Should religious paraphernalia be removed from polling stations on the day of voting?

Akrasia · 13-01-2018 4:12pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But are voters not being subconsciously influenced to vote one way or the other for weeks before hand by the campaigners for each side?
Are you seriously suggesting that churches and mosques and synagogues be asked to cover up the fronts of their buildings on polling day in case their adherents are swayed?
Or is it just Christians your bothered about?

The research suggests that any religion would have the same effect.

There was a study about 11 years ago called 'God is watching you'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17760777

Basically, imagine if you were strongly in favour of repealing the 8th. but your beloved granny was strongly opposed to it. If you are voting in a secret ballot, you can vote your conscious, but if your granny came into the polling booth with you, you'd be more conflicted, should you vote the way you want, or vote to avoid upsetting your dear sweet grandmother.

Well, to religious believers, god is everywhere, so if they are reminded of this, even subconsciously in the moments before they vote, then this may affect a certain percentage of votes.
This heuristic is short term, it only applies in the immediate moments before the decision and act of voting is carried out.

The effect is subconscious, the voter isn't aware that it exists, but the brain operates on two levels, the 'fast' part of the brain makes snap decisions and is impulsive, while the slow part of the brain is more thoughtful and contemplative but is also lazy and likes to let the fast part of the brain do most of the work.
(Read Daniel Kahneman's excellent book 'Thinking Fast and Slow" or have a look at Dan Ariel's work, (he has lectures on youtube) for a more detailed account of how this works.

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:16pm

Oldtree wrote: »

That is a good point about religious holidays. Maby more people would vote if referenda were not on those days.

The gaa is an inclusive organisation and afaik there should be no religious iconography in the local club.

I think you don’t know much about the GAA. Who said there should be no religious iconography, or any other type of iconographry, in any privately funded club?!?

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:17pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Oldtree you claim you're not superstitious, and that's fair enough.

Then what's all this then about your objection to there being bibles present at polling stations on the basis that it might influence the results of a referendum one way or the other?

I'd suggest that was indicative of someone who was highly superstitious - the presence of a bible being a bad omen or some such

Lol very good

No, I am concerned that bibles and other religious paraphernalia being present is not an inclusive thing to do. This is merely another step in separating church from state. I would not stop someone bringing in their Bible with then in their pocket if they wanted to. as long as it stayed there.

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:21pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I think you don’t know much about the GAA. Who said there should be no religious iconography, or any other type of iconographry, in any privately funded club?!?

What is in a privately funded club is their business yes but the gaa proports and strives for inclusively:

Everyone in the club will respect the rights, dignity and worth of each person, regardless of ability, age, culture or ethnic origin, gender, sexual orientation, or religious belief.

One eyed Jack · 13-01-2018 4:22pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Well, to religious believers, god is everywhere

This reminds me of an encounter a couple of years ago now where the local parish priest was giving the annual mass at the Scouts, and he met me there and says - "Jesus you're everywhere!", "Like someone else we know, eh Father?"... He was not amused :pac:

(this was after we'd met at mass, at a local GAA match, at the school board of management meeting and now at the scouts, all in the space of a week :pac:)

Will I Am Not · 13-01-2018 4:23pm

Oldtree wrote: »

That is a good point about religious holidays. Maby more people would vote if referenda were not on those days.

The gaa is an inclusive organisation and afaik there should be no religious iconography in the local club.

Nearly every GAA club I can think of within a 20 mile radius of me is called Saint something or other :pac:

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:24pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This reminds me of an encounter a couple of years ago now where the local parish priest was giving the annual mass at the Scouts, and he met me there and says - "Jesus you're everywhere!", "Like someone else we know, eh Father?"... He was not amused :pac:

(this was after we'd met at mass, at a local GAA match, at the school board of management meeting and now at the scouts, all in the space of a week :pac:)

Your name isn't Michael is it?

(like unto god)

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:26pm

The Fake Sheikh wrote: »

Nearly every GAA club I can think of within a 20 mile radius of me is called Saint something or other :pac:

This is indicative of the churches influence on our past. Everything is called Saint something or other.

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:26pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Lol very good

No, I am concerned that bibles and other religious paraphernalia being present is not an inclusive thing to do. This is merely another step in separating church from state. I would not stop someone bringing in their Bible with then in their pocket if they wanted to. as long as it stayed there.

