Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

irishfan9

MOD - discussion moved from the Leinster Ulster buildup thread

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great talent alright.

I wonder if we'll start hearing those GAA arguments for Leinster to be split up. The South Dubs split off to form the Cappucheensters while the North Dubs and the rest of the province move to Donnycarney.

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

durthacht

irishfan9 wrote: »

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

Hadn't heard that, but surely it would make sense to maximise resources? There have been national centres of excellence in major football countries for a while.

Would be a terrific discussion in the Ireland thread.

irishbucsfan

Our provincial academies already are national centres of excellence. A single academy would be less efficient.

irishfan9

durthacht wrote: »

Hadn't heard that, but surely it would make sense to maximise resources? There have been national centres of excellence in major football countries for a while.

Would be a terrific discussion in the Ireland thread.

there used to be a national academy in UCD, but irish rugby is too provincial plus not everyone wants to study in dublin.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Our provincial academies already are national centres of excellence. A single academy would be less efficient.

Yeah. Imagine trying to manage eighty plus players. And get them game time. Plus accommodating them all at one centre.

errlloyd

Do the ABs not have some sort of centralised academy system.

irishfan9

errlloyd wrote: »

Do the ABs not have some sort of centralised academy system.

not really, plus this is not new zealand.. provincial identity/loyalty a much bigger factor in irish rugby

errlloyd

irishfan9 wrote: »

not really, plus this is not new zealand.. provincial identity/loyalty a much bigger factor in irish rugby

I completely agree and would not advocate a change for cultural reasons. But equally I wouldn't rule out a change for practical reasons when a country with a similar amount of franchises, but a larger talent pipeline manages to deal with it

sydthebeat

irishfan9 wrote: »

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

why in gods name would that be an aim or goal of the IRFU?

irishfan9

sydthebeat wrote: »

why in gods name would that be an aim or goal of the IRFU?

so player movement between provinces is easier.

errlloyd

The concern is if you break provincial loyalty movement between the provinces will be easier, but movement away from the provinces will also be easier.

Rob Kearney is a classic example of a guy who is absolutely in love with Leinster, he'd never go anywhere else. Provincial loyalty doesn't just keep him in Leinster, it keeps him in Ireland.

sydthebeat

irishfan9 wrote: »

so player movement between provinces is easier.

thats debatable.

its also something that would be patiently to the detriment of the provincial clubs, so obviously they would be against it.

in my opinion provincial loyalty is a trait that does a lot more good than bad.
if one province wants to entice a player away from another province, then act like any other club and make the offer good enough.

As a fan I really have no interest in seeing 4 watered down amalgamated provinces. I support Leinster.

awec

I would say Leinster would be the most vocal against any such idea because they'd be losing their unique advantages.

Under the current model the gap between Leinster and the other provinces is just going to get wider.

irishfan9

awec wrote: »

I would say Leinster would be the most vocal against any such idea because they'd be losing their unique advantages.

Under the current model the gap between Leinster and the other provinces is just going to get wider.

and the provinces who can't develop their own talent the most in favour.. how many leinster players do ulster need to be competitive? a full starting pack?

irishbucsfan

I've heard a lot about this massive advantage that Leinster have recently. There's nearly as many rugby clubs in Munster as in Leinster aren't there?

Population != Playing population. Hence Kerry football. I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of playing numbers per province and county.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Ricky Lutton was very vocal about the non-native character of the Ulster line-up. Considering he was an Ulster player up to 8 months ago, I think it's fair to assume that others in the current squad would share his feelings.

Not just in the line-up, I'd say it's likely it's in more crucial positions than that (in terms of importance to recruiting).

irishfan9

Leinster have to deal with Dublin GAA which dominates most of Dublin bar the rugby schools. Even most of south dublin is more GAA than rugby these days.

awec

irishfan9 wrote: »

and the provinces who can't develop their own talent the most in favour.. how many leinster players do ulster need to be competitive? a full starting pack?

Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster

3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.

4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.

5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?

6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.

People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

Ulster?

awec

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster is not the capital of the UK. Ulster is also fairly unique in another regard that's not entirely positive.

MJohnston

Draft time folks!

Utah_Saint

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

Ulster?

there is about 300 000 people in Belfast...

