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Aziz Ansari - sexual assault or unwarranted assault on reputation

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    #242
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    anna080 wrote: »
    It sounds like an embarrassing fumbling mess of an encounter, but one I certainly would not describe as assault. I'm not gonna jump on the "she should have done this, she should have said that" school of thought because in all honestly that's as useful now as a kick in the face. But it does sound like he was too pushy, she was too passive, and the consequential result was a complete clusterfcuk of awkwardness. I think it's important to note that when she finally voiced up and articulated her reluctance to have sex with him, he seems to have respected that.

    Yeah neither of them come off great. I do understand her point that she was struggling to reconcile his behaviour with the image she had of him, and that that was influencing her reaction, but he's not responsible for that like.

    Dunno about calling it a sexual assault but it was shítty behaviour from him, the fact that people are like "sure that's just a normal sexual encounter" makes me pretty depressed for the women they're having sex with.

    Anzari himself understood the wrongness when she texted him like.


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    #243
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    twill wrote: »
    Right, no one. That's just from this page. Try facts some time.

    It's not an excuse. It's a reason. Again, I'm not sure what you think I started. I'm not engaging in whatever gender war garbage you seem to be pushing.

    Jesus wept. He doesn't say that's consent does he? He said lead on.. as others have said, the oul consent could have been taken for example from the 'd!ck in mouth' section of the evening.

    Also, I thought it was endemic on this thread? That's just one post which still doesn't back up your word twisting point. Facts.. you're having a laugh.


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    #244
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just on the moving the hand to the groin thing, any other lad here had the whole "Stop. Don't stop" experience? Bloody infuriating and this seems a case where it goes very badly.

    Do you mean the back and forth of apparent consent that can happen, almost like foreplay?


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    #245
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Jesus wept. He doesn't say that's consent does he? He said lead on.. as others have said, the oul consent could have been taken for example from the 'd!ck in mouth' section of the evening.

    As an aside, those others are wrong in saying that, one often does follow the other, but one is not consent for the other.


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    #246
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    twill wrote: »
    It's not an excuse. It's a reason. Again, I'm not sure what you think I started. I'm not engaging in whatever gender war garbage you seem to be pushing.

    Gender war garbage I seem to be pushing?

    Your words: "The other side to this is that women are often viewed negatively by men if they approach, or assumptions are made about their intentions"

    Now I change a little bit:
    "The other side to this is that men are often viewed negatively by women if they approach, or assumptions are made about their intentions"

    Still don't get it? If you don't... I give up.


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    #247
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Jesus wept. He doesn't say that's consent does he? He said lead on.. as others have said, the oul consent could have been taken for example from the 'd!ck in mouth' section of the evening.

    .

    If you have your hand in my pants I have a carte blanche for consent do I? Dildo up your arse is implied as fine, is it?


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    #248
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Do you mean the back and forth of apparent consent that can happen, almost like foreplay?

    Perhaps that's one way of putting it :p


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    #249
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Terry Muscular Hotel wrote: »
    If you have your hand in my pants I have a carte blanche for consent do I? Dildo up your arse is implied as fine, is it?

    Yeah, thats a completely rational proportional example to make..

    Perhaps allowing him to perform oral sex would be an example of consent continuing.

    You talk of usual suspects.. :rolleyes:


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    #250
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Terry Muscular Hotel wrote: »
    Dunno about calling it a sexual assault but it was shítty behaviour from him, the fact that people are like "sure that's just a normal sexual encounter" makes me pretty depressed for the women they're having sex with.

    Who said what happened was "sure that's just a normal sexual encounter"?

    I wouldn't imagine it to be anything close to being normal.


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    #251
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not seeking to derail the thread, but this is the first time I've even seen a reference to "consent classes".

    And TBH I do think that consent and what consists of giving consent should be taught to everyone. Just so we're all clear as to what is expected. I get the feeling that the traditional perspectives on consent no longer cover the whole area.
    There's been talk of weaving education about consent into sex ed classes, leading to uproar from some quarters that it's, idk, acting like men can't spot when a woman doesn't want to have sex with them which, in the context of this thread is a bit....um...odd.
    givyjoe wrote: »
    Jesus wept. He doesn't say that's consent does he? He said lead on.. as others have said, the oul consent could have been taken for example from the 'd!ck in mouth' section of the evening.
    You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to go any further. You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to do it again. You can be in the act of performing oral sex on someone and decide you want to stop now. Them same applies when they are performing oral sex on you; you do not have to let them continue, do it again, or take it further.


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    #252
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Yeah, thats a completely rational proportional example to make..

    Perhaps allowing him to perform oral sex would be an example of consent continuing.

    You talk of usual suspects.. :rolleyes:

    What's the difference? Swap it for a finger up the arse if you like?