What would be better is if there was an airport style body search outside the polling station.
For fear of causing offense or undue influence, anyone wearing a crucifix or scapula or carrying rosary beads etc will have to surrender it outside and can pick it back up again when they leave.
(I’m unsure as to wether you extend this to the iconography of other religions or if it’s just Christianity you find offensive or if you’ve ever even been exposed to any other cultures religion, you don’t say).

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:29pm

Oldtree wrote: »

This is indicative of the churches influence on our past. Everything is called Saint something or other.

But a minute ago you said that they “should” be religious icon free? Why should they?

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:34pm

splinter65 wrote: »

What would be better is if there was an airport style body search outside the polling station.
For fear of causing offense or undue influence, anyone wearing a crucifix or scapula or carrying rosary beads etc will have to surrender it outside and can pick it back up again when they leave.
(I’m unsure as to wether you extend this to the iconography of other religions or if it’s just Christianity you find offensive or if you’ve ever even been exposed to any other cultures religion, you don’t say).

Now searches, that's a step too far.

If a person is flag waving the scapula going into the polling station then yes that is inappropriate. To have it on their person is fine.

No I would not restrict this to Christian paraphernalia.

I don't find religious pharapanalia offensive, not sure why you would think that I do.

And yes I'm well traveled, are you?

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 4:36pm

splinter65 wrote: »

But a minute ago you said that they “should” be religious icon free? Why should they?

I'm not sure what you are saying?

Chiparus · 13-01-2018 4:40pm

https://www.irishcatholic.com/election-official-removes-crucifix-from-parish-hall/

The (Catholic) Empire strikes back.

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:42pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Now searches, that's a step too far.

If a person is flag waving the scapula going into the polling station then yes that is inappropriate. To have it on their person is fine.

No I would not restrict this to Christian paraphernalia.

I don't find religious pharapanalia offensive, not sure why you would think that I do.

And yes I'm well traveled, are you?

I’m quite well travelled, I like it a lot.
So it’s only on voting days and within, say 100m of the polling station that personal religious decoration needs to be kept under wraps.
Any specifics about religious tattoos on sunny summer days?
Pussy hats and Repeal jumpers?

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:47pm

Oldtree wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are saying?

I’m saying that you seem to accept that the clubs name may be associated with former religious times and accept that it doesn’t need to be changed , but assume that all religious iconography within the clubhouse has been removed. (Incidentally it hasn’t been, nor will it be).
Your not very consistent in your Chinese style banning of religion, sorry, “inclusivity”.

One eyed Jack · 13-01-2018 4:47pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Lol very good

No, I am concerned that bibles and other religious paraphernalia being present is not an inclusive thing to do. This is merely another step in separating church from state. I would not stop someone bringing in their Bible with then in their pocket if they wanted to. as long as it stayed there.

Genuinely I think there's too much being made of it, and that's not just because I'm religious myself, but contrary to what appears to be popular belief amongst people who are non-religious, the influence of people's religious beliefs upon their thinking and voting preferences more often than not contradicts non-religious people's beliefs about religious people.

The result of the marriage equality referendum being a good example of this phenomenon, and that's why I questioned Akrasia's earlier asking would Christians have any objection to polling stations in Rape Crisis Centres. Personally I couldn't see how Christians would be influenced one way or the other, but if Akrasia's claims of influence were to hold true, then it's just as likely that some Christians would be influenced in a positive way, and some in a negative way.

Therefore I wouldn't see it as making any difference, or it was a terrible analogy to begin with, and that's the way I see the presence of Bibles at polling stations - I don't see them as having the influence on Christians that non-religious people assume they should. I think non-religious people's fear of the presence of bibles influencing the outcome of any referendum is not only presumptuous, but it's entirely irrational.

AudreyHepburn · 13-01-2018 4:49pm

No of course not - what actual differenc does the presence of a religious item have on your vote? If you’re goung to allow something as simple as say a crucifix hanging on the wall to bother you that much you really have little to worry about.

padd b1975 · 13-01-2018 4:50pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I think you don’t know much about the GAA. Who said there should be no religious iconography, or any other type of iconographry, in any privately funded club?!?

