US ETFs no longer purchasable in Europe

TheSheriff

This might be a silly Q - hoping a Degiro user can help.

If i am trying to sell some of these US EFTs that I have, how do I find them?

For instance, I have a position on US VEU, however, when I go to find it under EFTs in Degiro I can only find the UCITS version.

Am I missing something?

Any help appreciated !

Edit - Nothing to see here, figured this out!

q85dw7osi4lebg

It's approaching the buy time of the month for me. Not really set on opening an account with a US broker for various reasons, despite a few good suggestions from previous posts. Tempted to go UCITS route, feeling queezy.

kokiyou

Mitchell Short Salesperson wrote: »

It's approaching the buy time of the month for me. Not really set on opening an account with a US broker for various reasons, despite a few good suggestions from previous posts. Tempted to go UCITS route, feeling queezy.

What reasons if you don't mind? I was thinking of opening one, are there disadvantages (apart from fees) over DeGiro and other local brokers?

q85dw7osi4lebg

kokiyou wrote: »

What reasons if you don't mind? I was thinking of opening one, are there disadvantages (apart from fees) over DeGiro and other local brokers?

My main reason is usability based on online reviews. I'd also prefer to use only one broker, and would prefer to not be dealing more in USD than needs be. I've a nice portfolio built on DeGiro now and cannot envision myself enjoying the use of two separate brokers / trading systems. I'm trying to streamline my taxes as much as possible too.

UCITS is a nightmare but I'm thinking after currency fluctuations and FX charges that while I'd still be worse off, it may be worthwhile to save on hassle.

I probably sound mad in the head!

kokiyou

Thanks, same feelings. I guess UCITS might be ok if you are only investing in it once or twice a year.

Shai

kokiyou wrote: »

Thanks, same feelings. I guess UCITS might be ok if you are only investing in it once or twice a year.

Don't forget that loss offset for UCITS ETFs works differently than for US ETFs.

darrenmck10

Have you guys looked into UK investment trusts?
Management fees are higher than etfs, but nothing too crazy.
I think they are taxed like regular shares too.

Foreign and Colonial Investment Trust has a globally diversified portfolio of 500 stocks. FRCL is available on Degiro.
https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/251

Gear9992

darrenmck10 wrote: »

Have you guys looked into UK investment trusts?
Management fees are higher than etfs, but nothing too crazy.
I think they are taxed like regular shares too.

Foreign and Colonial Investment Trust has a globally diversified portfolio of 500 stocks. FRCL is available on Degiro.
https://www.theaic.co.uk/companydata/251

You may be onto something here, it seems like UK Investment Trusts are not UCITS funds and some of them have relatively low fees (some are around 0.5% per annum, so higher than US Vanguard or iShares ETFs). I found a website that screens Investment Funds by sector, fees etc here, so I'll have to do some research over the coming days.

The way I see it, there are 5 ways to deal with the current issues with US ETFs:

1. European-domiciled (UCITS) ETFs:
Pros: Accumulating ETFs, currency hedged ETFs
Cons: 8 year deemed disposal, Income tax instead of capital gains tax, no tax credits for gains, no offsetting gains and loss

2. Manually try to put together a portfolio of stocks that tracks the index you want, e.g. for the S&P500, buying something diverse like Bershire Hathaway (BRK.B) or BAM, or a number of blue cap stocks:
Pros: Low fees (higher if you have to manage a large number of stocks however), low tax
Cons: Difficult to manage, difficult to track an index manually

3. Create account with US broker:
Pros: Can purchase US ETFs again, same as before.
Cons: May be expensive/difficult converting Euros to Dollars and transferring the dollars to your broker account (and vice versa when you sell), and I imagine you have to jump through a few hoops to open a US account.

4. UK Investment Trusts:
Pros: similar to US ETFs in terms of tax, can purchase on Degiro
Cons: Higher fees (broker fees + fund fees), not as diverse as ETFs, not a whole lot of cheap investment trusts out there

5. Wait and pray that the US ETFs are restored soon.

I'm leaning towards the investment trusts at the moment, at least until some US ETF's are (hopefully) brought back.

darrenmck10

Great post Gear, I think that sums up the situation pretty well.