    If every sexual act she engaged in implied continuous consent, what's your take on the fact that he moved her hand to his dick, she removed it and then he repeated the same move seven times?


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    #253
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    I also think too many people are all too ready to use this experience as an indicator of how "women are socially conditioned to prioriatise men's feelings above their own" bla bla.. when to me, this experience is nothing but a comment on the two it happened to. It's not a reflection on societal factors or assumed conditioning or whatever other bolloxology. It's a direct consequence of two people who were probably too immature and inexperienced to even be in the situation in the first place. It's speaks of nothing else only their own personal awkwardness.


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    #254
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    kylith wrote: »
    There's been talk of weaving education about consent into sex ed classes, leading to uproar from some quarters that it's, idk, acting like men can't spot when a woman doesn't want to have sex with them which, in the context of this thread is a bit....um...odd.

    You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to go any further. You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to do it again. You can be in the act of performing oral sex on someone and decide you want to stop now.

    Yes, you sure can. But others seem to be suggesting that there was no consent before or during the oral sex.. which is.. bonkers.

    When she vocally said stop, he did, didn't he?


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    #255
    Oranage2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,130 ✭✭✭✭Oranage2


    Terry Muscular Hotel wrote: »
    Yeah neither of them come off great. I do understand her point that she was struggling to reconcile his behaviour with the image she had of him, and that that was influencing her reaction, but he's not responsible for that like.

    Dunno about calling it a sexual assault but it was shítty behaviour from him, the fact that people are like "sure that's just a normal sexual encounter" makes me pretty depressed for the women they're having sex with.

    Anzari himself understood the wrongness when she texted him like.

    Most men don't know women like this really.

    She's a bit fame hungry thinking the guy could raise her status and introduce her to a lifestyle she could only dream of. Unfortunately she realized the guy only wanted sex, she felt she cheap and that she let herself down and due to all the media reports she turned victim and blamed the guy for her feeling like that.

    In real life a girl would just not got go back to a guy's home if she had no interest, or at least make a verbal remark that she's no expecting something to happen if she does go back.


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    #256
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kylith wrote: »
    There's been talk of weaving education about consent into sex ed classes, leading to uproar from some quarters that it's, idk, acting like men can't spot when a woman doesn't want to have sex with them which, in the context of this thread is a bit....um...odd.

    The context of this thread is based on a one-sided article with very scattered reporting of events. But, yes... men shouldn't think that a woman who is naked in his home and has both given/received oral sex, and who hasn't told him to stop... would think that she was interested in having sex with him. Yup. Clearly misguided.

    And I can understand the uproar if the course follows the path of previous "Gender studies" programmes which were essentially "feminist studies", praising women and blaming men for everything, while dismissing the statistical evidence as being unrelated to their viewpoints.

    Yes, I went and had a look at some of these consent classes on google.
    You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to go any further. You can perform oral sex on someone and decide you don't want to do it again. You can be in the act of performing oral sex on someone and decide you want to stop now.

    Yes, you can. And you can inform that person that you don't wish to continue and stop. You can tell that person clearly.


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    #257
    twill
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    anna080 wrote: »
    I also think too many people are all too ready to use this experience as an indicator of how "women are socially conditioned to prioriatise men's feelings above their own" bla bla.. when to me, this experience is nothing but a comment on the two it happened to. It's not a reflection on societal factors or assumed conditioning or whatever other bolloxology. It's a direct consequence of two people who were probably too immature and inexperienced to even be in the situation in the first place. It's speaks of nothing else only their own personal awkwardness.
    Agree with the latter, but I think there was only one person seriously arguing your first point. All of the women on the thread except one agreed that it wasn't sexual assault, but that he was being pushy and overbearing. There seem to be a lot of men angrily denying that women could ever feel vulnerable or at risk in dating situations, however.


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    #258
    Contessa Raven
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Contessa Raven


    I don't like the way this whole thing has played out at all.

    I would say they both made bad judgements.

    To me, it seems like she had certain expectations as to how the night would go. Maybe she expected him to be considerate, caring and respectful towards her and when that wasn't the case, she hung around longer than she was comfortable with in the hopes that it would somehow improve. I can definitely see how that could have been her thought process.

    He was an absolute d***hebag and his behaviour definitely doesn't come across in any way decent. He seems to have come on very strong, acted like a sleaze and not really been aware how that could have been intimidating for his date.
    I wouldn't call this sexual assault. He is not a mind reader and she didn't tell him to stop straight away. She engaged in sexual activity up to a point and as soon as she did say stop, he stopped.
    He was definitely being pushy and sleazy. That doesn't necessarily make him a sexual predator. This all just seems like a huge mistake on both parts.

