Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

kaymin · 15-01-2018 6:50pm

kylith wrote: »

OK, let me spell it out for you in nice big letters:
Regardless of if a woman has invited you to sleep in her spare room it is not cool to strip naked as soon as she leaves the room and then try to undress her and grab her breasts while she actively moves your hands away. If consent is not enthusiastic and freely given then what you are doing is not a Good Thing.

If a woman says that she doesn't want to have sex with you and you persist with advances because she might change her mind or you might bea able to pester her into some action then you are a dickhead at best and an abuser at worst.

If you find that you are doing things to someone rather than doing them with them, then you should stop.

Jesus, I have shared an actual bed with a male friend in the past and he didn't attempt to so much as lay a finger on me because he is a decent person who wouldn't assume that anything other than saying 'hey, wanna have sex?' is an invitation to having sex.

Okay, Kylith - we've established what's not cool. Guys have pushed their luck with girls down through the ages - there's a balance to be found but you seem to suggest guys should never push their luck / never be cheeky. And maybe that's where society wants to take male / female interactions - it seems to me to rule out a little fun / flirtation.

You seem to not understand the risk you cause to yourself by inviting strangers to stay in your home overnight if you equate it to sharing a bed with a male friend.

AudreyHepburn · 15-01-2018 7:37pm

While this was certainly not a pleasant experience I don’t think it should be classified as sexual assault or rape.

Yes he was over eager and sleazy but she was 23 years old, a grown with the ability to say no. Which is exactly what she did and shock, horror, he stopped.

I can’t see where she lost control in this situation or where he forced her into anything under duress.

He made a mistake but there’s nothing to be gained from trying to turn him into some kind of sexual deviant.

This MeToo thing has gone too far now - how can anyone think it’s ok to call a man a predator just because you may have done things with him you later regret?

Nermal · 15-01-2018 8:42pm

kylith wrote: »

If consent is not enthusiastic and freely given then what you are doing is not a Good Thing.

Ridiculous. I honestly wonder how much experience of human relations people who say these things have. They have never persuaded, influenced, cajoled or tempted? Never been convinced, never been swayed or charmed? What a life!

Pac1Man · 15-01-2018 8:48pm

On one side you have a monster like Weinstein. On the other you have this non-story which reads like a sting operation.

Both careers are probably over.

Shame on anyone metooing this nonsense.

RDM_83 again · 15-01-2018 9:04pm

Thing is, if this was a celebrity with a different public image this probably wouldn't be much of a story, however his whole schtick is that he's gentlemanly, caring, in touch with women's feelings and a feminist.
The story and the reaction as well as the probable damage to his career have to be viewed with an awareness of that. If this story came out about say Christian Bale as a random example it probably wouldn't get as much attention despite him being a bigger star.

Aziz is just another vocally feminist man that turns out to be a sleaze, maybe people should start realising that the men who jump hard on that band wagon are just as likely (or probably more) to be problematic.

I don't get how this is a knock out argument for consent classes for men though, he stopped immediately when she said no and there wasn't issues in relation to "impaired" consent, it's an argument that women might need to be taught to verbally say no but that's hardly complicated

15-01-2018 9:12pm

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Aziz is just another vocally feminist man that turns out to be a sleaze, maybe people should start realising that the men who jump hard on that band wagon are just as likely (or probably more) to be problematic.

Except we have a one-sided story told to a gossip magazine by a person who remains nameless. No investigation by the police to determine the validity of the claims. No idea of what was edited by the magazine. No evidence of him actually being a sleaze, except a woman who would go first to a Gossip magazine than go through official channels.

When these claims are put through the media, it's guilty until proven innocent, and if proven innocent, it's likely not reported as much. (Although I've no idea how you would prove innocence or guilt in this situation since there was no violence or sex actually done)

PotatoSpud · 15-01-2018 9:15pm

Pac1Man wrote: »

On one side you have a monster like Weinstein. On the other you have this non-story which reads like a sting operation.

Context is important here though, Aziz is a guy who has very heavily promoted himself for years as being some kind of bastion of wokeness and I can fully imagine that that perception played a pretty big part in why this woman was drawn to him.

She was expecting that guy from the sitcom and Aziz himself has, to my knowledge, never made any kind of real effort to clarify that he's not that guy.

