US ETFs no longer purchasable in Europe

jive · 09-01-2018 5:55pm

So is there any Non-UCITS US ETFs available? All my holdings are Vanguard so this is a total pain in the hole.

ronivek · 09-01-2018 6:39pm

Hey guys,

So is the only option for now (until/unless KIDs are completed appropriately for them to be listed again on Degiro) to go with a US-based brokerage if we want to avoid the 8 year disposal issue?

Would anyone have any recommendations for a brokerage where that's possible? The few I've looked at all require US residency...

wasabi · 09-01-2018 8:39pm

I'm in process of setting up with interactive brokers. 10K USD minimum deposit to activate account, though.

Cute Hoor · 09-01-2018 9:52pm

ronivek wrote: »

Hey guys,

So is the only option for now (until/unless KIDs are completed appropriately for them to be listed again on Degiro) to go with a US-based brokerage if we want to avoid the 8 year disposal issue?

Would anyone have any recommendations for a brokerage where that's possible? The few I've looked at all require US residency...

Firstrade ($2.95 per trade), TDAmeritrade ($6.95 per trade), and IB (0.1% with minimum for some exchanges), all take Irish clients. A piece of cake to set up.

TDAmeritrade do some commission free ETFs but no Vanguard as far as I can see
https://research.tdameritrade.com/grid/public/etfs/commissionfree/commissionfree.asp

q85dw7osi4lebg · 09-01-2018 10:45pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Firstrade ($2.95 per trade), TDAmeritrade ($6.95 per trade), and IB (0.1% with minimum for some exchanges), all take Irish clients. A piece of cake to set up.

TDAmeritrade do some commission free ETFs but no Vanguard as far as I can see
https://research.tdameritrade.com/grid/public/etfs/commissionfree/commissionfree.asp

Any recommendations on which of the above is best in terms of the trading platform etc?

Cute Hoor · 09-01-2018 11:11pm

Mitchell Short Salesperson wrote: »

Any recommendations on which of the above is best in terms of the trading platform etc?

All 3 are grand but I find the Firstrade website the most user friendly and I find them very good to deal with, wouldn't be critical of any of them though.

Firstrade have a special offer now, refer a friend and both get $50 if the friend signs up, if you're interested pm me, no pressure.
https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/promos/referafriend/

q85dw7osi4lebg · 10-01-2018 2:07am

Cute Hoor wrote: »

All 3 are grand but I find the Firstrade website the most user friendly and I find them very good to deal with, wouldn't be critical of any of them though.

Firstrade have a special offer now, refer a friend and both get $50 if the friend signs up, if you're interested pm me, no pressure.
https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/promos/referafriend/

Thanks, will do some homework.

jive · 10-01-2018 12:15pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Firstrade ($2.95 per trade), TDAmeritrade ($6.95 per trade), and IB (0.1% with minimum for some exchanges), all take Irish clients. A piece of cake to set up.

TDAmeritrade do some commission free ETFs but no Vanguard as far as I can see
https://research.tdameritrade.com/grid/public/etfs/commissionfree/commissionfree.asp

Estate tax issues relevant for these accounts I assume (40% on anything exceeding >$60k)?

Revenue's deemed disposal rule is such a pain. With the pension crisis on the horizon I don't see how they can still insist on those penal rules for private investments.

wasabi · 10-01-2018 1:03pm

jive wrote: »

Estate tax issues relevant for these accounts I assume (40% on anything exceeding >$60k)?

Revenue's deemed disposal rule is such a pain. With the pension crisis on the horizon I don't see how they can still insist on those penal rules for private investments.

AIUI the the estate tax issue is the same for US domiciled shares/ETFs/funds regardless of whether held in a European or US based brokerage.

The deemed disposal is bloody annoying. We should all complain to our TDs TBH. Squeaky wheel and all that.

I would also dearly love a tax-free dividend allowance similar to the UK has and to increase the 1270EUR CGT allowance - to be at least doubled, considering it hasn't been touched in something like 20 years.

And much more transparency in pension fund fees, although I guess KIDs do help here. Haven't seen any KID for my Irish Life pension funds yet though!

Dardania · 10-01-2018 1:12pm

wasabi wrote: »

jive wrote: »

Estate tax issues relevant for these accounts I assume (40% on anything exceeding >$60k)?