    The part I have the biggest issue with is that she says that she was in contact with him the next day and she expressed how the night made her feel and he responded to apologise and that his intention wasn't to make her feel the way she did.
    So why is she going public with it now? They both made mistakes. He has apologised for his and now she is "outing" him because he wore the badge to the GG's? I don't get it.


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    #259
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Terry Muscular Hotel wrote: »
    What's the difference? Swap it for a finger up the arse if you like?

    If every sexual act she engaged in implied continuous consent, what's your take on the fact that he moved her hand to his dick, she removed it and then he repeated the same move seven times?

    What on earth are you on about?! Utterly ludicrous examples that leave me wondering what on earth happens in your bedroom.

    What's your take on how sex works/ should work? Every.. single.. act requires specifically asking.. 'Can i...?'

    As for the hand on crotch 7 times, its one part of the account I find hard to believe (numbers wise). Was she literally counting '1 mississippi, 2 mississippi' each time he did it?. Did the oral sex takes place after this? I may have missed it, but he didn't force himself inside her mouth did he? I'd have to re-check the definition of sexual assault to see if placing her hand on his crotch meets the definition sexual assault, perhaps it does.


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    #260
    twill
    Registered Users Posts: 587 ✭✭✭twill


    Contessa Raven wrote: »
    So why is she going public with it now? They both made mistakes. He has apologised for his and now she is "outing" him because he wore the badge to the GG's? I don't get it.
    Yes, agree with this. I don't like the 'outing' process except where necessary - Eliza Dushku's case, for example, Or Jonathon Schaech - but if she was outing him as a hypocrite perhaps I'd understand. But framing it as a sexual assault is completely wrong.


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    #261
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    givyjoe wrote: »
    What on earth are you on about?! Utterly ludicrous examples that leave me wondering what on earth happens in your bedroom.

    What's your take on how sex works/ should work? Every.. single.. act requires specifically asking.. 'Can i...?'

    I don't know how sex works in your bedroom, but it's not a case of putting your hand up and asking "an bhfuil cead agam..." a simple "are you ok" and a positive response is enough.


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    #262
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    twill wrote: »
    There seem to be a lot of men angrily denying that women could ever feel vulnerable or at risk in dating situations, however.

    Okie dokie. Some specifics please. Where in this thread have male posters been angrily denying that women could feel that way? :D


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    #263
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I don't know how sex works in your bedroom, but it's not a case of putting your hand up and asking "an bhfuil cead agam..." a simple "are you ok" and a positive response is enough.

    Em, that's exactly my point.. to a degree. But every single 'new act' is.. are you ok..?! Come off it. I really don't want to get into specifics to point out how ludicrous that is. And I don't mean randomly ramming a d!ldo up someone's ass.


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    #264
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    twill wrote: »
    Agree with the latter, but I think there was only one person seriously arguing your first point. All of the women on the thread except one agreed that it wasn't sexual assault, but that he was being pushy and overbearing. There seem to be a lot of men angrily denying that women could ever feel vulnerable or at risk in dating situations, however.

    Oh I didn't mean too many people here at all! The responses here are somewhat refreshing. I've just come from Twitter where the conversations would leave you banging your head off a table. But sure look nothing new there


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    #265
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The context of this thread is based on a one-sided article with very scattered reporting of events. But, yes... men shouldn't think that a woman who is naked in his home and has both given/received oral sex, and who hasn't told him to stop... would think that she was interested in having sex with him. Yup. Clearly misguided.
    While it's a good indication that she would be interested actually asking if she wanted to have sex would have been a good idea.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    And I can understand the uproar if the course follows the path of previous "Gender studies" programmes which were essentially "feminist studies", praising women and blaming men for everything, while dismissing the statistical evidence as being unrelated to their viewpoints.
    We have no idea what form consent classes in Ireland may take. The mere suggestion of young people being told that all participants should be enthusiastic and that silence doesn't equal consent seems to be enough to get some peoples' blood pressure right up.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Yes, you can. And you can inform that person that you don't wish to continue and stop. You can tell that person clearly.
    Yes you can. Or you can keep an eye on your sexual partner and be aware of whether or not they seem to be delighted to have your genitals in their mouth. That's a good thing for people to do too.


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    #266
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Em, that's exactly my point.. to a degree. But every single 'new act' is.. are you ok..?! Come off it. I really don't want to get into specifics to point out how ludicrous that is. And I don't mean randomly ramming a d!ldo up someone's ass.

    I mean I think it's ludicrous to think that oral sex or any other sex act is implicit consent to sexual intercourse so I guess we don't agree.

    What if you know the person likes a d!ldo up the ass, and that's been the next step for them in previous sexual encounters?


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    #267
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Em, that's exactly my point.. to a degree. But every single 'new act' is.. are you ok..?! Come off it. I really don't want to get into specifics to point out how ludicrous that is. And I don't mean randomly ramming a d!ldo up someone's ass.