Triceratops Ballet · 15-01-2018 9:32pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

how can anyone think it’s ok to call a man a predator just because you may have done things with him you later regret?

TBF she did tell him to stop at the time(and he did) so I don't think you can say she said this stuff because she regretted it later.

AudreyHepburn · 15-01-2018 9:56pm

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

TBF she did tell him to stop at the time(and he did) so I don't think you can say she said this stuff because she regretted it later.

What other reason could there be then?

It’s clearly not sexual assault so what could have to gain by saying it is?

15-01-2018 10:36pm

Was Grace frozen, terrified, stuck? No. She tells us that she wanted something from Ansari and that she was trying to figure out how to get it. She wanted affection, kindness, attention. Perhaps she hoped to maybe even become the famous man’s girlfriend. He wasn’t interested. What she felt afterward—rejected yet another time, by yet another man—was regret. And what she and the writer who told her story created was 3,000 words of revenge porn. The clinical detail in which the story is told is intended not to validate her account as much as it is to hurt and humiliate Ansari. Together, the two women may have destroyed Ansari’s career, which is now the punishment for every kind of male sexual misconduct, from the grotesque to the disappointing..

Good article:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/01/the-humiliation-of-aziz-ansari/550541/

kylith · 16-01-2018 12:21am

Nermal wrote: »

Ridiculous. I honestly wonder how much experience of human relations people who say these things have. They have never persuaded, influenced, cajoled or tempted? Never been convinced, never been swayed or charmed? What a life!

Good grief. You don't have to cajole or persuade someone into doing something that they want to do.

If you have to pester people until they have sex with you they don't want to have sex with you. Jesus wept. Stop pressuring people into having sex. You don't have to 'go on, go on, go on' people who actually want to sleep with you.

retro:electro · 16-01-2018 12:34am

kylith wrote: »

Good grief. You don't have to cajole or persuade someone into doing something that they want to do.

If you have to pester people until they have sex with you they don't want to have sex with you. Jesus wept. Stop pressuring people into having sex. You don't have to 'go on, go on, go on' people who actually want to sleep with you.

Pester isn't the right word- but wearing down resolve is persuasion by enticement, something which many/ most? of us have been subject to at one time or another during our lives. There's nothing wrong with it and we shouldn't need to be protected from that.
Not exactly sure if that's what was happening here though. He didn't seem to badger her but he wasn't very considerate either.

conorhal · 16-01-2018 12:36am

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I don't get how this is a knock out argument for consent classes for men though, he stopped immediately when she said no and there wasn't issues in relation to "impaired" consent, it's an argument that women might need to be taught to verbally say no but that's hardly complicated

It seems to me that it's not men that require 'consent classes', it's women who clearly need a 101 class on the numerous ways in which tell a man to F*%k off! I don't know what's gone so wrong with the millennial generation, back in my day it seemed that girls were all pretty much natural experts when it came to that particular life skill!

kylith · 16-01-2018 12:42am

anna080 wrote: »

Pester isn't the right word- but wearing down resolve is persuasion by enticement, something which many/ most? of us have been subject to at one time or another during our lives. There's nothing wrong with it and we shouldn't need to be protected from that.
Not exactly sure if that's what was happening here though. He didn't seem to badger her but he wasn't very considerate either.

‘Wear down’. Seriously?

I’m starting to wonder how much of this ‘persuading/cajoling is ok’ stuff is guys trying to convince themselves that their behaviour isn’t sh!tty and women trying to convince themselves that guys haven’t been sh!tty to them.

16-01-2018 1:11am

kylith wrote: »

‘Wear down’. Seriously?

I’m starting to wonder how much of this ‘persuading/cajoling is ok’ stuff is guys trying to convince themselves that their behaviour isn’t sh!tty and women trying to convince themselves that guys haven’t been sh!tty to them.

I wouldn't assign that to all men, and TBH most guys I know (from group conversations) would accept the first response as being set in stone.

I certainly don't have much agreement with this cajoling or pushing women. I can understand an element of persuasion but a guy should always be ready to accept the woman's rejection. Now, if she decides to come after him later, then fine, but personally, I'm not one to follow up on a rejection. (I've had two girlfriends who initially rejected my advance, and then asked me out a bit later)

On the other hand though, from conversations with female friends, quite a few of them complain about guys who give up too easily. That their rejection might be a test, and the guy fails when he doesn't chase her a bit. They expects him not to be an ass about it though.

professore · 16-01-2018 1:14am

kylith wrote: »

‘Wear down’. Seriously?

