Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2018 06:24PM

awec wrote: »

Ah come off it with the self pity now. A good patch? Leinster have been in a "good patch" for what, 10 years?

Short memory!

awec wrote: »

I never said it was just luck. I never said it was nothing to do with coaching. You don't understand the discussion we are having. I said Leinster have advantages that no other province can or will have, you think this is not true, and that Leinster are on an even footing to everyone else and the fact that Leinster are a country mile ahead is purely down to the work of Leinster Rugby. Everything else is irrelevant except for the Leinster coaches.

And I've asked you to prove it. The argument you're making, that the population of Dublin or the number of private schools in the province of Leinster, is a large contributing factor to Leinster's success... it simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Leinster's private school players have overwhelmingly come from 3/4 private schools while Ulster's historically come from 2 or 3... the same is true in Munster although they're less reliant in general. And we're now getting more success from our clubs, of which we have a fairly similar number to Ulster... so I said it'd be interesting to see the rugby playing population of Leinster v. Ulster.

I'm just saying rather than making easy claims, lets maybe consider whether or not there's any facts to back these things up. As of now there isn't really.

awec · 08-01-2018 06:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't want to put words into IBF's mouth but I think the advantages that you are referring to with the schools setup has been outgrown by the investment and emphasis that Leinster Rugby have brought to raising the standards within the schools from a coaching and player development perspective. This is all led by the IRFU but implemented by the provinces with a few exceptions.

If you were to say that in the 2000's Leinster had an advantage due to the availability of resource coming through fee paying schools I'd have agreed but then Ulster were winning titles back then and Leinster were the 'ladyboys' so whatever advantages are there didn't translate to the pitch.

What do you think has changed because it's still the same middle class and up kids going to the same rugby playing schools.

Why is the end product now better?

Leinster Rugby are better now at taking advantage of the benefits they have on their doorstep.

I've never disputed this.

I am not dismissing the input of the coaches, just saying that Leinster schools coaches have much more to work with than anyone else.

Squidgy Black · 08-01-2018 06:32PM

The schools system definitely plays a huge part.

If you look at the academies and the schools that are feeding the academies, Michaels with 600 pupils, Blackrock 1000, Belvedere 1000, Terenure 700, compare that to the bigger schools in Ulster like RBAI 1400, Methodist 1800, Wallace 1300, Campbell 900, and yet they don't produce anywhere near close to the numbers that Leinster do.

Whether that's Ulster Rugby not being as involved with the schools, or something to do with the academy setup itself, who knows.

You could also argue that Ulster would have a bigger base of kids playing rugby than Leinster. There isn't as much competition from GAA, and even soccer. Both sports drown out rugby quite significantly down South.

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 06:34PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Leinster's private school players have overwhelmingly come from 3/4 private schools

I'd challenge this tbh. The spread has widened quite a bit in recent years. Traditionally it would have been Blackrock, Marys and one or two of Belvo, Terenure and a.n. other. Now you've got Michaels, Andrews, the afore-mentioned St. Gerards, Newbridge and a constant drip from clubs around the province.

sydthebeat · 08-01-2018 06:34PM

surely kerry in football and kilkenny in hurling are the obvious beacons to show that history and culture are major major components in the success of sports teams.
Leinster schools cup is 130 years old. Therefore the base upon which the professional club provincial teams were built was already in place.
Nothing to do with money, or population.

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2018 06:40PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'd challenge this tbh. The spread has widened quite a bit in recent years. Traditionally it would have been Blackrock, Marys and one or two of Belvo, Terenure and a.n. other. Now you've got Michaels, Andrews, the afore-mentioned St. Gerards, Newbridge and a constant drip from clubs around the province.

Yeah it’s widened a little but some traditional schools have dropped away. It’s still very much focused on 3 or 4 for me, although I haven’t analyzed it to deeply. Gerard’s/Newbridge are hardly big contributors and Andrews might be a flash in the pan.

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 06:41PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The schools system definitely plays a huge part.

If you look at the academies and the schools that are feeding the academies, Michaels with 600 pupils, Blackrock 1000, Belvedere 1000, Terenure 700, compare that to the bigger schools in Ulster like RBAI 1400, Methodist 1800, Wallace 1300, Campbell 900, and yet they don't produce anywhere near close to the numbers that Leinster do.

Whether that's Ulster Rugby not being as involved with the schools, or something to do with the academy setup itself, who knows.

You could also argue that Ulster would have a bigger base of kids playing rugby than Leinster. There isn't as much competition from GAA, and even soccer. Both sports drown out rugby quite significantly down South.

Thanks for that. I would have expected that Ulster schools had enough numbers, but didn't know for sure.