Revenue's deemed disposal rule is such a pain. With the pension crisis on the horizon I don't see how they can still insist on those penal rules for private investments.

AIUI the the estate tax issue is the same for US domiciled shares/ETFs/funds regardless of whether held in a European or US based brokerage.

The deemed disposal is bloody annoying. We should all complain to our TDs TBH. Squeaky wheel and all that.

I would also dearly love a tax-free dividend allowance similar to the UK has and to increase the 1270EUR CGT allowance - to be at least doubled, considering it hasn't been touched in something like 20 years.

And much more transparency in pension fund fees, although I guess KIDs do help here. Haven't seen any KID for my Irish Life pension funds yet though!

By my calc, it should be doubled in order to match inflation since the original figure was legalised - I think it was 1000 punts in the mid 90s

jive · 10-01-2018 2:24pm

wasabi wrote: »

AIUI the the estate tax issue is the same for US domiciled shares/ETFs/funds regardless of whether held in a European or US based brokerage.

The deemed disposal is bloody annoying. We should all complain to our TDs TBH. Squeaky wheel and all that.

I would also dearly love a tax-free dividend allowance similar to the UK has and to increase the 1270EUR CGT allowance - to be at least doubled, considering it hasn't been touched in something like 20 years.

And much more transparency in pension fund fees, although I guess KIDs do help here. Haven't seen any KID for my Irish Life pension funds yet though!

Agreed, definitely should get in contact with TDs.

UK is has a far fairer system. CGT £11,300 + £5,000 dividends exemption. ISA £20K investment in stocks/share per tax year exempt from CGT. No deemed disposal nonsense. 20% CGT for higher earners and 10% for sole traders.

Ireland = €1270 CGT, rate is 33%/41%, 8 year deemed disposal rule, no dividend exemption.

You literally get absolutely hammered with taxes; it's not hard to see why people buy up property to let out left, right and centre.

There is absolutely zero incentive to save and invest in stocks/shares in Ireland.

Gordon Gekko · 10-01-2018 2:58pm

jive wrote: »

You literally get absolutely hammered with taxes; it's not hard to see why people buy up property to let out left, right and centre.

There is absolutely zero incentive to save and invest in stocks/shares in Ireland.

This is exactly what the powers that be, acting through Revenue, want. Politicians know that we have a natural inclination for property - an easy way to ensure reelection is to engineer the property market so that it is artificially inflated/propped up by disincentivising all other investment.

You would think that given the experience of the property crash, they should be incentivising investment in any asset class other than property - but that will never happen here because our political class, vested interests, and Revenue continue to favour property.

Cute Hoor · 11-01-2018 12:07am

IB, TDAmeritrade and Firstrade all do commission free ETFs - details here
http://etfdb.com/type/commission-free/interactive-brokers/
https://research.tdameritrade.com/grid/public/etfs/commissionfree/commissionfree.asp
https://www.firstrade.com/content/en-us/promos/freeetfs/

Gordon Gekko · 14-01-2018 11:16am

wasabi wrote: »

And much more transparency in pension fund fees, although I guess KIDs do help here. Haven't seen any KID for my Irish Life pension funds yet though!

I think pensions are specifically excluded from the remit of PRIIPs. I wonder why

:rolleyes::mad:

Shai · 14-01-2018 11:30am

Pension funds are indeed excluded. I'm raising a stink with Zurich Life though to get a proper Total Expense Ratio number instead of their useless Annual Management Charge numbers.

A question for the people here with Ameritrade accounts. Could one of yous confirm whether as an Irish resident you are able to buy Vanguard ETFs (VTI, VOO, ...) with your Ameritrade account?

wasabi · 14-01-2018 12:55pm

Gordon Gekko wrote: »

I think pensions are specifically excluded from the remit of PRIIPs. I wonder why :rolleyes::mad:

I am simultaneously not surprised and yet also kind of shocked. IMO fees on pensions ought to be a bigger scandal than people getting kicked off their tracker mortgages. It's probably costing more.
Except mortgages are for everyone and private pensions are for fatcats, so populist politicians and media don't care.