I’m starting to wonder how much of this ‘persuading/cajoling is ok’ stuff is guys trying to convince themselves that their behaviour isn’t sh!tty and women trying to convince themselves that guys haven’t been sh!tty to them.

Where do you stand on seduction then? It totally doesn't work if the woman jumps on you straight away. Or do you think guys should say "Hi I want to **** you, are you down?" Personally I would find that totally unsexy and off-putting, but I knew a guy who had a lot of success with that approach. I liked to have a bit of fun and teasing first. Nothing like this Ansari guy though, that's sleazy.

Then again back in the day casual sex wasn't half as common as it appears to be today.

The Legend Of Kira · 16-01-2018 2:29am

Read her story; if all of her story/her side of the story is actually factually true; it sounds like a bad first date & it sounds like he acted bit too forward or came on a bit strong on a first date, I wouldn,t regard someone coming on a bit too strong on a first date as " sexual misconduct " & for this anonymous woman to describe her date with him that he engaged in " sexual misconduct " in an insult to women who have being victims of actual real sexual assaults. Given that she went on a date wit him months ago I can,t help but wonder why is this anonymous woman airing her laundry in public about about having a bad first date; questions pose why is she doing it & what exactly does she want ? does she want him charged with something ? does she want some of his money as in an out of court payoff settlement ?

RacoonQueen · 16-01-2018 7:16am

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand though, from conversations with female friends, quite a few of them complain about guys who give up too easily. That their rejection might be a test, and the guy fails when he doesn't chase her a bit. They expects him not to be an ass about it though.

That is ridiculous. Why would they do that?

Pac1Man · 16-01-2018 9:00am

So we're banning courtship now? What about playing hard to get on the woman's side? Is that gone too?

kaymin · 16-01-2018 9:08am

Pac1Man wrote: »

So we're banning courtship now? What about playing hard to get on the woman's side? Is that gone too?

In fairness I think women that think like kylith are in the minority. If only there was some way they could identify themselves so they can be avoided!

16-01-2018 9:13am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

That is ridiculous. Why would they do that?

While she might like him, dating with him now might be inconvenient versus later. You've never encountered a woman playing hard to get?

Maybe this isn't an Irish thing, but I've known quite a few women who loved to play games with the heads with the guy(s) approaching them. Some were tests (to raise/lower their opinion), whilst others were just mean little gestures. There are also women who will 'encourage' the guy just enough to keep him interested, with him buying gifts or offering dates, but she doesn't commit to anything.

Should he just walk over and ask explicitly if she would like to consent to sex? Would women find it obtrusive is strangers were asking them for consent to sex?

I really don't get these extreme examples.

No, he shouldn't because then (in my opinion) he's an ignorant little ****. Some men may behave like that but they're a major part of this whole problem.

16-01-2018 9:19am

kaymin wrote: »

In fairness I think women that think like kylith are in the minority. If only there was some way they could identify themselves so they can be avoided!

I'd suggest that the Internet/Social media gives the impression that there's a lot of women out there with these views, but in reality, I haven't encountered any who viewed men that way. Although, perhaps it's a perspective with a growing following. I genuinely hope not though.

Triceratops Ballet · 16-01-2018 9:22am

kaymin wrote: »

In fairness I think women that think like kylith are in the minority. If only there was some way they could identify themselves so they can be avoided!

Women like Kylith? Women who don't want to be pestered for sex?!

There's nothing wrong with chatting, and flirting and there's a big difference between chat and flirting and pawing at someone and cajoling them into having sex with you. If you find you're always working to get into a woman's pants your doing something wrong.

RacoonQueen · 16-01-2018 9:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

While she might like him, dating with him now might be inconvenient versus later. You've never encountered a woman playing hard to get?

Maybe this isn't an Irish thing, but I've known quite a few women who loved to play games with the heads with the guy(s) approaching them. Some were tests (to raise/lower their opinion), whilst others were just mean little gestures. There are also women who will 'encourage' the guy just enough to keep him interested, with him buying gifts or offering dates, but she doesn't commit to anything.

