Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

irishfan9

MOD - discussion moved from the Leinster Ulster buildup thread

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great talent alright.

I wonder if we'll start hearing those GAA arguments for Leinster to be split up. The South Dubs split off to form the Cappucheensters while the North Dubs and the rest of the province move to Donnycarney.

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

durthacht

irishfan9 wrote: »

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

Hadn't heard that, but surely it would make sense to maximise resources? There have been national centres of excellence in major football countries for a while.

Would be a terrific discussion in the Ireland thread.

irishbucsfan

Our provincial academies already are national centres of excellence. A single academy would be less efficient.

irishfan9

durthacht wrote: »

Hadn't heard that, but surely it would make sense to maximise resources? There have been national centres of excellence in major football countries for a while.

Would be a terrific discussion in the Ireland thread.

there used to be a national academy in UCD, but irish rugby is too provincial plus not everyone wants to study in dublin.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Our provincial academies already are national centres of excellence. A single academy would be less efficient.

Yeah. Imagine trying to manage eighty plus players. And get them game time. Plus accommodating them all at one centre.

errlloyd

Do the ABs not have some sort of centralised academy system.

irishfan9

errlloyd wrote: »

Do the ABs not have some sort of centralised academy system.

not really, plus this is not new zealand.. provincial identity/loyalty a much bigger factor in irish rugby

errlloyd

irishfan9 wrote: »

not really, plus this is not new zealand.. provincial identity/loyalty a much bigger factor in irish rugby

I completely agree and would not advocate a change for cultural reasons. But equally I wouldn't rule out a change for practical reasons when a country with a similar amount of franchises, but a larger talent pipeline manages to deal with it

sydthebeat

irishfan9 wrote: »

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

why in gods name would that be an aim or goal of the IRFU?

irishfan9

sydthebeat wrote: »

why in gods name would that be an aim or goal of the IRFU?

so player movement between provinces is easier.

errlloyd

The concern is if you break provincial loyalty movement between the provinces will be easier, but movement away from the provinces will also be easier.

Rob Kearney is a classic example of a guy who is absolutely in love with Leinster, he'd never go anywhere else. Provincial loyalty doesn't just keep him in Leinster, it keeps him in Ireland.

sydthebeat

irishfan9 wrote: »

so player movement between provinces is easier.

thats debatable.

its also something that would be patiently to the detriment of the provincial clubs, so obviously they would be against it.

in my opinion provincial loyalty is a trait that does a lot more good than bad.
if one province wants to entice a player away from another province, then act like any other club and make the offer good enough.

Interested Observer

As a fan I really have no interest in seeing 4 watered down amalgamated provinces. I support Leinster.

awec

I would say Leinster would be the most vocal against any such idea because they'd be losing their unique advantages.

Under the current model the gap between Leinster and the other provinces is just going to get wider.

irishfan9

awec wrote: »

I would say Leinster would be the most vocal against any such idea because they'd be losing their unique advantages.

Under the current model the gap between Leinster and the other provinces is just going to get wider.

and the provinces who can't develop their own talent the most in favour.. how many leinster players do ulster need to be competitive? a full starting pack?

irishbucsfan

I've heard a lot about this massive advantage that Leinster have recently. There's nearly as many rugby clubs in Munster as in Leinster aren't there?

Population != Playing population. Hence Kerry football. I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of playing numbers per province and county.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

Ricky Lutton was very vocal about the non-native character of the Ulster line-up. Considering he was an Ulster player up to 8 months ago, I think it's fair to assume that others in the current squad would share his feelings.

Not just in the line-up, I'd say it's likely it's in more crucial positions than that (in terms of importance to recruiting).

irishfan9

Leinster have to deal with Dublin GAA which dominates most of Dublin bar the rugby schools. Even most of south dublin is more GAA than rugby these days.

awec

irishfan9 wrote: »

and the provinces who can't develop their own talent the most in favour.. how many leinster players do ulster need to be competitive? a full starting pack?

Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster

3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.

4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.

5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?

6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.

People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.

Interested Observer

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

Ulster?

awec

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster is not the capital of the UK. Ulster is also fairly unique in another regard that's not entirely positive.

MJohnston

Draft time folks!

Utah_Saint

Interested Observer wrote: »

1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

Ulster?

there is about 300 000 people in Belfast...

Former Former

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster have the pro sport behemoth that is the Belfast Giants to contend with.

awec

MJohnston wrote: »

Draft time folks!

It would be hard to implement that sort of system given the culture of rugby in Ireland. People want to play for their own province first and foremost.

It would be a big task to get players to sign up to a system where they can be allocated to any province when they leave school. And fans would hate it as well.

Logistically it would be a nightmare, realistically it means the players still stay at their own province during school but can then move, which will still mean Leinster doing most of the work at that age.

I don't know what the solution is. I think Munster, Ulster and Connacht are capable of developing a sufficient level of talent that will need to be topped up with top-level NIQs and they could have good years and bad years, but Leinster will be miles ahead and the gap will just get bigger. Longer term, under the current model, Leinster are likely to turn into Ireland's elite club that are there or there abouts every year, with the rest of us aiming for a year or two of good players coming through allowing for peaks and troughs of competitiveness.

Utah_Saint

Former Former wrote: »

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ulster?

Ulster have the pro sport behemoth that is the Belfast Giants to contend with.

Is it a proper professional setup.  I've been to a few games over the years but never really thought about it.  The actually get decent crowds.  Bigger crowds that many tops teams in the Irish League (football)

irishfan9

Leinster have to compete with Dublin GAA in Dublin and they are probably losing.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

Ulster is not the capital of the UK. Ulster is also fairly unique in another regard that's not entirely positive.

It's the capital of NI, it's by far the largest population centre in Ulster, Ulster has a population not dissimilar to Leinster etc.


And lads there is not a single local lad in the Belfast hockey team. They are no threat to Ulster rugby what-so-ever.

awec

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Is it a proper professional setup.  I've been to a few games over the years but never really thought about it.  The actually get decent crowds.  Bigger crowds that many tops teams in the Irish League (football)

The Belfast Giants are a professional team but the players are almost entirely from the US and Canada and other ice hockey nations. I think there's one person from Belfast who plays for them.

The problem in Ulster is the past political problems reduced our player base massively.

Utah_Saint

irishfan9 wrote: »

Leinster have to compete with Dublin GAA in Dublin and they are probably losing.

We have to compete with Golf.  Every kid wanting to be the next Rory or even G-Mac

awec

Interested Observer wrote: »

It's the capital of NI, it's by far the largest population centre in Ulster, Ulster has a population not dissimilar to Leinster etc.

Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.