Cute Hoor · 14-01-2018 2:05pm

Shai wrote: »

A question for the people here with Ameritrade accounts. Could one of yous confirm whether as an Irish resident you are able to buy Vanguard ETFs (VTI, VOO, ...) with your Ameritrade account?

Yes you can, I've just placed a buy order for VOO on TDAmeritrade, no problem.

Shai · 14-01-2018 4:12pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Yes you can, I've just placed a buy order for VOO on TDAmeritrade, no problem.

Poifect. Would you recommend Ameritrade for a buy-and-hold investor? Or would you steer people towards another US brokerage? From what I've read, it seems they're pretty solid. Per trade fees are higher than DeGiro of course, but otherwise there don't seem to be any fees outside of that. Am I right in that? Or are there fees hidden in the small print somewhere?

Cute Hoor · 14-01-2018 4:48pm

Shai wrote: »

Poifect. Would you recommend Ameritrade for a buy-and-hold investor? Or would you steer people towards another US brokerage? From what I've read, it seems they're pretty solid. Per trade fees are higher than DeGiro of course, but otherwise there don't seem to be any fees outside of that. Am I right in that? Or are there fees hidden in the small print somewhere?

Yea I'd recommend Ameritrade, no bother. Their fee per trade is $6.95 and there are no other hidden fees (not that I've come across anyway). I'd have a slight preference for Firstrade, fees are only $2.95 per trade, no hidden fees that I know of and I prefer their website, personal choice and nothing wrong with Ameritrade's website.

Shai · 14-01-2018 5:08pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Yea I'd recommend Ameritrade, no bother. Their fee per trade is $6.95 and there are no other hidden fees (not that I've come across anyway). I'd have a slight preference for Firstrade, fees are only $2.95 per trade, no hidden fees that I know of and I prefer their website, personal choice and nothing wrong with Ameritrade's website.

Cheers. I heard Firstrade has terrible customer service and I just don't want to deal with that for now. I get US stock put into a Morgan Stanley account as part of my job's compensation. My plan is to periodically sell the US stock through Morgan Stanley for US dollars and then wire the proceeds directly to Ameritrade where I will use the dollars to buy-and-hold Vanguard ETFs. That way I wont have to deal with currency exchange fees, and I'll get to hold US ETFs instead of UCITS ETFs.

Thanks again!

ScissorPaperRock · 14-01-2018 5:10pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Yea I'd recommend Ameritrade, no bother. Their fee per trade is $6.95 and there are no other hidden fees (not that I've come across anyway). I'd have a slight preference for Firstrade, fees are only $2.95 per trade, no hidden fees that I know of and I prefer their website, personal choice and nothing wrong with Ameritrade's website.

Is there a reason (that you don't mind sharing) that you are using both?

Cute Hoor · 14-01-2018 5:19pm

Shai wrote: »

Cheers. I heard Firstrade has terrible customer service and I just don't want to deal with that for now. I get US stock put into a Morgan Stanley account as part of my job's compensation. My plan is to periodically sell the US stock through Morgan Stanley for US dollars and then wire the proceeds directly to Ameritrade where I will use the dollars to buy-and-hold Vanguard ETFs. That way I wont have to deal with currency exchange fees, and I'll get to hold US ETFs instead of UCITS ETFs.

Thanks again!

Sounds good.
Funnily enough I would have said that the Firsttrade customer service was excellent but that is from fairly limited interaction with them.

Cute Hoor · 14-01-2018 5:32pm

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Is there a reason (that you don't mind sharing) that you are using both?

Absolutely no bother and no great mystery about it. I have had an Ameritrade account for many years, at the time they were probably the only US broker taking Irish customers, and the cost was $9.99 per trade at the time. Then along came Zecco, took Irish customers and no cost to trade so why not sign up with them, nothing to lose. They gradually introduced charges, but still free if you had sufficient assets in your account. So they became my first choice for trading US stocks but still held my Ameritrade account, no compelling reason to close it. Since then,Zecco has meatamorphosed to TradeKing (who didn't take on any new non-US clients), from there to Ally (who also didn't take on any new non-US clients) and from there to Firstrade. All of this was absolutely painless for me btw, no effort required on my part. So effectively I fell into Firstrade, but very happy with them so far and use them ahead of Ameritrade.