I was going to go with the US broker option, but having a euro trading account on Degiro makes accounting a lot easier.
Cons of holding dollars in your brokerage:https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/tax-on-us-dividends-and-currency.206708/

I'm hoping to find proper confirmation that UK investment trusts are taxed as CGT before I jump in.
Can't find anything solid from revenue about them.

q85dw7osi4lebg

Sold off my US ETF's yesterday and bought UCITS this morning. Surprisingly cheap move to make given DeGiro's fees. Going to start a spreadsheet and track them all from the offset to make life easier. Will probably sell all before 8 years is up in order to make a simple tax payment rather than working out the monthly deemed disposal tax come that time.

Shai

Mitchell Short Salesperson wrote: »

Sold off my US ETF's yesterday and bought UCITS this morning. Surprisingly cheap move to make given DeGiro's fees. Going to start a spreadsheet and track them all from the offset to make life easier. Will probably sell all before 8 years is up in order to make a simple tax payment rather than working out the monthly deemed disposal tax come that time.

can I ask why you want to buy UCITS instead of staying with your US ETFs?

q85dw7osi4lebg

Shai wrote: »

can I ask why you want to buy UCITS instead of staying with your US ETFs?

Just didn't fancy having different holdings of essentially the same product under the one account. Different tax situations for each etc.

JungleMartin

Has anyone looked into non-US non-UCITS ETFs and whether accumulating (non-distributing) ones are available?

Dardania

JungleMartin wrote: »

Has anyone looked into non-US non-UCITS ETFs and whether accumulating (non-distributing) ones are available?

Interesting one...no idea if they exist, or where.

wasabi

JungleMartin wrote: »

Has anyone looked into non-US non-UCITS ETFs and whether accumulating (non-distributing) ones are available?

Any non-EU ETF will have the same issue of the KID needing to be available in order to access them via any EU broker, that is not specific to US domiciled ETFs - those just happen to have been the easiest ones to deal with taxwise. And I think all EU domiciled ETFs have to be UCITS.

XWD for instance would be an example of a Canadian domiciled ETF (tracking the MSCI world index). Isn't available on DeGiro anymore.

mugoo

Cute Hoor wrote: »

If DeGiro really have stopped offering the US ETFs to their customers (I'd be surprised if they don't eventually facilitate it) then you can set up an account with one of the US brokers (Firstrade, IB or TDAmeritrade), very little difference in trading cost, just means your account will be in $ and will have to be funded in $.

Is it easy to set up with a U.S Broker? Like can I transfer money from my Irish bank account?
And also is there any tax dealings with Revenue that I need to do? I basically just want to invest in Vanguard EFTs, hold them for years and deal with the capital gains tax once I decide to sell. Any help greatly appreciated

JungleMartin

wasabi wrote: »

Any non-EU ETF will have the same issue of the KID needing to be available in order to access them via any EU broker, that is not specific to US domiciled ETFs - those just happen to have been the easiest ones to deal with taxwise. And I think all EU domiciled ETFs have to be UCITS.

XWD for instance would be an example of a Canadian domiciled ETF (tracking the MSCI world index). Isn't available on DeGiro anymore.

Yes, I would need to use another broker. I'm not with DeGiro anyway as I'm only just getting into this whole area.

q85dw7osi4lebg

4% discount on VUSA this morning.

TripleAce

I wish I read this thread yesterday! I opened an account di De Giro last week as I wanted to purchase some US ETFs and started a money trasfer over the weekend just to find out they no longer sell US ETFs . No point in keeping the account, will have to transfer them back and open an account with a US Broker.

Stevie777

TripleAce wrote: »

I wish I read this thread yesterday! I opened an account di De Giro last week as I wanted to purchase some US ETFs and started a money trasfer over the weekend just to find out they no longer sell US ETFs . No point in keeping the account, will have to transfer them back and open an account with a US Broker.

Another issue to consider is that investing in US ETFs will create a significant liability to US Estates Tax.

TripleAce

Stevie777 wrote: »

Another issue to consider is that investing in US ETFs will create a significant liability to US Estates Tax.

Could you please elaborate? I am not sure I understand the impact on myself?

