I'm not very good with statistics, but I'd say around 93.25%.

Wanderer78 · 08-02-2018 09:32AM

Paola Damp Whaler wrote:

Is this the fault of the education system, or is it down to genetics in your opinion?

Since we have created a one size fits all system, I'd say it is at fault

RobbingBandit · 08-02-2018 09:36AM

You know op people on the dole can go to school and learn English and History so even you could be a grammar nazi if you try...

bnt · 08-02-2018 09:39AM

Allen Aggressive Reindeer wrote: »

Are there apples on the dole?

I know there are pineapples, at least:

Macy0161 · 08-02-2018 09:39AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Since we have created a one size fits all system, I'd say it is at fault

No parental responsibility? What were the attendance patterns of this group going to school in general?

People claiming should be made go back into education schemes, jobs clubs or even just going to a mens/ womens shed type place. But all day, every working day. This sitting around all day* doing nothing about it shouldn't be an option as it's not mentally good for the person, or effective use of welfare.

*ignoring all the anecdotal working and claiming stories.

Wanderer78 · 08-02-2018 09:43AM

Macy0161 wrote:

No parental responsibility? What were the attendance patterns of this group going to school in general?

What should we do if some of these issues do seem to be parental or part parental? School really is hell for some particularly if they have complex issues

Macy0161 · 08-02-2018 10:24AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

What should we do if some of these issues do seem to be parental or part parental? School really is hell for some particularly if they have complex issues

We should still address it (through further education opportunities - literacy courses are available), but parental behaviours and attitudes must impact of at least some of the cases of children can't cope with school. Not everything is the system and/or Governments fault.

Wanderer78 · 08-02-2018 10:34AM

Macy0161 wrote: »

We should still address it (through further education opportunities - literacy courses are available), but parental behaviours and attitudes must impact of at least some of the cases of children can't cope with school. Not everything is the system and/or Governments fault.

a large proportion of it is sadly, we have decided to largely ignore complex issues that cause difficulties in learning, even though this in slowly improving, we re still continuing with the status quo, for various different reasons. you ll actually find some parents have complex issues themselves, including learning disabilities, many of these individuals issues would actually be undiagnosed, hence untreated. these issues impact self esteem very badly, leading to further complexity. many parents are actually highly stressed, with many households requiring both parents to work full time, in order to run a household, this can and does have serious negative effects on the education of their kids.

Rory28 · 08-02-2018 10:59AM

Macy0161 wrote: »

No parental responsibility?People claiming should be made go back into education schemes, jobs clubs or even just going to a mens/ womens shed type place. But all day, every working day.

Send them to a shed for 5 days a week? are you serious? Much as you'd like we cant control our populace like this.

The education scheme sounds good but in practice it would just be cv building classes and interview training.

CruelCoin · 08-02-2018 11:35AM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Since we have created a one size fits all system, I'd say it is at fault

How do you mean?

We already have levels within subjects (higher, ordinary, foundation).

Or are you thinking more along the lines of schools for people who "cnt rite gud"

CruelCoin · 08-02-2018 11:36AM

Rory28 wrote: »

Send them to a shed for 5 days a week? are you serious? Much as you'd like we cant control our populace like this.

Don't be so dramatic.

They're community groups. Nothing wrong with sending people to these, if they're not willing to go anywhere else.

https://www.changex.org/ie/menssheds?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsKC404-W2QIV77ftCh0tzgizEAAYASAAEgL6N_D_BwE

Wanderer78 · 08-02-2018 11:41AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

How do you mean?

We already have levels within subjects (higher, ordinary, foundation).

Or are you thinking more along the lines of schools for people who "cnt rite gud"

our leveling system doesnt actually address complexities such as learning disabilities, behavioral issues, mental health issues etc etc etc. id be classed in some peoples eyes as a person who 'cnt rite gud'!

Rory28 · 08-02-2018 11:49AM

CruelCoin wrote: »

Don't be so dramatic.

They're community groups. Nothing wrong with sending people to these, if they're not willing to go anywhere else.

https://www.changex.org/ie/menssheds?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsKC404-W2QIV77ftCh0tzgizEAAYASAAEgL6N_D_BwE

That all looks grand but I still don't see how we can force people into this.

piplip87 · 08-02-2018 11:50AM

Back on the dole myself after a long time off it. Travelling to Dublin each day. Leaving at 6 not home until 8. I am only in Virginia an hour and a half away.

People tend to forget when looking at the unemployment figures compared to jobs available, is that most work is in Dublin. Somebody starting out at 25,000 a year cannot move to Dublin, maybe financially better off waiting in Leitrim, Donegal or West Cavan until something closer to home materialises.

BattleCorp · 08-02-2018 12:20PM

Rory28 wrote: »

Send them to a shed for 5 days a week? are you serious? Much as you'd like we cant control our populace like this.

The education scheme sounds good but in practice it would just be cv building classes and interview training.

While I don't recommend sending people to a shed for 5 days a week where they don't learn anything, it is a good idea to send people somewhere where they learn skills that will increase their employability. You seem to be knocking cv building classes and interview training. Both are useful to people who are actively seeking employment.

Getting people to so something to help increase their employability is far better than paying them to lie in bed all day and do nothing to improve their circumstances.

What % of pple on the dole deserve to be on it?

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