BogleIreland · 15-01-2018 1:43pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Yea I'd recommend Ameritrade, no bother. Their fee per trade is $6.95 and there are no other hidden fees (not that I've come across anyway). I'd have a slight preference for Firstrade, fees are only $2.95 per trade, no hidden fees that I know of and I prefer their website, personal choice and nothing wrong with Ameritrade's website.

Do Irish investors still pay the 15% withholding tax on dividends paid to US brokerage account from US domiciled etf's and claim a credit against Irish income tax?

Is there any Irish tax disadvantage in buying and holding US domiciled etf's in US brokerage account instead of non-us domiciled brokerage account other then the estate tax issue.

Bateman · 15-01-2018 3:20pm

I'm surprised it took as long as it did for the brokerage houses to figure out that it wasn't their responsibility to "get the documentation sorted",, and that it was the ETF issuer's responsibility to issue a KIID if they believed it was worth their while. I'm not surprised however that Vanguard decided it wasn't worth their while as like someone said, they have gone through the process of launching UCITS versions of their most popular products...

Cute Hoor · 15-01-2018 7:36pm

BogleIreland wrote: »

Do Irish investors still pay the 15% withholding tax on dividends paid to US brokerage account from US domiciled etf's and claim a credit against Irish income tax?

Yea you fill out a W-8BEN form (simple one page document) and the broker then deducts the witholding tax from any dividends received. Allowance is made for this witholding tax paid when you do your annual Form 11 for Revenue.

BogleIreland wrote: »

Is there any Irish tax disadvantage in buying and holding US domiciled etf's in US brokerage account instead of non-us domiciled brokerage account other then the estate tax issue.

Not that I'm aware of.

Taylor365 · 17-01-2018 8:58pm

Ah stupid me.....

Well i've just placed an order to return the funds I deposited last week as they're useless now...

Looking at TDAmeritrade, what are they're fees and charges like?

Cute Hoor · 18-01-2018 12:17am

Taylor365 wrote: »

Ah stupid me.....

Well i've just placed an order to return the funds I deposited last week as they're useless now...

Looking at TDAmeritrade, what are they're fees and charges like?

$6.95 per trade, no other fees/charges

gavmcg92 · 18-01-2018 12:22am

Bateman wrote: »

I'm surprised it took as long as it did for the brokerage houses to figure out that it wasn't their responsibility to "get the documentation sorted",, and that it was the ETF issuer's responsibility to issue a KIID if they believed it was worth their while. I'm not surprised however that Vanguard decided it wasn't worth their while as like someone said, they have gone through the process of launching UCITS versions of their most popular products...

Do we know for sure that Vanguard will not be supplying KIIDs to the brokerages? For Ireland I would imagine the vast majority of people are invested in the US domiciled products and not their UCITS products.

Will be looking to transfer over another injection of cash and of course don't want to sent it to Degiro if there is no sign of this issue being rectified.

keane2097 · 18-01-2018 10:02am

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Do we know for sure that Vanguard will not be supplying KIIDs to the brokerages? For Ireland I would imagine the vast majority of people are invested in the US domiciled products and not their UCITS products.

Will be looking to transfer over another injection of cash and of course don't want to sent it to Degiro if there is no sign of this issue being rectified.

Presumably if they intended to supply the documentation they would have already done so. This regulation was well flagged in advance.

Shai · 18-01-2018 11:50am

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Do we know for sure that Vanguard will not be supplying KIIDs to the brokerages? For Ireland I would imagine the vast majority of people are invested in the US domiciled products and not their UCITS products.

Will be looking to transfer over another injection of cash and of course don't want to sent it to Degiro if there is no sign of this issue being rectified.

They will not. I emailed their London office and they confirmed that there are no plans for providing KIIDS for their US ETFs.

Frogdog · 18-01-2018 4:45pm

Shai wrote: »

They will not. I emailed their London office and they confirmed that there are no plans for providing KIIDS for their US ETFs.

Does anyone know if other ETF providers will produce KIIDs? Or any that already have? In particular, those that are listed on DeGiro's PDF of ETFs that qualify for free fees?

gavmcg92 · 18-01-2018 7:11pm

Shai wrote: »

They will not. I emailed their London office and they confirmed that there are no plans for providing KIIDS for their US ETFs.