I checked the definition on wikipedia:
The estate tax in the United States is a tax on the transfer of the estate of a deceased person. The tax applies to property that is transferred via a will or according to state laws of intestacy. Other transfers that are subject to the tax can include those made through an intestate estate or trust, or the payment of certain life insurance benefits or financial account sums to beneficiaries. The estate tax is one part of the Unified Gift and Estate Tax system in the United States. The other part of the system, the gift tax, applies to transfers of property during a person's life.

JungleMartin

I'm no expert but, as I understand it: inheritance tax

i.e. If you have a large enough holding in US ETFs and you die, it may/will be liable to US Estate Tax.

I hope someone more knowledgeable on the subject than me elaborate.

Cute Hoor

Absolutely no expert on this either but this is my tuppence.

If you die and you have US assets (including shares) then you are liable for US Estates Tax, I don't know about exemptions and rates. However, imo, this is virtually uncollectible by the US authorities for non-US citizens. If I die (hopefully not in the near future) my co-owner of these US assets can simply liquidate the assets and repatriate the money to our Irish bank account. How would the US authorities be/become aware that I had kicked the bucket. If both co-owners are gone to the great trading home in the sky then the next of kin could simply liquidate the assets and repatriate the money to our Irish bank account.

Not sure if this stands up and would be happy to have this position challenged

Taylor365

"Based on the information you provided, you're not eligible to open a TD Ameritrade account. If you have any questions or would like to speak to a New Client Consultant, call us at 800-454-9272."

Well, i guess that's that.

Cute Hoor

Taylor365 wrote: »

"Based on the information you provided, you're not eligible to open a TD Ameritrade account. If you have any questions or would like to speak to a New Client Consultant, call us at 800-454-9272."

Well, i guess that's that.

What did you tell them?
I presume it's not because you are based in Ireland.

Shai

https://www.firstrade.com

excitementcity

Dardania wrote: »

I've setup a spreadsheet to try understand this issue over 24 years, starting from a notional E1,000 - feel free to twiddle the numbers, and let me know if I've made a bad assumption: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSeQni67A5rcgf8drQP8KgQIntNSibeG5KSKHX5PgR1TXnsvQ8jymFVGvvvD87f8SYJ0AuAoppVz6mu/pubhtml 

In some cases, the difference isn't so much, and in other cases it is disastrous for the UCITS scenario.

Having Accumulation type ETFs is essential in the UCITS world to be competitive from what I can see - in order to get a big spread compared to income type ETFs from the US.

Dardania just wondering if you have a downloadable version of this spreadsheet? Many thanks

Dardania

excitementcity wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I've setup a spreadsheet to try understand this issue over 24 years, starting from a notional E1,000 - feel free to twiddle the numbers, and let me know if I've made a bad assumption: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSeQni67A5rcgf8drQP8KgQIntNSibeG5KSKHX5PgR1TXnsvQ8jymFVGvvvD87f8SYJ0AuAoppVz6mu/pubhtml 

In some cases, the difference isn't so much, and in other cases it is disastrous for the UCITS scenario.

Having Accumulation type ETFs is essential in the UCITS world to be competitive from what I can see - in order to get a big spread compared to income type ETFs from the US.

Dardania just wondering if you have a downloadable version of this spreadsheet? Many thanks

Sorry, try this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgG5Oj_cq7dL8BJoeX8IMiAdk9XPYer5/view?usp=sharing - or if that doesn't work PM me

pan

Dardania wrote: »

Sorry, try this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgG5Oj_cq7dL8BJoeX8IMiAdk9XPYer5/view?usp=sharing - or if that doesn't work PM me

Hi Dardania,
thanks for the spreadsheet, I also want too rework the numbers a bit. But when I click on the link I had to request access to it (probably with you now). Alternatively, maybe you can make a copy of it on google drive - public permissions.
Cheers

excitementcity

Dardania wrote: »

Sorry, try this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgG5Oj_cq7dL8BJoeX8IMiAdk9XPYer5/view?usp=sharing - or if that doesn't work PM me

Hi Dardania, many thanks as pan said had to request permissions to access the document so I have sent that through to you. You might accept when you have a moment or as Pan said make public access. Many thanks

Separately: maybe you someone has the answer to the following?

With the UCITS funds:

1. What's the starting point for year 9 after you have paid over your tax in year 8? From your spreadsheet Dardania it seems to be the value of the fund in year 8 minus the tax paid? Is that right?