    Are you totally unaware of the seductive power of asking 'would you like me to [insert sensuous description of sex act here]?' or 'do you like that/does it feel good?'


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    #268
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    The most difficult part for me is the part where she refused (through her actions as opposed to the spoken word) to grab his c##k 5-7 times....

    This is what is defined as a sexual assault (this is my forth time posting this definition)

    Sexual assault is an act in which a person sexually touches another person without that person's consent, or coerces or physically forces a person to engage in a sexual act against their will.

    Maybe I am wrong, maybe there is a different definition of a sexual assault, perhaps some other poster could provide one....

    He behaved like a d##k - it seems we can all agree with that.
    He behaved like a d##k in a very intimate, sexually charged incident that lasted about an hour...a sexual assault may only take seconds to commit....
    Every man needs to understand that behaving like a d##k in that senario is playing with fire...

    The line between just behaving like a di#k and committing a sexual assault is very very thin....


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    #269
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    kylith wrote: »
    While it's a good indication that she would be interested actually asking if she wanted to have sex would have been a good idea.

    Actually, the article states that he asked her multiple times which position she would like to do first... She could have refused any of those times, no?
    We have no idea what form consent classes in Ireland may take. The mere suggestion of young people being told that all participants should be enthusiastic and that silence doesn't equal consent seems to be enough to get some peoples' blood pressure right up.

    Not quite. There have been equality classes, and gender studies classes previously in Ireland where the male students felt that their gender was being targeted as responsible for every ill that befell a woman. And that the traditional feminist statistics (even those proven to be incorrect) were cited as fact.

    Now... I'd be supportive of consent classes if the classes were fair and balanced... with a clear guide to how consent is given. Men need specifics to start them thinking... Vague examples aren't going to do much beyond making them confused.

    But sure. Consent classes. Would love to see the material they propose to use. [Open mind]
    Yes you can. Or you can keep an eye on your sexual partner and be aware of whether or not they seem to be delighted to have your genitals in their mouth. That's a good thing for people to do too.

    I'd normally agree with you... but... things seem to be changing and the normal estimates for determining consent by body language aren't as reliable as they used to be.

    Posters are saying that he should have just understood her body language... but he didn't. That suggests that consent should be given verbally to avoid misunderstandings like the ones in the article. When told to stop for sex, he stopped. Makes me wonder would he have stopped for oral sex too... or the handjob if she had simply told him.


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    #270
    givyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,287 ✭✭✭givyjoe


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    I mean I think it's ludicrous to think that oral sex or any other sex act is implicit consent to sexual intercourse so I guess we don't agree.

    What if you know the person likes a d!ldo up the ass, and that's been the next step for them in previous sexual encounters?

    So that I don't misinterpret your words.. you think that right before intercourse, the next words should be '.. are you ok..?. Or would, '.. may I now enter you..' or '.. may i now straddle you..' be better? Should the person repeat this with each thrust to ensure continued consent?

    Some very strange sexual habits on here.

    It seems there are two types of folks who could do with consent classes, those who are unable to verbalise their feelings of discomfort and those that are pushy and unable to pick up on clear signs of unease indicating no consent. Everyone else in between seems to be are doing just fine.


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    #271
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Actually, the article states that he asked her multiple times which position she would like to do first... She could have refused any of those times, no?
    Asking 'where would you like me to fck you' is not asking 'would you like me to fck you'. She demurred and said 'next time':
    “Where do you want me to **** you?” while she was still seated on the countertop. She says she found the question tough to answer because she says she didn’t want to **** him at all.
    “I wasn’t really even thinking of that, I didn’t want to be engaged in that with him. But he kept asking, so I said, ‘Next time.’ And he goes, ‘Oh, you mean second date?’ and I go, ‘Oh, yeah, sure,’ and he goes, ‘Well, if I poured you another glass of wine now, would it count as our second date?’”

    That's pretty feckin' sleazy.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not quite. There have been equality classes, and gender studies classes previously in Ireland where the male students felt that their gender was being targeted as responsible for every ill that befell a woman. And that the traditional feminist statistics (even those proven to be incorrect) were cited as fact.

    Now... I'd be supportive of consent classes if the classes were fair and balanced... with a clear guide to how consent is given. Men need specifics to start them thinking... Vague examples aren't going to do much beyond making them confused.

    But sure. Consent classes. Would love to see the material they propose to use. [Open mind]
    Agreed


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'd normally agree with you... but... things seem to be changing and the normal estimates for determining consent by body language aren't as reliable as they used to be.

    Posters are saying that he should have just understood her body language... but he didn't. That suggests that consent should be given verbally to avoid misunderstandings like the ones in the article. When told to stop for sex, he stopped. Makes me wonder would he have stopped for oral sex too... or the handjob if she had simply told him.
    That's a question we'll never know the answer to.


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