Former Former

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster have the pro sport behemoth that is the Belfast Giants to contend with.

awec

MJohnston wrote: »

Draft time folks!

It would be hard to implement that sort of system given the culture of rugby in Ireland. People want to play for their own province first and foremost.

It would be a big task to get players to sign up to a system where they can be allocated to any province when they leave school. And fans would hate it as well.

Logistically it would be a nightmare, realistically it means the players still stay at their own province during school but can then move, which will still mean Leinster doing most of the work at that age.

I don't know what the solution is. I think Munster, Ulster and Connacht are capable of developing a sufficient level of talent that will need to be topped up with top-level NIQs and they could have good years and bad years, but Leinster will be miles ahead and the gap will just get bigger. Longer term, under the current model, Leinster are likely to turn into Ireland's elite club that are there or there abouts every year, with the rest of us aiming for a year or two of good players coming through allowing for peaks and troughs of competitiveness.

Utah_Saint

Former Former wrote: »

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster have the pro sport behemoth that is the Belfast Giants to contend with.

Is it a proper professional setup.  I've been to a few games over the years but never really thought about it.  The actually get decent crowds.  Bigger crowds that many tops teams in the Irish League (football)

irishfan9

Leinster have to compete with Dublin GAA in Dublin and they are probably losing.

awec

awec wrote: »

Ulster is not the capital of the UK. Ulster is also fairly unique in another regard that's not entirely positive.

It's the capital of NI, it's by far the largest population centre in Ulster, Ulster has a population not dissimilar to Leinster etc.


And lads there is not a single local lad in the Belfast hockey team. They are no threat to Ulster rugby what-so-ever.

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Is it a proper professional setup.  I've been to a few games over the years but never really thought about it.  The actually get decent crowds.  Bigger crowds that many tops teams in the Irish League (football)

The Belfast Giants are a professional team but the players are almost entirely from the US and Canada and other ice hockey nations. I think there's one person from Belfast who plays for them.

The problem in Ulster is the past political problems reduced our player base massively.

Utah_Saint

irishfan9 wrote: »

Leinster have to compete with Dublin GAA in Dublin and they are probably losing.

We have to compete with Golf.  Every kid wanting to be the next Rory or even G-Mac

awec

Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »

It's the capital of NI, it's by far the largest population centre in Ulster, Ulster has a population not dissimilar to Leinster etc.

Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.

Haha, noone is. Certainly Leinster, Munster and Ulster are all miles ahead of Connacht while all being fairly similarly supported.

awec wrote: »

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

This is actual nonsense, there are other professional sports in Dublin. It's almost as good a description of Ulster as it is of Leinster.

awec wrote: »

2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster

And if 99% of them played soccer Leinster rugby would be atrocious. You're throwing facts here that we already know without stopping to ask yourself if maybe a bit of context might help you to understand the question I've asked.

awec wrote: »

3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.

Not sure of the relevance of that either without some evidence of rugby participation rather than assumptions.

awec wrote: »

4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.

This is also entirely irrelevant if people moving to Leinster subsequently take up GAA or soccer.

awec wrote: »

5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?

Irrelevant again for the exact same reason.

awec wrote: »

6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.

You're basically repeating yourself here and it still hasn't become relevant.

awec wrote: »

People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.

Great. You've gone off on a wild rant here without reading what I said. If everyone in Dublin is actually playing football, red herrings like immigration to Dublin and the number of schools becomes completely and entirely irrelevant. There are huge swathes of the country where rugby is never even considered, meanwhile places like Limerick would be far more of a rugby city than Dublin is.

Which is why I said it would be interesting to see a breakdown of actual playing numbers... because the 50 or so rugby clubs in Ulster didn't just appear up overnight with no players or out of a lack of interest in the game!

I'm fairly sure Leinster's playing population would be bigger than the others. But I just asked if there's any actual evidence for it rather than people throwing these sorts of phrases around based on no actual solid facts.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

So... like Leinster?

awec

awec wrote: »

Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

Again I would imagine that isn't too different from Leinster. Every school in Leinster isn't a rugby school.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Haha, noone is. Certainly Leinster, Munster and Ulster are all miles ahead of Connacht while all being fairly similarly supported.