2. I rang revenue re losses but the guy I spoke with didn't have a clue. I have found conflicting advice online. If you are buying monthly and have a gain in year 8 in one month and a loss in the next month. Are the gains and losses offsetable as long as they are in the same fund and the same tax year? Or is it the case that the losses would just be 0 and you just pay the gains. I understand if they are in different tax years or different funds they're not offsetable.

3. If you choose a distributing fund, it would seem that the dividends are taxable at 41% also? Is this just paid on 8 years or is this paid in your tax return every year? Or how does the tax work on the distributions? I assume an accumulating ETF is the only way to go with a UCITS fund?

Thanks as always in advance

Dardania

pan wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Sorry, try this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgG5Oj_cq7dL8BJoeX8IMiAdk9XPYer5/view?usp=sharing - or if that doesn't work PM me

Hi Dardania,
thanks for the spreadsheet, I also want too rework the numbers a bit. But when I click on the link I had to request access to it (probably with you now). Alternatively, maybe you can make a copy of it on google drive - public permissions.
Cheers

I clicked to share, but after you mentioned there's a way to make it public, I think I have set that - download and tweak away! Let me know what improvements you make - I'm really trying to understand this topic myself for the same reasons as everyone else...

I'd also love to start considering the impact of higher TERs in UCITS ETFs compared to US domiciled ones

Dardania

excitementcity wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Sorry, try this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TgG5Oj_cq7dL8BJoeX8IMiAdk9XPYer5/view?usp=sharing - or if that doesn't work PM me

Hi Dardania, many thanks as pan said had to request permissions to access the document so I have sent that through to you. You might accept when you have a moment or as Pan said make public access. Many thanks

Separately: maybe you someone has the answer to the following?

With the UCITS funds:

1. What's the starting point for year 9 after you have paid over your tax in year 8? From your spreadsheet Dardania it seems to be the value of the fund in year 8 minus the tax paid? Is that right?

2. I rang revenue re losses but the guy I spoke with didn't have a clue. I have found conflicting advice online. If you are buying monthly and have a gain in year 8 in one month and a loss in the next month. Are the gains and losses offsetable as long as they are in the same fund and the same tax year? Or is it the case that the losses would just be 0 and you just pay the gains. I understand if they are in different tax years or different funds they're not offsetable.

3. If you choose a distributing fund, it would seem that the dividends are taxable at 41% also? Is this just paid on 8 years or is this paid in your tax return every year? Or how does the tax work on the distributions? I assume an accumulating ETF is the only way to go with a UCITS fund?

Thanks as always in advance

Exactly - that's my assumption. I'm advocating selling the entire fund holding in year 8, paying the deemed disposal tax (actual disposal tax in-fact), and re-investing. So the year 9 number shows gains accrued on the post tax year 8 number effectively.

With the distributing fund, I'm working on the assumption that these are taxed as part of normal income (the worst case scenario 61% I showed) each year for both the UCITS and US domiciled case. I really think accumulating is the only reasonable way to go with the UCITS case, as it enables compound interest to occur.

Taylor365

Cute Hoor wrote: »

What did you tell them?
I presume it's not because you are based in Ireland.

Just all my details as is.

Is there some hoop you must jump through that i'm not seeing?

What about tax numbers, etc.?

Help much appreciated!

delta_bravo

Just wondering now some time has passed what did people do since the ban on purchasing us etfs in europe? Did anyone move to UCITS or as it seems here did most move to a US provider?

q85dw7osi4lebg

I moved to UCITS. Going to sell all of them before 8 year deemed disposal and buy in again. Moving to UCITS cost a lot less than expected initially.

excitementcity

Yup I've decided to take the plunge with UCITS also. Think it's the best of a worst case scenario in the end

dublin2000

would anyone has any suggestions on specific UCITS funds to buy in? Thanks

excitementcity

dublin2000 wrote:

would anyone has any suggestions on specific UCITS funds to buy in? Thanks

I've gone with IWDA first. I wanted an accumulating fund so that ruled out the vanguard European ones for me. Its also in the commission free list. I going to add an I shares emerging market (eimi) to that but unfortunately not on commission free list.