I know lots leave to go to Uni in England, but you pick up academy prospects before those decisions are made, so it seems to me that there's a disconnect there.

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 06:49PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah it’s widened a little but some traditional schools have dropped away. It’s still very much focused on 3 or 4 for me, although I haven’t analyzed it to deeply. Gerard’s/Newbridge are hardly big contributors and Andrews might be a flash in the pan.

You could say that. Until the next one comes around. From Gerards having never had a professional player to having three from as many years: Kyle Tonetti, Jack Conan and Steve Crosbie, is massive and of course may never happen again, although Cormac Foley and Ethan Baxter are being spoken highly of.

These schools might never get another star through, but my point was also about how well prepared and developed they are. Even from the small schools.

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2018 06:54PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

You could say that. Until the next one comes around. From Gerards having never had a professional player to having three from as many years: Kyle Tonetti, Jack Conan and Steve Crosbie, is massive and of course may never happen again, although Cormac Foley and Ethan Baxter are being spoken highly of.

These schools might never get another star through, but my point was also about how well prepared and developed they are. Even from the small schools.

Yeah... but neither Kyle Tonetti or Steve Crosbie really went on to become Leinster players really.

I wouldn't put them in the same tier as the likes of Blackrock/Michael's. My point was that there's 3/4 schools in that tier who are producing most prospects. Even Kyle Tonetti was a Blackrock lad at the end.

The Lost Sheep · 08-01-2018 06:55PM

stl.ire wrote: »

Ulster U18s beat Leinster U18s twice this season, including at Donnybrook.

Under 18 schools. And it was first time in 10+ years or so Ulster have won at under 18 schools. The ulster u18 clubs are nearly always the weakest province and the schools side is still dominated overwhelmingly by a small number of schools

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's nothing really to do with Leinster Rugby, or at best it's partly through technical support from them.

Schools rugby is very competitive and well funded by the schools themselves. It's been gradual and happened over a long period of time. From the days when teachers coached through to now having dedicated professional coaching along with weights programmes and strength and conditioninig etc. If you want to compete, you have to ramp up the effort. That pays off with more and more schools following the blueprint and producing the players in schools that would never traditionally have had an impact.

Just look at Jack Conan and Steve Crosbie coming from a school like St. Gerards with perhaps only 40 or 50 boys in a single year. Or Roscrea winning the schools senior cup. These were never traditionally strong schools at rugby. Strictly Vinny Murray level at best. Or St. Andrews with Larmour and Porter.

But more than the spread of talent or the increase in competition is the condition these guys are attainiing at such an early stage. There's a video I saw recently of Larmour squatting 170Kg while he was in school.

But Gerards etc throw huge amount to get to that level. And thats great but if your parents cant afford those fee's and you live in many areas of Dublin what chance do you have? Club rugby doesnt exist. It does have a lot to do with Leinster Rugby and the clubs who's mini rugby programmes start most kids time playing the sport.
But this blueprint is an expensive one and not feasible for most schools.

prawnsambo wrote: »

But it's not a massive investment when spread over the number of years we're talking about. It's more of a mindset really. You have to actually decide that it's worth hiring professional coaches. I know of cases where the cost is spread between school and local club and the coaches work with both.

There are ways of keeping the costs down and still getting the quality up.

It is a massive investment though by and large to get to a competitive level.

sydthebeat wrote: »

surely kerry in football and kilkenny in hurling are the obvious beacons to show that history and culture are major major components in the success of sports teams.
Leinster schools cup is 130 years old. Therefore the base upon which the professional club provincial teams were built was already in place.
Nothing to do with money, or population.

But best schools in those areas were/are traditionally the diosian schools like kierans in kilkenny, brendans killarney, flannans ennis which were/are boarding.

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 06:59PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah... but neither Kyle Tonetti or Steve Crosbie really went on to become Leinster players really.

I wouldn't put them in the same tier as the likes of Blackrock/Michael's. My point was that there's 3/4 schools in that tier who are producing most prospects. Even Kyle Tonetti was a Blackrock lad at the end.

If you're basing that on Wikipedia, it's wrong. He finished school with Gerards but played his club rugby with Blackrock after leaving school.

I didn't say they were Leinster players, I said they went on to become professional players.

Also Blackrock get credit for players that join them for their final year in school, like Joey Carbery did. Even though he's primarily a product of Athy RFC.

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2018 07:03PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you're basing that on Wikipedia, it's wrong. He finished school with Gerards but played his club rugby with Blackrock after leaving school.

I didn't say they were Leinster players, I said they went on to become professional players.