No, I don't play games with men. I mean I'm hard work because I'm not good with emotion and stuff...but if I'm interested in him I generally tell him. If he asks me out (ha Irish men asking a woman out...) and I want to go out with him, I say yes. If he tells me he's interested and I'm also interested, I tell him...do actual fully fledged grown ups in their late 20s/ 30s/40s etc play games with the opposite sex still???

If 'dating him now might be inconvenient versus later' - why play games...just say ''look I'm actually really interested in you and I'd like to date you, but I'm really busy right now and can't invest in a relationship. I mean I don't expect you to wait for me, but, if you're around in say in 4 weeks, lets give it a shot then?"

Perhaps that's all too straight forward for some...

Would men actually be still interested in a woman if she did everything in your second paragraph?

kaymin · 16-01-2018 9:35am

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

Women like Kylith? Women who don't want to be pestered for sex?!

There's nothing wrong with chatting, and flirting and there's a big difference between chat and flirting and pawing at someone and cajoling them into having sex with you. If you find you're always working to get into a woman's pants your doing something wrong.

Personally I am ultra reserved when it comes to these things and would be mortified to be considered a pest. However I don't see anything wrong with other guys that are a little pushy / cheeky and I think most girls like a little of it. There's a fine line between flirting and behaviour that you consider to be pestering.

Triceratops Ballet · 16-01-2018 9:39am

kaymin wrote: »

Personally I am ultra reserved when it comes to these things and would be mortified to be considered a pest. However I don't see anything wrong with other guys that are a little pushy / cheeky and I think most girls like a little of it. There's a fine line between flirting and behaviour that you consider to be pestering.

I think I need to understand what u mean by cheeky or a little pushy.
Like the example Kylith gave, stranger in her house aside, imo is out of line.

16-01-2018 9:43am

RacoonQueen wrote: »

If he asks me out (ha Irish men asking a woman out...)

Could you expand on that? Irish men don't ask women out?

I returned to Ireland about 6 months ago. Most of my adult dating experience is of UK/Italy/Spain, Eastern Europe, and Asia.

If 'dating him now might be inconvenient versus later' - why play games...just say ''look I'm actually really interested in you and I'd like to date you, but I'm really busy right now and can't invest in a relationship. I mean I don't expect you to wait for me, but, if you're around in say in 4 weeks, lets give it a shot then?"

Which would be wonderful.

[Doesn't happen though from my own experiences or the stories told by friends (both male and female).]

Perhaps that's all too straight forward for some...

I'm generally a very direct person. I like to talk things out and be clear about my/her intentions. Why? Because I have met women who tried to play games with my interest, and I didn't enjoy the experience.

Personally, I found it more common with the very physically attractive women who might be dating 4-5 guys at the same time, waiting until she finds the "right" one.

Would men actually be still interested in a woman if she did everything in your second paragraph?

Actually, yes. Depends on the individuals in question, of course. However, I'd say that most men can be rather focused when they really like someone, and will put up with a lot of crap, if there's a chance that it might work out.

kaymin · 16-01-2018 9:47am

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I think I need to understand what u mean by cheeky or a little pushy.
Like the example Kylith gave, stranger in her house aside, imo is out of line.

It's hard to give an example other than pushing the boundaries beyond what the girl had indicated she is up for. Traditionally girls would not be forward about what they want, it doesn't mean they don't want it. So guys have to explore that a little. Half the fun is the chase. If everyone was to live by kylith rules then it just becomes sterile.

The behaviour of the stranger in kylith home is out of order of course but she is completely naive to put herself in that position in the first place.

suicide_circus · 16-01-2018 9:48am

Was it an awkward and embarrassing first and last date? Yes.

Was the girl assulted? Not even close.

Did both parties make unwise choices and fail to notice signals? Absolutely.

Is this a wholly unfair example of trial by media? Sure looks like it.

Is it somewhat delicious to see a "woke" #metoo male feminist hoist with his own petard? A little bit.

Can we leave it at that?

16-01-2018 9:52am

Jorge Santos wrote: »

I would love to hear what the approved methods of seduction are, it seems saying hello is "obtrusive", asking for consent explicitly is "obtrusive" and not asking for consent explicitly is wrong.

Can you please stop using the word "obtrusive"?

Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

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