I may also add a small cap. I'll need to research that a bit more. For now I'm going to not add bonds but hold that element in cash until I decide what to do. Don't think there's any urgency with that. Think that's how I'll structure things for now.

I have both of the above held in my self directed PRSA with Days too.

dublin2000

Thanks very much excitementcity! Does investing one lump sum rather than monthly investment make any different in choosing which fund to invest? because i see you mentioned that you're doing monthly investment.

Also, can you actually buy bond directly in Degiro?

excitementcity

I don't think so in the sense that as long as its a ucits fund you're going to be caught for the deemed disposal. If you invest in one lump sum and never add to it you'll have one deemed disposal. However adding monthly you will have the issue every month after 8 years. Saying that I want to invest on a regular basis so I'll probably just out up with it or hope things change in the meantime. That or might reduce to investing lump sums in a quarterly basis

TripleAce

I may be missing something here, please confirm if I am correct: on year 8 with UCITS you pay 41% on profits (I guess if you sell the fund earlier you pay earlier?). With US-ETFs the tax on profit (capital gain) is only 33% . 8% difference seems pretty significant to me, am I missing something?

dickface

TripleAce wrote: »

I may be missing something here, please confirm if I am correct: on year 8 with UCITS you pay 41% on profits (I guess if you sell the fund earlier you pay earlier?). With US-ETFs the tax on profit (capital gain) is only 33% . 8% difference seems pretty significant to me, am I missing something?

On US ETF's you do not have the option of accumulating ETF's and you must pay an extra witholding tax on dividends earned. You are probably exposed to currency fluctuations (not necessarily bad) and currency conversion costs.

ronivek

TripleAce wrote: »

I may be missing something here, please confirm if I am correct: on year 8 with UCITS you pay 41% on profits (I guess if you sell the fund earlier you pay earlier?). With US-ETFs the tax on profit (capital gain) is only 33% . 8% difference seems pretty significant to me, am I missing something?

I believe it's more like:

Irish Domiciled ETF: You pay the 41% exit tax on both dividends received and on capital gains. There is no PRSI+USC.
US Domiciled ETF: You pay the 33% on any capital gains and (assuming you're declaring your income) you pay your marginal rate of tax plus PRSI+USC on any dividend income.

Then you add the currency conversion and wire transfer costs on top of whatever broker and other fees when considering US Domiciled ETFs etc.

ronivek

dickface wrote: »

On US ETF's you do not have the option of accumulating ETF's and you must pay an extra witholding tax on dividends earned. You are probably exposed to currency fluctuations (not necessarily bad) and currency conversion costs.

I believe the withholding tax is only relevant if you're avoiding your tax liabilities to the Revenue: they will count the 15% against your total tax liability in Ireland so your net should still be the same.

excitementcity

TripleAce wrote: »

I may be missing something here, please confirm if I am correct: on year 8 with UCITS you pay 41% on profits (I guess if you sell the fund earlier you pay earlier?). With US-ETFs the tax on profit (capital gain) is only 33% . 8% difference seems pretty significant to me, am I missing something?

Yes, as the others have said it's 33% plus the tax on the dividends. So it's not just the 33% tax. But the major problem about the US-ETFs (apart from the fact that there are no accumulating US funds) is that it's not possible to invest in the US funds at the moment due to the new PRIIP's rules and god know when this is going to be fixed.

So unless you go through a US broker (and according to this thread it's not that simple to get them to take you on) it's not possible to do it at the moment. So the options are wait until it's fixed, invest in ucits, somehow invest through a US broker.....unfortunately, investing in Ireland is a massive headache. God bless the US where it's easy. But saying all that I'd rather have 59% of something than no gain at all.

ronivek

excitementcity wrote: »

So unless you go through a US broker (and according to this thread it's not that simple to get them to take you on) it's not possible to do it at the moment. So the options are wait until it's fixed, invest in ucits, somehow invest through a US broker.....unfortunately, investing in Ireland is a massive headache. God bless the US where it's easy. But saying all that I'd rather have 59% of something than no gain at all.

I just opened one through Firstrade fairly easily; my only concern right now is how to withdraw moneys without incurring fees which would somewhat defeat the purpose of going to all the trouble in the first place.