Also Blackrock get credit for players that join them for their final year in school, like Joey Carbery did. Even though he's primarily a product of Athy RFC.

Ah yeah I hate that they do that, I'm definitely not going to defend Blackrock! Not really related to my point though.

08-01-2018 07:11PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you're basing that on Wikipedia, it's wrong. He finished school with Gerards but played his club rugby with Blackrock after leaving school.

I didn't say they were Leinster players, I said they went on to become professional players.

Also Blackrock get credit for players that join them for their final year in school, like Joey Carbery did. Even though he's primarily a product of Athy RFC.

That's just made up. I've heard Carbery referenced to Athy a hell of a lot more than Blackrock.

irishbucsfan · 08-01-2018 07:15PM

AdamD wrote: »

That's just made up. I've heard Carbery referenced to Athy a hell of a lot more than Blackrock.

I think Carberry does get credited to his home club but very often guys do not

errlloyd · 08-01-2018 07:16PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah... but neither Kyle Tonetti or Steve Crosbie really went on to become Leinster players really.

Steve Crosbies big influence was his dad, who coached him at a club level through minis. His dad is from Cork and migrated to Dublin for work. So he probably only backs up one of Awecs earlier points anyway

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 07:19PM

AdamD wrote: »

That's just made up. I've heard Carbery referenced to Athy a hell of a lot more than Blackrock.

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because it was not what you think it was.

prawnsambo · 08-01-2018 07:50PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah... but neither Kyle Tonetti or Steve Crosbie really went on to become Leinster players really.

I wouldn't put them in the same tier as the likes of Blackrock/Michael's. My point was that there's 3/4 schools in that tier who are producing most prospects. Even Kyle Tonetti was a Blackrock lad at the end.

I kind of got dragged off the point I was getting to, and that's that it doesn't necessarily need to be the big schools that produce all the players. They'll provide the bulk, but if the resources are spread out a bit, the others can ramp up the competition and start producing better players as a result. If it stays with the big three/four, progress just stalls and everything becomes a bit stale.

I think perhaps that's the situation in Ulster at the moment and why so few were making the breakthrough from academy to senior squad level. Perhaps it's changed, but it will probably take time for reuslts to come through.

Hands Like Flippers · 08-01-2018 08:05PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The schools system definitely plays a huge part.

If you look at the academies and the schools that are feeding the academies, Michaels with 600 pupils, Blackrock 1000, Belvedere 1000, Terenure 700, compare that to the bigger schools in Ulster like RBAI 1400, Methodist 1800, Wallace 1300, Campbell 900, and yet they don't produce anywhere near close to the numbers that Leinster do.

Whether that's Ulster Rugby not being as involved with the schools, or something to do with the academy setup itself, who knows.

You could also argue that Ulster would have a bigger base of kids playing rugby than Leinster. There isn't as much competition from GAA, and even soccer. Both sports drown out rugby quite significantly down South.

MCB Wallace and Ballymena are all mixed. Boys and girls. So their numbers should be halved.

RBAI is our biggest all boy school and do contribute to Academy. Last year alone prop, 9, 13.
Ballymena probably contribute the highest number on a pro rata basis. Last year alone, 2, 8, 9 and 12.

Hands Like Flippers · 08-01-2018 08:09PM

Watched Rock JCT v Ulster team recently. Immediately after a Leinster underage trial game.

Rock and Leinster forwards all comfortable running and passing. Offloads the order of the day. Different style of play.

Watched the same differences at the weekend in the L v U game.

Bridge93 · 08-01-2018 08:09PM

Yeah the potential playing numbers in the respective schools are very similar. Even if there's a slightly larger or wider player and school pool in Leinster it does not accurately reflect the chasm in potential pros leaving Leinster schools to Ulster ones.
The Ulster competition is even older than the Leinster one, never realised that.

The gulf seems to be something relatively recent. There's been a massive shift. I remember from my days playing that the best handful of schools in Leinster and Ulster were usually neck and neck. I lost as many games as I won on cup teams against theBelfast schools.
Something has changed where now the top Leinster schools are regularly beating their Ulster counterparts and the number of schools of decent standard has widened down here but not up north to the same extent

awec · 08-01-2018 08:12PM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

MCB Wallace and Ballymena are all mixed. Boys and girls. So their numbers should be halved.

RBAI is our biggest all boy school and do contribute to Academy. Last year alone prop, 9, 13.
Ballymena probably contribute the highest number on a pro rata basis. Last year alone, 2, 8, 9 and 12.

Ah yes, I was looking at the numbers and thinking there was no way those numbers are right, but you are correct that in Ulster we allow our young rugby playing boys to actually see girls on a day-to-day basis.