This is actual nonsense, there are other professional sports in Dublin. It's almost as good a description of Ulster as it is of Leinster.


And if 99% of them played soccer Leinster rugby would be atrocious. You're throwing facts here that we already know without stopping to ask yourself if maybe a bit of context might help you to understand the question I've asked.


Not sure of the relevance of that either without some evidence of rugby participation rather than assumptions.


This is also entirely irrelevant if people moving to Leinster subsequently take up GAA or soccer.


Irrelevant again for the exact same reason.


You're basically repeating yourself here and it still hasn't become relevant.



Great. You've gone off on a wild rant here without reading what I said. If everyone in Dublin is actually playing football, red herrings like immigration to Dublin and the number of schools becomes completely and entirely irrelevant. There are huge swathes of the country where rugby is never even considered, meanwhile places like Limerick would be far more of a rugby city than Dublin is.

Which is why I said it would be interesting to see a breakdown of actual playing numbers... because the 50 or so rugby clubs in Ulster didn't just appear up overnight with no players or out of a lack of interest in the game!

I'm fairly sure Leinster's playing population would be bigger than the others. But I just asked if there's any actual evidence for it rather than people throwing these sorts of phrases around based on no actual solid facts.

You are just being dismissive now for no reason to be honest.

"Ah but sure they could play soccer instead", as if this is some sort of unique problem to Leinster that mitigates these advantages or something.

I'd love to know how migration into Leinster is a red herring. Explain that one please, I can't wait to know how more and more people moving there and increasing the potential player base is not at all advantageous for Leinster Rugby.

Peregrine

awec wrote: »

Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

Yeah, same as Leinster so. Half of Dublin kids have probably never picked up a ball that isn't round.

errlloyd

Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.

The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.

Former Former

Leinster have better players in greater numbers because of the schools system. For every Tadhg Furlong coming out of Gorey CBS, there's five guys coming out of Michaels and Blackrock. The other provinces are never going to be able to compete with that.

FrannoFan

awec wrote: »

Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster

3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.

4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.

5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?

6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.

People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.

All valid points.

One big reason Leinster are stronger is the strength of the schools game. Lads come out ready for the pro game. The academy is essentially sub-funded to the tune of millions by the schools. Granted a lot of this budget goes to cover all children playing at various levels but they also ensure good strength and conditioning/video analysis/high level coaching.
More private schools in leinster (only 50 in the whole country) means more high calibre players. It isn't just from Michaels/Rock/Clongowes if there is a talent in Andrews/Wesley/Castleknock etc they are coached to a level to make the jump.

How many private schools in Munster? maybe 6? how many in Ulster?

Before people start saying i';m not giving the club game any credit- i recognise the contributions of Furlong/SOB etc in leinster but all the provinces have there club game contribution- Looking for key differences the strength of the schools game is an obvious 1

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

You are just being dismissive now for no reason to be honest.

"Ah but sure they could play soccer instead", as if this is some sort of unique problem to Leinster that mitigates these advantages or something.

No. I'm saying the exact opposite of that. I'm saying it's a problem that Leinster have alongside everyone else. In a city that is dominated by GAA and soccer.

And so the question is, rather than look at the provinces populations, why not look at their playing populations.

As I said, Kerry football's dominance blows a hole in your theory completely, numbers of clubs and players is very important.

awec

To put it another way, if you moved Ulster Rugby to Dublin and Leinster Rugby to Belfast does anyone believe that Leinster would ever churn out what they do today up there?

Would Ulster ever go from having a surplus of talent to a dearth of it?

Of course not. The idea is daft.

The Lost Sheep

errlloyd wrote: »

Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.

The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.

They are outliers and while the schools are doing a good job. The top ones are all fee paying and therefore out of range of a huge proportion of the population and in dublin because of the schools there is little rugby available if you cant attend one of those schools so a lot of kids who could be interested in rugby lose out.

Former Former wrote: »

Leinster have better players in greater numbers because of the schools system. For every Tadhg Furlong coming out of Gorey CBS, there's five guys coming out of Andrews and Blackrock. The other provinces are never going to be able to compete with that.