Gordon Gekko

Does anyone know how the 8 year deemed disposal rule works if at the end of the 8 years you're showing a loss on your UCITS ETF?

An example will probably explain my question more clearly:

I invest €10,000 at the start of year 1. The market does it's thing over the 8 years with the usual ups and downs. It happens that year 8 coincides with a bear market and I'm down 20% on my initial investment, so that at the 8 year anniversary my UCITS ETF investment is now worth €8,000. Clearly, I owe no deemed disposal tax, so I simply leave the UCITS ETF as is, and thereby it automatically rolls into a 'new' 8 year period.

My question is: does Revenue deem my investment to have started afresh at the start of the second 8 year period - and therefore do they rebase my 'acquisition cost' as being €8,000 for the purpose of calculating any gain in the second 8 year period?

So if for example we go through a phase of anaemic growth in the second 8 year term, at the end of which my UCITS ETF is worth €10,000 - do Revenue deem me to have made a 'gain' of €2,000 over the second 8-year term, and therefore hit me with 41% of the 'gain' made over the second 8-year term? Meaning I'm at a loss in real terms. Or do they look back to the original acquisition cost of €10,000 at the start of the first 8-year period, and therefore (correctly IMO) view me as having made no gain so far over the life of my holding with that particular UCITS ETF?

I can't seem to find a firm answer on this.

Dardania

Gordon Gekko wrote: »

Does anyone know how the 8 year deemed disposal rule works if at the end of the 8 years you're showing a loss on your UCITS ETF?

An example will probably explain my question more clearly:

I invest €10,000 at the start of year 1. The market does it's thing over the 8 years with the usual ups and downs. It happens that year 8 coincides with a bear market and I'm down 20% on my initial investment, so that at the 8 year anniversary my UCITS ETF investment is now worth €8,000. Clearly, I owe no deemed disposal tax, so I simply leave the UCITS ETF as is, and thereby it automatically rolls into a 'new' 8 year period.

My question is: does Revenue deem my investment to have started afresh at the start of the second 8 year period - and therefore do they rebase my 'acquisition cost' as being €8,000 for the purpose of calculating any gain in the second 8 year period?

So if for example we go through a phase of anaemic growth in the second 8 year term, at the end of which my UCITS ETF is worth €10,000 - do Revenue deem me to have made a 'gain' of €2,000 over the second 8-year term, and therefore hit me with 41% of the 'gain' made over the second 8-year term? Meaning I'm at a loss in real terms. Or do they look back to the original acquisition cost of €10,000 at the start of the first 8-year period, and therefore (correctly IMO) view me as having made no gain so far over the life of my holding with that particular UCITS ETF?

I can't seem to find a firm answer on this.

No firm answer myself, but my opinion is your second option holds true.
I understand the intent of the 8 year deemed disposal is for the government to get their hands earlier on the tax they will be due at the end. So it stands the reason that it is calc'd against the original 10k

excitementcity

Ron I've. Didn't know it was that easy to open the first trade account. That's interesting.

Gordon Gekko I have the exact same question and have been unable to find an answer to the question.

ronivek

Dardania wrote: »

No firm answer myself, but my opinion is your second option holds true.
I understand the intent of the 8 year deemed disposal is for the government to get their hands earlier on the tax they will be due at the end. So it stands the reason that it is calc'd against the original 10k

I believe it works something like the following:

1. Initial purchase of unit for €10000.
2. 8 year anniversary; unit is now worth €9000 and zero tax is due but you must still declare it and cannot use the loss for any kind of offset.
3. 2nd 8 year anniversary but now it's worth €12000 so you're liable for the same taxes ignoring any previous 8 year anniversary (i.e. 41% of the €2000 gain).
4. Before the next 8 year anniversary you actually sell at a price of €11000: you declare to the revenue and your tax liability is based on all previous 8 year anniversary events (i.e. your liability is 41% of the actual realised gain of €1000 so €410 euros. Since you've already paid €820 to the revenue for this investment your total liability becomes (€410 - €820) = €-410 and you can claim the 410 back from the Revenue)

TL;DR: The deemed disposals can be ignored when calculating the final tax liability when you actually sell: but you can offset any moneys paid to the Revenue for the current investment fund against your final tax liability and claim back any negative total.