Right I guess it's off to TD then. So is the 6.50 charge the only charge for ETF buy and hold trading? Do they have an exchange charge like Degiro or any other sneaky charges?

Shai · 18-01-2018 7:37pm

Wish I could tell ya

My passport is currently being renewed, so until I get my new one, no Ameritrade for me.

darrenmck10 · 18-01-2018 8:42pm

Does anyone know what the fees are like when transferring funds from Bank of Ireland to TDAmeritrade?

I emailed TDAmeritrade and they said that they don't accept deposits from money transfer sites such as transferwise.

Also has anyone looked into UK Investment Trusts? Apparently these are taxed like regular shares.

Cute Hoor · 18-01-2018 11:42pm

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Right I guess it's off to TD then. So is the 6.50 charge the only charge for ETF buy and hold trading? Do they have an exchange charge like Degiro or any other sneaky charges?

No other charges, but obviously your account is in $

Cute Hoor · 18-01-2018 11:53pm

darrenmck10 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the fees are like when transferring funds from Bank of Ireland to TDAmeritrade?

I emailed TDAmeritrade and they said that they don't accept deposits from money transfer sites such as transferwise.

Yea they won't take deposits from Transferwise or CurrencyFair, I presume Revolut can't be used either. I'm not aware of any way round going through BOI, needless to say the rate you get won't be great but at least it is just a once-off charge.

Cute Hoor · 19-01-2018 12:09am

Has anybody received a dividend on their US ETFs this year from DeGiro?

Dardania · 19-01-2018 9:34am

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Has anybody received a dividend on their US ETFs this year from DeGiro?

Yes. Works fine

q85dw7osi4lebg · 19-01-2018 10:04am

Cute Hoor wrote: »

Has anybody received a dividend on their US ETFs this year from DeGiro?

Yep VOO was about 3 weeks ago for me.

cdlmarie · 19-01-2018 3:41pm

Dardania wrote: »

Yes. Works fine

I can't find mine actually.
It says I received them on the 27th of December but I have no idea where it is.
I know some mentioned the cash funds but I already had money in there and I~ can't find how to see its history.

cdlmarie · 19-01-2018 3:47pm

Should I feel the shares I have IN VTI?Or is there any chance that Vanguard will provide the documentation at some point?

AlmightyCushion · 19-01-2018 4:07pm

cdlmarie wrote: »

Should I feel the shares I have IN VTI?Or is there any chance that Vanguard will provide the documentation at some point?

You don't need to sell them if you don't want. Even if Vanguard never provide the documentation you can still continue to hold it and sell it whenever you want to.

cdlmarie · 19-01-2018 4:15pm

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

You don't need to sell them if you don't want. Even if Vanguard never provide the documentation you can still continue to hold it and sell it whenever you want to.

Yes, I could hold for ever and wait and see I the value increases...
I could use the money just about now so I'll see what I'll do.
thanks!

Cute Hoor · 19-01-2018 4:56pm

Mitchell Short Salesperson wrote: »

Yep VOO was about 3 weeks ago for me.

The VOO dividend was paid in 2017 (29th December) though, before new rules came into effect.

q85dw7osi4lebg · 19-01-2018 6:00pm

Cute Hoor wrote: »

The VOO dividend was paid in 2017 (29th December) though, before new rules came into effect.

I stand corrected !

TiGeR KiNgS · 19-01-2018 11:40pm

Is VOO still purchasable on Davy's ?

gavmcg92 · 20-01-2018 7:39pm

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

Is VOO still purchasable on Davy's ?

Would doubt it.

TiGeR KiNgS · 21-01-2018 1:04am

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Would doubt it.

Thanks.

If its not purchasable in any other stock brokers why is there a hissy fit in the posts above about pulling money out of DeGiro ? A

q85dw7osi4lebg · 21-01-2018 1:06am

TiGeR KiNgS wrote: »

Thanks.

If its not purchasable in any other stock brokers why is there a hissy fit in the posts above about pulling money out of DeGiro ? A

Because it's possible to open an account with a US broker and purchase through there instead.

US ETFs no longer purchasable in Europe

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