Yes the other provinces never will compete with that and shouldnt be trying to replicate the Leinster set up as its just not going to happen

dub_skav

I can see the setup to the gag, but I'm wondering how awec is going to work in the punchline of population density and socio-economic migration being all Nucifora's fault

irishbucsfan

FrannoFan wrote: »

All valid points.

One big reason Leinster are stronger is the strength of the schools game. Lads come out ready for the pro game. The academy is essentially sub-funded to the tune of millions by the schools. Granted a lot of this budget goes to cover all children playing at various levels but they also ensure good strength and conditioning/video analysis/high level coaching.
More private schools in leinster (only 50 in the whole country) means more high calibre players. It isn't just from Michaels/Rock/Clongowes if there is a talent in Andrews/Wesley/Castleknock etc they are coached to a level to make the jump.

How many private schools in Munster? maybe 6? how many in Ulster?

Before people start saying i';m not giving the club game any credit- i recognise the contributions of Furlong/SOB etc in leinster but all the provinces have there club game contribution- Looking for key differences the strength of the schools game is an obvious 1

This is a very good point. The private school system is a huge crutch, but there are a good few up north as well to be fair to them.

A good reason though for the provinces to help their clubs get to that standard as much as they can. At least outside of Leinster who may want to continue leaning on the schools' game as much as they can.

awec

awec wrote: »

I'd love to know how migration into Leinster is a red herring. Explain that one please, I can't wait to know how more and more people moving there and increasing the potential player base is not at all advantageous for Leinster Rugby.

There is a very small sweet-spot you have to hit if you want to be a pro rugby player, you have to be really good in 6th year of school basically. Of course there are exceptions but if you hit your early 20s and you haven't made it into a professional setup then you basically aren't going to. If people move to Dublin for their career say, post-college, they aren't really increasing the feasible population of people that can play for Leinster.

awec

dub_skav wrote: »

I can see the setup to the gag, but I'm wondering how awec is going to work in the punchline of population density and socio-economic migration being all Nucifora's fault

Nah it's not, it's nobodies fault, it's just the reality of life on this island. Well, I guess we can blame Bertie a bit.

Leinster do well to actually take advantage of their advantages, they certainly cannot be criticised. I'm just pointing out that I think the gap that exists today is only going to get wider.

FrannoFan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is a very good point. The private school system is a huge crutch, but there are a good few up north as well to be fair to them.

A good reason though for the provinces to help their clubs get to that standard as much as they can. At least outside of Leinster who may want to continue leaning on the schools' game as much as they can.

Leinster to be fair hire loads of RDO's and community development officers. I would think there are more in Leinster than in Connacht(granted a bigger population but Leinster looking to tap into that population) The game is growing in Louth/Dundalk etc. But it takes time.

I think the province will naturally be bolstered by the schools game but it is doing a lot to promote the game outside non-traditional rugby areas.

dregin

The ultimate solution here is obviously improving the rail network to allow people commute from across the island more easily. My loves of trains and rugby have finally been united. HURRAH!

irishbucsfan

errlloyd wrote: »

Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.

Yes. It's an absolute red herring. Very useful excuse though if you can get people to believe it.

errlloyd wrote: »

The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.

The schools are supported as well, lets not forget. They don't operate in a vacuum. We, at a 2nd-tier school, had Leinster coaches, particularly S&C, in regularly enough in 5th/6th year when I was in school, and that was a long time ago now. Players as well. When one of our coaches departed short notice to take a professional job we had help from them getting a replacement as well.

Much more so than the following year for me when I was at a Junior club, although that is better now.

irishfan9

The growth of St. Michaels into a professional rugby gold mine certainly has helped massively... their SCT team this year probably has 7-8 future academy players in it.

irishbucsfan

FrannoFan wrote: »

Leinster to be fair hire loads of RDO's and community development officers. I would think there are more in Leinster than in Connacht(granted a bigger population but Leinster looking to tap into that population) The game is growing in Louth/Dundalk etc. But it takes time.

I think the province will naturally be bolstered by the schools game but it is doing a lot to promote the game outside non-traditional rugby areas.

I'm very aware of this as a non-Dublin Leinster man myself. I'm personally very keen to see the focus shifted away from schools because I think its a little unfair that not everyone gets the same opportunity to play at that level. The dream for me would be an open competition with clubs v. schools but I'm sure there's great reasons it can't happen!