Which come to think of it, could be part of the problem...

Hands Like Flippers · 08-01-2018 08:14PM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The schools system definitely plays a huge part.

If you look at the academies and the schools that are feeding the academies, Michaels with 600 pupils, Blackrock 1000, Belvedere 1000, Terenure 700, compare that to the bigger schools in Ulster like RBAI 1400, Methodist 1800, Wallace 1300, Campbell 900, and yet they don't produce anywhere near close to the numbers that Leinster do.

Whether that's Ulster Rugby not being as involved with the schools, or something to do with the academy setup itself, who knows.

You could also argue that Ulster would have a bigger base of kids playing rugby than Leinster. There isn't as much competition from GAA, and even soccer. Both sports drown out rugby quite significantly down South.

MCB Wallace and Ballymena are all mixed. Boys and girls. So their numbers should be halved.

RBAI is our biggest all boy school and do contribute to Academy. Last year alone prop, 9, 13.
Ballymena probably contribute the highest number on a pro rata basis. Last year alone, 2, 8, 9 and 12.

Academy/subacademy

08-01-2018 08:18PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Did you actually read what I wrote? Because it was not what you think it was.

Apologies

awec · 08-01-2018 08:24PM

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

Watched Rock JCT v Ulster team recently. Immediately after a Leinster underage trial game.

Rock and Leinster forwards all comfortable running and passing. Offloads the order of the day. Different style of play.

Watched the same differences at the weekend in the L v U game.

It's a common complaint that Ulster schools focus too much on creating beefy gym monkeys.

I suppose when most schools are unable to, those that can will take the path of least resistance to winning which is basically to create teams that physically dominate their opponents.

Bridge93 wrote: »

Yeah the potential playing numbers in the respective schools are very similar. Even if there's a slightly larger or wider player and school pool in Leinster it does not accurately reflect the chasm in potential pros leaving Leinster schools to Ulster ones.
The Ulster competition is even older than the Leinster one, never realised that.

The gulf seems to be something relatively recent. There's been a massive shift. I remember from my days playing that the best handful of schools in Leinster and Ulster were usually neck and neck. I lost as many games as I won on cup teams against theBelfast schools.
Something has changed where now the top Leinster schools are regularly beating their Ulster counterparts and the number of schools of decent standard has widened down here but not up north to the same extent

Ulster Schools cup is the second oldest competition in the world.

The Ulster one is pretty much sewn up by RBAI and Methody who have won 15 of the last 20 schools cups. Other teams have won it, but you have to go back to the 80s to find a school other than RBAI or Methody that have won 2 in a row.

Which points to other schools being unable to really build success. And while some of these teams may have been great, I suspect there was also an element at times of Methody and RBAI having off-years.

mfceiling · 08-01-2018 08:26PM

awec wrote: »

but you are correct that in Ulster we allow our young rugby playing boys to actually see girls on a day-to-day basis.

Which come to think of it, could be part of the problem...

Wasn't a problem in our school when you saw the state of the girls there...

08-01-2018 08:40PM

This discussion got me looking at past winners of the SCT in Leinster - surprised to see Michaels had only won it twice. Their winning team from 2012 is insane:

St Michael's -- C Diamond; C Fagan (A Leavy 52), R O'Loughlin, R Kavanagh, C Kelleher; R Byrne, B Holland; A Barr, G Kelly, J Lawless (D Coulson 46); R Molony, A Coleman (S Harold 56); J Murphy (A Penny 67), D Leavy (Capt), D Lawlor.

Bridge93 · 08-01-2018 08:45PM

The 2013 team that lost the final was equally impressive. Swap 6th year Dan Leavy and Rory O Loughlin and add in 4th year James Ryan and Max Deegan. All those 5th years were a year older too

08-01-2018 08:47PM

Bridge93 wrote: »

The 2013 team that lost the final was equally impressive. Swap 6th year Dan Leavy and Rory O Loughlin and add in 4th year James Ryan and Max Deegan. All those 5th years were a year older too

Good few players on that 2013 'Rock team as well, including Ringrose.

Podge_irl · 08-01-2018 08:48PM

Leinster having better fundamentals that, all other things being equal, give them a headstart and Leinster investing smartly and efficiently into their future are hardly mutually exclusive concepts.

Bridge93 · 08-01-2018 08:49PM

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

Good few players on that 2013 'Rock team as well, including Ringrose.

Yeah Rock in 2013 were very like Michaels in 2012. Good group of 6th years with super 5th years.

Ringrose, Charlie Rock, Oliver Jager, Nick Timoney, Jack Power at Munster, Dave O Connor who spent a year with Leinster, Jeremy Loughman

Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

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