Sure half the clubs in the country are named after saints.

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:54pm

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

No of course not - what actual differenc does the presence of a religious item have on your vote? If you’re goung to allow something as simple as say a crucifix hanging on the wall to bother you that much you really have little to worry about.

Oldtree is terribly concerned about citizens not as “strong minded” as he and the other atheists being in danger of being “influenced” by scapulars and crucifixes and the like.
Another poster is afraid that the parish secretary has X-ray vision and will punish him if he votes in favor of appeal.
Yet another poster feels brave for having voted against the church in another referendum despite the terror of the Cotpus Christi procession taking place just as he entered the polling booth.
Is it any wonder people laugh at us?

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 4:57pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sure half the clubs in the country are named after saints.

They can name themselves after London Underground Stations if they like. Private clubs, private rules, if you don’t like it, join something else.

padd b1975 · 13-01-2018 4:58pm

splinter65 wrote: »

They can name themselves after London Underground Stations if they like. Private clubs, private rules, if you don’t like it, join something else.

Absolutely.

It still won't stop the likes of Nugent pontificating from the moral high ground.

Chiparus · 13-01-2018 4:59pm

splinter65 wrote: »

They can name themselves after London Underground Stations if they like. Private clubs, private rules, if you don’t like it, join something else.

or dead terrorists/freedom fighters

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 5:01pm

Chiparus wrote: »

or dead terrorists/freedom fighters

I don’t see why not.

Akrasia · 13-01-2018 5:04pm

padd b1975 wrote: »

Absolutely.

It still won't stop the likes of Nugent pontificating from the moral high ground.

Michael Nugent doesn't care what GAA clubs are called. He does care about where the polling stations are because it impacts the integrity of our democratic process.

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 5:06pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m saying that you seem to accept that the clubs name may be associated with former religious times and accept that it doesn’t need to be changed , but assume that all religious iconography within the clubhouse has been removed. (Incidentally it hasn’t been, nor will it be).
Your not very consistent in your Chinese style banning of religion, sorry, “inclusivity”.

I didn't say the name needs to be changed as that's up to the members, not for me to dictate what they do. There is no religious iconography in my local club, but there is in others it will be removed in the future.
I do not intend the banning of religion, merely the separation of church and state.
You seem to begging down a non inclusive rabbit hole whereas I see mine as inclusive.

Oldtree · 13-01-2018 5:12pm

splinter65 wrote: »

They can name themselves after London Underground Stations if they like. Private clubs, private rules, if you don’t like it, join something else.

Now that's silly. Again an exclusive notion. Why not suggest that if someone dosn't like the name then they petition for a name change? Why is it always "our way or the highway" rather than a compromise of some description?

The Bishop Basher · 13-01-2018 5:12pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Michael Nugent doesn't care what GAA clubs are called. He does care about where the polling stations are because it impacts the integrity of our democratic process.

Jesus wept...

This is right up there on a par with the ****e and drivel we’ve had to listen to from the church for the last 50 years..

When are we ever going to grow up and start thinking for ourselves in this country..

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 5:12pm

Oldtree wrote: »

I didn't say the name needs to be changed as that's up to the members, not for me to dictate what they do. There us no religious iconography in my local club, but there is in others it will be removed in the future.
I do not intend the banning of religion, merely the separation of church and state.
You seem to begging down a non inclusive rabbit hole whereas I see mine as inclusive.

If your club has voted to remove religious iconography from its premises then that was a democratic vote by the members, but I can’t see how you would be interested or concerned about what other clubs do?

splinter65 · 13-01-2018 5:14pm

Swanner wrote: »

Jesus wept...

This is right up there on a par with the ****e and drivel we’ve had to listen to from the church for the last 50 years..

When are we ever going to grow up and start thinking for ourselves in this country..

It really is. The Church stepped in to replace the English when they left.
Now Nugent as Dev is waiting to replace the church with Atheism.
Pardon the pun, but may God have mercy on all our souls.

padd b1975 · 13-01-2018 5:14pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Michael Nugent doesn't care what GAA clubs are called. He does care about where the polling stations are because it impacts the integrity of our democratic process.

I'm sure if you asked him he'd find some way of being offended.

He's whinged about much less.

Should religious paraphernalia be removed from polling stations on the day of voting?

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